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Nah this isn't proof of that. It's proof of social awkardness. It's proof of nerves. It's proof of inexperience, selfishness, a clueless man, a babbling moron. I don't believe it to be a sign of a monster. I get the "she wanted to leave and he kept at her" point, but not this. This is what I meant when I said I thought their weird date felt real to me. It was two socially awkward people having an awkward time, and I don't think we should judge him as if he were some lothario / typical leading man type. Would it make sense at all if Rocky was a total gentleman and wooed her with flowers and intellect? No, he'd talk too much and try to kiss her and tell her to spend the night. I probably shouldn't keep on this, because I support men changing their behavior, 100%. I'm not coming from it from the wrong side. But if we start pulling social awkardness into this, I dunno. *shrug*

What struck as a bit odd about the ending is that a few scenes earlier Florence gives this speech to Cosme about when she first started seeing St Clair and she hid bad reviews from him. Yet when he does it for her, and let's face it all the signs were there that's what he was doing, she goes and does it anyway. Dramatic licensing I'm sure, but having her talk about it the day before it happens just seemed like an odd choice to me.

Their date really came across as almost monstrous to me this viewing. I know it's supposed to convey Adrian just being an incredibly shy introvert that Rocky's natural bonhomie wins her over. But he doesn't have a phone, no one will hear her scream, he takes off clothes immediately, he locks her in, he slams his muscular arm against the wall to keep her in, his apartment is disgusting. In any other movie, this would end in sexual assault.

I like this description! I'm still listening to the episode right now, but Paul & Amy keep saying stuff that I hinted at in my longish Letterboxd note about the movie, from it not being so triumphant to the lack of "Hollywood" in it. I called it an early 'mumblecore' movie. I really like the realism, from the dirty streets and the dark apartments and train sounds and toilet flushes and even the weird date (I see Amy's flaws in it, but it also feels like how a real guy with no experience would pursue someone - clueless and selfish and inconsiderate). There is no 'gloss' on this movie, and that's kind of cool. I won't pretend to be a giant fan of Rocky, but "kind of cool" is about where I am on it (to piggyback off of grudlian's "kind of feel good movie").

It was kind of weird that in the movie, Kathleen walks out on St Clair, but Wiki says that St Clair married Kathleen after Florence died. I guess we can chalk it up to artistic license again.

Oh, I guarantee even if Rocky's motives were find (and I think they were) Adrienne definitely was not feeling comfortable with Rocky until after they were dating. Her reactions to him were pretty telling.

Oh I have all kinds of thoughts on how Adrienne is treated! Rocky's entire pursuit of Adrienne is all kinds of creepy. He is entirely unconcerned with who she is as Amy says he only talks about himself on the date. Going up to his house and pressuring her in and that whole scene was super uncomfortable. I never once felt she had any agency in the scene or in the movie. More than just it being 'the times' this was problematic.

I don't think it's meant to come across as predatory. I don't think that necessarily even crossed Rocky's mind. I'm not even sure if it crossed Adrian's mind. Although as syncasey said, the scene of Rocky holding the door shut features a look from Adrian at Rocky's muscular arm that is very uneasy. That could just be a shy woman on her first date but who knows? I'd be interested in a movie from Adrian's perspective but she stops wearing her glasses halfway through. So, the movie probably gets pretty blurry.

I was kind of rolling with it until he closed the door and held it closed. I guess Adrian is lucky that Rocky isn't actually a sexual predator.

Amy's opinions on Creed are technically true but I disagree with her. There's a lot of things that don't hold up to scrutiny or are awfully convenient. But you watch it and it feels right in spite of its logic issues (which is how I'd describe most of the Rocky movies). I'm not sure where Rocky ranks for me on the list. Keep it for sure and probably pretty high. It's just a great watch and it's a weird kind of feel good movie.

I agree. The movie would have had a much bigger emotional impact if we got a chance to see the different ways she tried to make it in music before, and how much it was a part of her life. Here, it's just, "oh, I need to take singing lessons . . . again." When did she take them before? Was she actually better before? FFJ is a pretty rich story that either got left on the cutting room floor, or was never really introduced at all, despite its run time.

And I’m fine with artistic license, but it should serve a greater theme. Something I think FFJ tries to do, but doesn’t really nail. It might be a bit cliche, but I think I would have started the movie with her recital for President Hayes. It would show how much true promise she truly had, and how that promise got taken away from her. This way, playing Carnegie at the end would feel like a more impactful moment than just enabling the delusions of a wealthy socialite.

https://soundcloud.com/fntsyviolence/landr-sadd-filmore-4-my-plugs

I could be reading too much into things, but I thought although Adrian was nervous, she didn't necessarily want to leave Rocky's apartment either. It's this little moment where Rocky has his arms on both sides of her and she sort of checks out his forearm: So sorry about the huge pic (and the odd screen grab), but I thought it was kind of hot. After they get down to the floor (and I instantly wanted to bleach the doorway), Adrian lets out a moan and I thought again, hot. Anyway, I didn't believe for a second that Rocky would have it in him to hold her against her will. I think he liked her too much. Also, Amazon trivia says that this scene wasn't shot the way it was originally scripted. Talia had the flu and was worried about giving it to Stallone, so she was very hesitant to kiss him. Her hesitation was reported a big improvement over the actual scripted scene that they kept it. Stallone said this is his favorite scene in the entire Rocky saga and both he and Talia Shire see the scene as a "birth-scene" for Adrian, where she is awakened to a new life.

I agree, but I also feel like that’s intentional. She’s specially written to have no agency and her journey is to retake it - which she does when she finally snaps at Paulie and moves out. She goes from this mumbling, caged bird, to this woman that’s willing to push and scream her way through a crowd to get what she wants. Granted, it’s not perfect since the thing she wants, as well as the source of her new found confidence, is a man, but it’s still something she wants for herself and actively works toward. I guess I personally feel like it’s that intention separates it from other movies that treat women like straight props.

Sorry, I haven’t listened to the episode yet so I’m not sure what they said, but I think this is right. I would say, while Rocky may not be intellectually smart, he’s got high emotional intelligence. He knows she’s too shy to talk about herself, so he talks about himself to set her at ease. No, it’s not the most romantic approach, but with these two, traditional romance wasn’t ever really in the cards. If he were to ask her questions about herself, at best, all he’s going to get are “yes/no” answers. Most likely, it would be unintelligible mutterings and quiet nods - which would be far more awkward and uncomfortable. Like he tells Paulie, they have gaps and they fit together. She gets him and he gets her. You just kind of have to accept that. So, yeah, I agree. I feel like their relationship is realistic in the sense that most real life romances are awkward and stupid.

Yea I'm torn there. I absolutely think we should reinterpret situations to modern rules, but I also don't think I read it as quite that predatory here. Not for this character, anyway. Thinking about this whole movie from Adrienne's point of view though is certainly fascinating.

Oh yeah, Rocky IV is SUPER cartoony. It's also basically a series of music videos with the thinnest of plots connecting them. That's probably why the details of it are seared into everyone's brains -- the iconography is so pronounced.

One thing about Rocky that comes up is the inconsistency of making it. There is a lot of conflicting stories on how scenes are filmed or even created. There seems to be a lot of mystery to what actually went down. One thing I read years ago online that I've never seen since (and can't confirm unfortunately and could be completely untrue), is the whole idea that Stallone demanded he play Rocky despite the producers complaining may not even be true. The gist of the story was that they never really balked too much at Stallone playing Rocky. It was a super low budget movie with little risk and, had a functional nobody made such demands, they probably wouldn't have relented. But the story of Stallone making his own rags to riches, underdog story just to make Rocky plays better. So, they just let it go and eventually it became the real story. A print the legend kind of moment. Again, I can't verify any of this and I can't remember the website. But keeping what we know of the making of this movie and how a lot of the stories conflict. Knowing what we know about Stallone being a revisionist storyteller of his own life, it's seemed plausible to me.

To look this good, just workout once every eight days for three days.

Also, in my reading up on the real Florence, she died following a heart attack that occurred in the weeks following her Carnegie Hall performance. My understanding is that the whole hiding of the newspapers bit and a bad review causing collapse, was all artistic license.

Can't wait to hear more of Joe Bongo on his own podcast, which is definitely coming soon!

I think a big part of the problem was the compressed timeline. IIRC the movie started in 1944, shortly before her death. In reality her performances had gone on for years. She started making records in 1941! I mean, just think about it. In that era nothing got done quickly, certainly not putting on grand performances in two halls, making at least one record and distributing it, hiring and rehearsing a new accompanist, etc. She died on November 26th, 1944. Even if the movie started on January 1st that's only just shy of 11 months to do all that.

PFT wanted to jump back into that voicemail and tell erybody what that hinkey was doing with the surveys so bad. Glad he got cuckblocked.