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Episode 177 — Black Students Acting Out


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#1 July Diaz

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 11:16 PM

Today Andrew & Noah Garfinkel discuss a teacher’s theory that white teachers take it too easy on black students who act out because they are afraid of being labeled as racists. Give us your thoughts Sociologists and don’t forget to keep leaving us messages by calling (323) 389-RACE.

#2 dlo burns

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:07 AM

I would say the opposite problem is true; the black kid automatically did it.

#3 Shariq Torres

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:18 AM

View Postdlo burns, on 20 June 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

I would say the opposite problem is true; the black kid automatically did it.



Just to back dlo burns on this point. I don't think white teachers let being labelled a "racist" stop them from bringing the hammer on minority children.

http://www.nytimes.c...shows.html?_r=0

#4 ComedyGangBang

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:26 AM

View PostShariq Torres, on 20 June 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:



Just to back dlo burns on this point. I don't think white teachers let being labelled a "racist" stop them from bringing the hammer on minority children.



I've noticed a pattern in your posts and I had to ask: you don't think very highly of white people as a group do you?

It's almost like you have a prejudiced view of white people based solely on their race........ :rolleyes:

That would be awful if it were true. I don't know if you are aware of this, but racism is a really terrible, abbhorrent and evil thing. :unsure:

#5 Shariq Torres

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:36 AM

View PostComedyGangBang, on 20 June 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:


I've noticed a pattern in your posts and I had to ask: you don't think very highly of white people as a group do you?

It's almost like you have a prejudiced view of white people based solely on their race........ :rolleyes:

That would be awful if it were true. I don't know if you are aware of this, but racism is a really terrible, abbhorrent and evil thing. :unsure:


No, I don't. But based on your posts, it seems that pointing out racist acts is being racist to white people. If that's the case, then you go might as well go post in the other forums because you're not going to learn anything here and everyone already knows your opinion -- its the same as the status quo.

#6 pbnews

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:37 AM

My ex-girlfriend is an inner-city junior high teacher, and talks about this ALL the time. White kids acting out get a million chances (especially from senior educators), whereas minorities are instantly kicked out of class/suspended/given up on.

She also complained that there was no respect or understanding for cultural differences by the mostly-white teaching staff (for example, the idea that louder, livelier conversation and "talking over" each other can be a cultural thing, and not necessarily a sign of a student being disrespectful or not caring).

The majority of people in education professions would likely consider themselves "liberal," but from the stories I've heard, there is apparently some underlying "expectation" that minority kids are bound for failure, which translates to a lack of patience with these students that contradicts the theory posited in this episode.

#7 imhatch

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:57 AM

View PostComedyGangBang, on 20 June 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:


I've noticed a pattern in your posts and I had to ask: you don't think very highly of white people as a group do you?

It's almost like you have a prejudiced view of white people based solely on their race........ :rolleyes:

That would be awful if it were true. I don't know if you are aware of this, but racism is a really terrible, abbhorrent and evil thing. :unsure:

yeah and whats the deal with black history month why isnt there a white entertainment television month

#8 Michael Wo

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

Is it OK for me to be racist toward people who use emoticons?

#9 Jengaman

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:12 PM

View PostShariq Torres, on 20 June 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:



Just to back dlo burns on this point. I don't think white teachers let being labelled a "racist" stop them from bringing the hammer on minority children.

http://www.nytimes.c...shows.html?_r=0


It's always the white teachers that hate minorities huh.
This is why it sounds like you hate white people.

So yes pointing out racist things that some white teachers do and making generalizations about all white teachers makes you racist.

Yo! You're a racist.

#10 Hyde Parker

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:03 PM

View PostShariq Torres, on 20 June 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:



Just to back dlo burns on this point. I don't think white teachers let being labelled a "racist" stop them from bringing the hammer on minority children.

http://www.nytimes.c...shows.html?_r=0

I really thought anyone who had even heard of this podcast had heard of this study (Please don't respond with snark to this, ST, I'm genuinely remarking on the cluelessness of "real racists" people who show up to discussions at least tangentially derived from academic discourses without any foreknowledge at all).

It's about as close as you get to a litmus test with regards to critical theory (yes, I'm using the term again). Either primary education is staffed significantly with crypto-racists (or individuals unknowingly acted upon by overwhelming and mostly invisible social forces) or black populations are subject to behavioral problems not seen as often in other ethnic cohorts.

Not commenting or arguing, just presenting a dichotomy to people who'll probably see this after the Besser debacle.

#11 Kevin Irmiter

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:50 PM

I think another very plausible explanation is the self-fulfilling prophecy. Educators expect bad behavior out of black students, so they act in a way that promotes bad behavior. This can include giving disproportionately harsh punishments and causing resentment, as well as skewing the data in that direction. It also can include being "easier on" black students. Like, instead of correcting them and trying to teach them the proper way to behave, the teacher might just ignore problems from black students because they don't think disciplining them will do anything.

It's more subtle than you may think. I'm sure none of the people doing this think that they're ebing racist. And many of them might not even consciously be thinking of black students as worse than white students. But somewhere in their brain, they are biased to expect bad from behavior from black students more than white students. So when a black kid acts out they're more likely to see it as a sign that this is a bad kid overall.

I don't like the "cultural differences" explanation very much. I maen OK up to a point it might explain why they enter a classroom less inclined to sit still and listen, but I think it can lead to the attitude of overlooking problems and not trying to teach proper behavior that I mentioned earlier. Black children are just as capable of sitting still and listening as any other race, and if there is a problem you can usually tell by looking at other factors about the individual that are independent of race.

#12 Garrett Brown

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:31 PM

Can it be made that every person is required to check a box that says "I understand that it is impossible to be racist toward white people" before posting anything on this forum? I feel like that would probably help discussion move along some. How much coding would that take?

#13 Hyde Parker

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:39 PM

No because then we'd be obnoxiously smug Tumblr drones. I mean if you want to villainize most of the country's population for existing that'd be fine but this is a podcast network and it isn't necessarily dedicated to your conceptions of social justice.

#14 .....

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:16 PM

.

#15 Hyde Parker

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:22 PM

View PostJoshie, on 20 June 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

it's not impossible to be racist toward white ppl so that would be a silly addition

bb-but i once heard a definition of racism on the internet that deliberately precluded racism against white people!

#16 Shariq Torres

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:57 PM

View PostHyde Parker, on 20 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

I really thought anyone who had even heard of this podcast had heard of this study (Please don't respond with snark to this, ST, I'm genuinely remarking on the cluelessness of "real racists" people who show up to discussions at least tangentially derived from academic discourses without any foreknowledge at all).

It's about as close as you get to a litmus test with regards to critical theory (yes, I'm using the term again). Either primary education is staffed significantly with crypto-racists (or individuals unknowingly acted upon by overwhelming and mostly invisible social forces) or black populations are subject to behavioral problems not seen as often in other ethnic cohorts.

Not commenting or arguing, just presenting a dichotomy to people who'll probably see this after the Besser debacle.


Primary is not staffed by crypto racists. It just proof that despite what deniers like you would have me to believe -- that racist practices only come from .0000000000001% of the white population -- that is a very widespread problem. Basically, education is staffed by people who are not going to give any breaks to white children, even for the same infractions. It is because the narrative of this country says that a white male's life is the most important thing on Earth and must be protected and nurtured. Meanwhile, the country says minority lives are not that important. That's why you can a random man gun down a black teen in Florida and everyone from the police to the district attorney all write it off. "He was probably up to no good anyway," they'd say. Where did those attitudes and assumptions come from? The media? Other white people? The racism fairy? All I know is that it exists and these are the manifestations of it.

#17 Shariq Torres

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:00 PM

View PostHyde Parker, on 20 June 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

No because then we'd be obnoxiously smug Tumblr drones. I mean if you want to villainize most of the country's population for existing that'd be fine but this is a podcast network and it isn't necessarily dedicated to your conceptions of social justice.


Villianizing large swaths of the country's population is what you're down with when you support the status quo, Hyde.

#18 Shariq Torres

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

View PostJengaman, on 20 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:


It's always the white teachers that hate minorities huh.
This is why it sounds like you hate white people.

So yes pointing out racist things that some white teachers do and making generalizations about all white teachers makes you racist.

Yo! You're a racist.


Also, when did I say ALL WHITE TEACHERS do X? I didn't. Hell, I didn't even imply it. I simply stated that the fear of being called a racist isn't going to stop white teachers from punishing black students and then gave a Department of Education study to back up what I said with real world examples.

Stop being so damned stupid.

#19 Kevin Irmiter

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:01 PM

This isn't something that only white teachers do, either. Plenty of nonwhite teachers have the same biases. It benefits whites in the end, of course, but since it is so subtle that most people don't even realize their biases are race-based, plenty of people internalize them even when it is to their own detriment.

And just to head off the people who say OH LOOK BLACK PEOPLE DO IT TOO THAT MEANS IT'S EVERYBODY'S FAULT NOT JUST WHITE PEOPLE, no it isn't. If a car gets in an accident, you don't say the people riding in the passenger seats are equally responsible, do you? No, you blame the driver, just like we should blame the people running the country for its problems.

View PostJoshie, on 20 June 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

it's not impossible to be racist toward white ppl so that would be a silly addition


"Racism" generally implies that it is a part of systematic oppression in which the dominant race is keeping itself stronger than the other races. Since white people dominate the USA, it is therefore impossible for racism (in this sense) against white people to exist in the USA, or any other country run by white people.

Bigotry and prejudice against white people can and does exist, of course, but it doesn't do as much harm or injustice as true racism.

#20 Garrett Brown

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:46 AM

Kevin is killing it.