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Episode 100 - Juno vs. Whiplash (w/ Franklin Leonard and Kate Hagen)


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Poll: Juno vs. Whiplash (101 member(s) have cast votes)

Which film becomes Canon-ized?

  1. Juno (47 votes [46.53%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 46.53%

  2. Whiplash (36 votes [35.64%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.64%

  3. Neither! (18 votes [17.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.82%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#21 Galactiac

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 02:10 PM

View PostHoldenMartinson, on 02 May 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

I don't know how familiar you are with that part of the country, but having visited there, and lived really close to Preston, ID, it's one of those rural towns where culture just doesn't catch up for a while, which the film captures pretty well. Also, did online dating exist in the 80's? Honest question.



The internet definitely existed in the eighties, so I'm sure people tried to date that way. This was over a decade ago so there's a good chance marijuana played a roll in my confusion.

#22 Jdhpiano

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 03:33 PM

This feels like such mismatch....there are two much better vs. episodes here (Juno vs. little miss sunshine, or black swan vs. whiplash).

#23 Susan*

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 04:07 PM

When Juno came out, I spammed my old message board complaining about it. A few years later, I saw it again and liked it. It's really grown on me. Yeah, like they said on the podcast, it was the style at the beginning that I focused on at first. It took me a while to recognize all the stuff it has going for it.

And I really liked Young Adult. I feel a little bad that it's the last movie I showed to a dying friend, but I can't help that. I thought it was more of straight ahead comedy when I rented it. :/

#24 Threshold

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 05:52 PM

View PostJdhpiano, on 02 May 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

This feels like such mismatch....there are two much better vs. episodes here (Juno vs. little miss sunshine, or black swan vs. whiplash).


Yep yep yep yep yep 100%
This paired with the fact "neither" is an option this poll is fucked.

I'd vote for both of these films seperately but being forced to choose in this bizarro sophie's choice in ehich the ultimatum itself really makes no sense, I'd have to go with Whiplash-
A tight film with multiple exceptional thematic throughlines. The editing, music, performances and direction are all laserfocused to create this unbelievably exciting film.

Juno's a fun film that I would've voted for if not for this nonsense, but even then it's not Reitman's best.

#25 MODOKbaby

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 07:23 PM

View PostRyan L, on 01 May 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:

Juno vs Whiplash; Or, Amy's weekly opportunity to bash La La Land

I can't wait for how she ties the Chazelle/La La Land hate into Shakespeare in Love.


I actually wish this would happen, as I remember Oscar season saw David Ehrlich lashing back at the La La Land backlash. And hey, it's probably impossible to talk about Shakespeare In Love without getting into its Best Picture win, so that puts them part of the way there. (But not as close as it puts them to Moonlight. ;))

#26 robert-cop

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 08:44 PM

This was always going to be hands-down Juno for me I couldn't have expressed Juno's canon-worthiness better than this episode did. But on a personal note, 2007 was the year that I really got into film and Juno was one of the cinema-going experiences that really opened my eyes. For most of my teenaged years, I would cite it as my favourite film and it's still up there. Juno all the way, home-skillet!

#27 Jdhpiano

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 09:06 PM

View PostThreshold, on 02 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:


Yep yep yep yep yep 100%
This paired with the fact "neither" is an option this poll is fucked.

I'd vote for both of these films seperately but being forced to choose in this bizarro sophie's choice in ehich the ultimatum itself really makes no sense, I'd have to go with Whiplash-
A tight film with multiple exceptional thematic throughlines. The editing, music, performances and direction are all laserfocused to create this unbelievably exciting film.

Juno's a fun film that I would've voted for if not for this nonsense, but even then it's not Reitman's best.


Downside both those as vs. episodes would be awesome, and a fun conversation worth having.

#28 Louisjab

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:17 AM

View PostLawbster31, on 01 May 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Why the hell are they adding a Neither option... the entire point of The Canon has always been "deal with it", and people complained and complained in literally every versus episode that there needs to be a Neither option. But now it's here to stay apparently.


I feel the same. Although I get the idea (single movie episodes offers the option of no movie joining the canon, while the versus doesn't), I think it hurts the concept of the versus episodes to have a neither options. One has to get in, so pick carefully. I'll go with Juno, because I don't think the last part holds up enough. I think it's a great idea that doesn't completely knows how to go from there.

#29 Robert Boberts

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:46 AM

This was difficult for me to choose, partly because neither is a shoe-in for the Canon, but also because this pairing has really nothing much in common to make it a good versus. There are tons of movies on the Blacklist, so that doesn't seem to be enough to pair them against each other. The only thing I thought going into it is that they both have JK Simmons. Whiplash is his better performance, but that still doesn't make me want to vote for it.

I think I enjoyed Whiplash more, but I just don't think it belongs in the Canon. I already rewatched Juno a couple months ago and I still like it. I'd be hesitant to vote it in if it were the only movie discussed, but I like the argument about it being influential.

I am glad there is a neither option, but I don't think I want to use it every time I can't pick a movie. I'd rather use that in extreme cases where I really dislike both movies. In this case, I do like both. I'm voting for Juno.

What the hell is twee though? I've heard this word on the Brett Easton Ellis podcast. I've looked up the definition, but I just don't understand what the word is referring to. What makes Juno's dialogue twee?

#30 Lawbster31

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 08:20 AM

By the way, why did Franklin bring Whiplash to the table if he was going to take the stance that it hasn't been around long enough to have made an impact? Why not pick a different movie from the Black List that actually *has* had an impact so that Whiplash can be saved for later? So confused by the pairing in this episode.

#31 0=Axel=0

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 09:52 AM

Whiplash all the way.

The only reason Juno has more of a cultural impact is because it's been around for seven more years. I guarantee that Whiplash will have at least as much of a cultural impact if not more of one by 2021. Even in 2014 and 2015, you could already see its effect. And as a musician, I could relate to this movie very strongly. The scene where Simmons tries out the new band students and puts them down one by one crushes me every time. Juno is a reprehensible movie not just because it inspired a bunch of crap movies but also because it abortion-shames. The last thing young women need is ONE MORE piece of media telling them that it's too hard and not to go through with it.

#32 joel_rosenbaum

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 11:46 AM

Listening to the episode, a couple of early thoughts

1) The intentional lack of swearing (e.g. in Juno) is a stylistic choice that has been used to memorable effect in a lot of movies/television. Obviously it's a practical consideration, but it can be turned around with good world building. A good example is Battlestar Galactica (the new one).

2) The reason why junior/immature films tend to age better is that the target audience grows older with them. Generally speaking, no one asks old folks about the films they loved twenty years ago.

3) I get the conceit of this episode, but it's really two independent episodes rather than one "versus". Might have been better off to run them as separate "blacklist" episodes? It's clear that Franklin Leonard has a great eye for screenwriting. I think it could have held up.

4) Jason Reitman has a better director's resume than his dad, which is remarkable given how (relatively) young he is.

#33 HoldenMartinson

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 12:41 PM

View Postjoel_rosenbaum, on 03 May 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

4) Jason Reitman has a better director's resume than his dad, which is remarkable given how (relatively) young he is.

Right? He has four near-great pictures, and two that aren't particularly good, but hardly terrible. Also, Casual is terrific.

#34 Susan*

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 04:53 PM

View PostRobert Boberts, on 03 May 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:



What the hell is twee though? I've heard this word on the Brett Easton Ellis podcast. I've looked up the definition, but I just don't understand what the word is referring to. What makes Juno's dialogue twee?

It's difficult to put into words -- it's one of those things where you know it when you see it. For me, the ultimate twee movie is Royal Tennenbaums. It's where every single little detail is very deliberate and designed, but it's supposed to look like it's not. It's supposed to look like cool doesn't matter and it's thrown together, old-fashioned, unhip, but it's actually letting you know it's hip and cool. You find it attractive while it's insisting that you shouldn't find it attractive. That's my attempt at a start. :P

#35 joel_rosenbaum

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 06:03 AM

View PostSusan*, on 03 May 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

It's difficult to put into words -- it's one of those things where you know it when you see it. For me, the ultimate twee movie is Royal Tennenbaums. It's where every single little detail is very deliberate and designed, but it's supposed to look like it's not. It's supposed to look like cool doesn't matter and it's thrown together, old-fashioned, unhip, but it's actually letting you know it's hip and cool.

I would argue that in a Wes Anderson movie, it's pretty clear that the details are supposed to be noticed. But yeah, Anderson movies qualify as "twee", largely because of their overt sentimentality.

I didn't realize that Bret Easton Ellis had a podcast. I'll definitely not check that one out.

#36 Galactiac

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:36 AM

Wes Anderson is the master of twee visuals. It nearly always works for me in his movies. Except for Fantastic Mr. Fox; that shit put me to sleep.

#37 sycasey 2.0

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 03:46 PM

View PostGalactiac, on 04 May 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Wes Anderson is the master of twee visuals. It nearly always works for me in his movies. Except for Fantastic Mr. Fox; that shit put me to sleep.


That's interesting. Fantastic Mr. Fox tends to be one of the Wes Anderson movies that even Wes Anderson haters find tolerable, in my experience.

#38 Threshold

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 03:20 PM

Does the Canon even matter now that Whiplash has been voted out?

#39 joel_rosenbaum

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:33 AM

View PostThreshold, on 08 May 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Does the Canon even matter now that Whiplash has been voted out?

Considering that Devin (while he was here) forgot what was even in the Canon on a few instances, I would argue that the actual Canon never mattered.

#40 HoldenMartinson

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 03:56 PM

View Postjoel_rosenbaum, on 12 May 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

Considering that Devin (while he was here) forgot what was even in the Canon on a few instances, I would argue that the actual Canon never mattered.

It didn't. He professed that The Canon is just an excuse to talk about what makes for great film. Sometimes that included episodes for films that were perceived, though undeserving classics, like Pretty in Pink, or The Shawshank Redemption, or The Lost Weekend. It's just about exploring the reputation of art, really.