Jump to content


Episode 176 - The Jazz Singer: LIVE!


136 replies to this topic

#41 Elektra Boogaloo

    Mistress of All Agonies

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 631 posts
  • LocationNew York

Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:07 AM

So he spent three months in LA and a year in TX? Why not make a movie about that? I mean I would think he'd be more of a fish out of water in TX than LA? (Assuming fewer Jewish people in Laredo, feel free to correct me.)

#42 Cam Bert

    Foreign Correspondent

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,304 posts
  • LocationOsaka, Japan

Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:20 AM

When Jess performs in blackface at a black club he wears his Star of David necklace, and yet when he's performing in Texan bars he does not. Read into that what you will.
My Howdy sense is tingling. Break out Google maps and my abacus...there's a C&O to be solved! And this time, it's personal...
(credit to Elektra and Cameron H)

#43 Cameron H.

    Cookin' With Potatoes

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,846 posts
  • LocationWerewolf Warehouse

Posted 25 November 2017 - 06:27 AM

View PostPollyDarton, on 24 November 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

Also -Molly is the FIRST WOMAN he meets in LA. He is so desperate to wife swap that he's like "YEP YOU'LL DO."
This is not about his rise to fame - oh no... this is really about a 39 year old man going through a midlife crisis.

View PostElektra Boogaloo, on 24 November 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

This is so true. It doesn't feel like "forbidden" love like the Second Opinion claimed. It was more like he couldn't be bothered to fuck anyone but the most convenient lady.

Also, I know very little about Neil Diamond so I can't contribute to the "is this accurate" debate, but I did Google him when the movie was assigned and saw he did break up with his childhood sweetheart first wife for an assistant who became his second wife. (Not his last.)


Sorry (again), I don't really want to be this movie's great defender, but I just wanted to give my two cents on these statements.

It's not that Molly is the first woman he meets in LA, it's that she's the first person (outside of Bubba) to not only believe in him, but actually encourage his talent. After a day, Molly gets fired from a job she's had for a decade (and worked tirelessly to get) because she believes in him so hard. Rivka can't even leave New York for two weeks to give him a chance to pursue his lifelong dream. That's fucked up. No one should ever be with someone who holds them as an emotional hostage. Your S.O. should believe in you. If they don't, and they are actively trying to sabotage your dreams, then you should leave them.

And just because a marriage doesn't work out doesn't necessarily mean that either person is "bad" and I don’t feel like divorce necessarily represents a moral failure. We don't know the whole story behind Jess and Rivka's married life, but I would suspect - if not "arranged" exactly - I'm sure it was...encouraged by their parents. And as miserable as Jess is, he never once cheats on Rivka. He doesn't "fuck the most convenient lady." He turns Molly down - repeatedly. Would it have been better had he slept with a ton of groupies first? The relationships between Rivka and Molly are supposed to be analogous to his feelings about being a Cantor and a pop star. One represents tradition, while the other offers freedom. It is all about that push and pull. No one is "bad " in this scenario.


Max: You know what? I can’t do this for another second.
Geostorm (2017)

"Pack up!"
Om Shanti Om (2007)

#44 Cam Bert

    Foreign Correspondent

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,304 posts
  • LocationOsaka, Japan

Posted 25 November 2017 - 07:21 AM

We were all so distracted by Neil Diamond in blackface we failed to see what was really going on in the club scene. The guys brought Jess over and told him they needed him to join them because they had an agent coming in and the agent was told they were a quartet and not a trio. If they couldn't tell the agent the truth couldn't they just lie and say the forth member fell ill or something? The agent might understand and come to another one of their gigs. If they thought that wouldn't happen and this was their only chance how did they expect the agent to react when they meet again and their lead singer suddenly changes to a different person with a different voice? Probably not great, so why not just explain the situation? Or if they needed Jess there because none of them could play guitar or sing lead vocals without throwing off the harmony why not just tell him that? Jess is a musician he'd understand. Why the lying and deception?
My Howdy sense is tingling. Break out Google maps and my abacus...there's a C&O to be solved! And this time, it's personal...
(credit to Elektra and Cameron H)

#45 Elektra Boogaloo

    Mistress of All Agonies

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 631 posts
  • LocationNew York

Posted 25 November 2017 - 08:46 AM

LOL at Cameron H defending this movie. Is it because you like how the white guy wasn't allowed in the Black club? (I forget which episode Paul called you a segregation fan in. Haha.)

I agree with you that I saw Molly appreciate his talent but I never saw him be, like, appreciative or surprised or moved by that. Maybe Diamond was trying to say Molly got him so much better than Rivka but we never see what Rivka WANTS from him. I mean we know she doesn't like LA but she never, like, pleads to have kids or whatever.

So like I saw why Molly was initially attracted to him (though I continue to be baffled as to why she stayed with him) but I didn't see why he liked her.

#46 Cameron H.

    Cookin' With Potatoes

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,846 posts
  • LocationWerewolf Warehouse

Posted 25 November 2017 - 09:28 AM

View PostElektra Boogaloo, on 25 November 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

LOL at Cameron H defending this movie. Is it because you like how the white guy wasn't allowed in the Black club? (I forget which episode Paul called you a segregation fan in. Haha.)

I agree with you that I saw Molly appreciate his talent but I never saw him be, like, appreciative or surprised or moved by that. Maybe Diamond was trying to say Molly got him so much better than Rivka but we never see what Rivka WANTS from him. I mean we know she doesn't like LA but she never, like, pleads to have kids or whatever.

So like I saw why Molly was initially attracted to him (though I continue to be baffled as to why she stayed with him) but I didn't see why he liked her.


*sigh* It was the mini after Bratz.. lol

Yeah, I don’t know why I’m defending this movie so hard. It’s not that good. And I get all of your complaints. I don’t know, I guess I’m just feeling very contrary this week. Lol

With that being said...

I think Rivka does want kids with him. Again, I’m not trying to say she’s a “bad” person, but they both definitely want different things. She wants to be married to the Cantor and teach at the shul; he wants to write “jazz” or “rock” music. I think she wants him to give up on secular music and settle down. I think this is the point of the scene where he rebuffs her advances. It’s not that he’s just being mopey. He knows that she’s thinking about children, while he’s afraid having kids will tie him down. Molly believes in him right from the start and that’s what he’s attracted to.

I think it’s all a big metaphor. Jess has a lot of sincere affection for Rivka/his faith, but his passion is for Molly/superstardom.
Max: You know what? I can’t do this for another second.
Geostorm (2017)

"Pack up!"
Om Shanti Om (2007)

#47 The Triple Lindy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 361 posts
  • LocationThornton Melon School of Business, Grand Lakes U

Posted 25 November 2017 - 10:08 AM

View PostCameron H., on 24 November 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

Ha! That's funny as I've never attended a church that didn't employ a full time music director. All the churches I've been to have been mid-sized, so I assume it would be similar for synagogues. If it's within their budget, and they wish to have one, then they'd have a full time Cantor.


I have a friend who was a canter at his temple in town, but it wasn't his job ... he did it because he was the rabbi's son. His temple was clearly much smaller than the fully packed New York synagogue, however.

View Posttomspanks, on 24 November 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

Speaking of the baby, I feel like Bubba must have been there for Molly during her pregnancy and after the birth of the child. So much that Molly named her baby after Bubba's favorite musician, Charlie Parker. (Or so I imagine)


WHY ISN'T THIS MOVIE ABOUT MOLLY AND BUBBA?

View PostCam Bert, on 25 November 2017 - 03:45 AM, said:

I think I hear my cue...

There was talk about the confusing timeline but it is actually pretty straight forward. So when Neil Diamond leaves New York he's initially headed to LA for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks he gets a call for a gig which is week away, and that gig gets him the opening act which is another week away. So when his wife shows up he has been gone almost exactly a month. They break up that night, and the next day goes and confesses his love to Molly. They start dating and making an album. After three dates, four recording sessions, and a weird dinner they become sexually active. When his father arrives he states that he's been gone three months, which means that Jess and Molly were only dating for two months and sexual active for a month and a half in which she got pregnant. Seemingly the next day he storms off and runs away. After he returns Molly goes to carjack the producer again at which time the producer states Jess's record went gold "a year ago." Clearly they couldn't record anything new after Jess left so mixing, printing, release and sales, say one month after he storms out. That means he was on the road for about 13 months. If we further assume the baby was delivered as expected, by the time he returned that baby would be between 5 1/2 to 7 months old.

So you were dead on!


Nice work, Cam! That's a solid timeline.

I know there are some parents on this board ... remember those first six months? The total mind-fucking conflict of loving and bonding and tending this new life who is also keeping you awake all night, shitting every where, and being a total chore? I'm trying to decide where I'd be emotionally if, after being on my own for basically my whole pregnancy and then raising this child on my own for half a year, I turn around during a nice quiet moment alone with my child on the beach to see the guy whose slack I'd been taking up for over a year.

Now, I know Cameron's going to point out that he didn't know that he was a deadbeat during the whole time he was being a total deadbeat... but notice how he acts when Bubba gives him the photo of the kid -- as though he were down the hall at the hospital on the day of delivery. There was no, "Holy shit, she was pregnant and I've been playing honky tonk music in Laredo for the last year?!?" There was no heavy realization of what Bubba just laid on him ... he laughs and hugs, and then he just shows back up and everything's fine, and he's barely been inconvenienced at all.

I gotta say ... I think I'd yell.

#48 The Triple Lindy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 361 posts
  • LocationThornton Melon School of Business, Grand Lakes U

Posted 25 November 2017 - 10:24 AM

By the way, I guess it never dawned on me while I was watching the first time but ... he's from New York? I forgot that immediately because the way he talks about home being such a dead end for him.

So this guy has been ho-humming around for two decades, cantering for a huge synagogue and writing songs for other musicians, and if we're conceding that he was probably also gigging and recording and hustling as a guy trying to make it in the business, but he never really had the chance to really go for it and achieve the kind of success that he does in the movie just because he's in New York and not LA?

No ... not at all. 20 years of hard work and dreaming gets you nothing in New York? New York's no less a music town than LA. If he was a guy with any real ambition to make it, he would've made something of himself.

Once again, this movie should really be about a secret relationship between Molly and Bubba who are brought together by serendipity in the form of a semi-talented but hapless musician, through whom they build both a career in the music industry and a family. Their mutual interests in keeping both her man and his friend afloat lead them to realizing the love shared between them.

#49 PollyDarton

    Lusty Bastard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • LocationHocksville, TN

Posted 25 November 2017 - 10:30 AM

View PostCameron H., on 25 November 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

Rivka can't even leave New York for two weeks to give him a chance to pursue his lifelong dream. That's fucked up. No one should ever be with someone who holds them as an emotional hostage. Your S.O. should believe in you. If they don't, and they are actively trying to sabotage your dreams, then you should leave them.


Yeah I agree with you on the "your SO should believe in you thing," but I have to point out that Rivka and Jess's father were right. They didn't want him to go to LA out of a fear that he would never come back and Rivka was wary of Molly because she thinks there might be something going on with between her and her husband... which is exactly what happens.
Isn't her skepticism valid if it is actually an accurate prediction of future behavior?

View PostCameron H., on 25 November 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:


I think Rivka does want kids with him. Again, I’m not trying to say she’s a “bad” person, but they both definitely want different things. She wants to be married to the Cantor and teach at the shul; he wants to write “jazz” or “rock” music. I think she wants him to give up on secular music and settle down. I think this is the point of the scene where he rebuffs her advances. It’s not that he’s just being mopey. He knows that she’s thinking about children, while he’s afraid having kids will tie him down. Molly believes in him right from the start and that’s what he’s attracted to.


I think we kind of agree on this (for different reasons) and I'm just being a bit of a contrarian myself, but I think he's trying to escape his life/wife by any means possible. Yes, he knows if he gets Rivka pregnant that it would complicate everything in his life... the life he is determined to leave behind ASAPMF.

But that aside, you're right about Molly - she believes in him and is light and funny in contrast to Rivka who is very serious and cold. I guess I'm just not sure that makes amends for up and leaving his childhood sweetheart after a month in LA. Does that make him a bad person?
Posted Image
probably not - Douche bag though? Yeah!

#50 PollyDarton

    Lusty Bastard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • LocationHocksville, TN

Posted 25 November 2017 - 10:35 AM

View Posttomspanks, on 24 November 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:


Speaking of the baby, I feel like Bubba must have been there for Molly during her pregnancy and after the birth of the child. So much that Molly named her baby after Bubba's favorite musician, Charlie Parker. (Or so I imagine)


YES! Bubba asks Molly if she has any Charlie Parker at the Banjo/Robert E Lee party and she's like "Totally brah!" and then they bond over the record. That's the beginning of their beautiful lovestory and THAT'S why they named their son Charlie Parker.

#51 The Triple Lindy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 361 posts
  • LocationThornton Melon School of Business, Grand Lakes U

Posted 25 November 2017 - 10:38 AM

View PostPollyDarton, on 25 November 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:


YES! Bubba asks Molly if she has any Charlie Parker at the Banjo/Robert E Lee party and she's like "Totally brah!" and then they bond over the record. That's the beginning of their beautiful lovestory and THAT'S why they named their son Charlie Parker.

Posted Image

#52 joshg

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 37 posts
  • LocationBoston

Posted 25 November 2017 - 10:48 AM

View PostElektra Boogaloo, on 25 November 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

Also she was his manager so she would have been out of work when he left? How did she survive? I definitely would not have dealt with him on a professional level ever again.


I believe this because Bubba looks out for Jess so much. I think he might just go around saving wayward white people.

How awesome would it be if the baby had been mixed?




I am relieved to hear people can think of better stories of Jewish identity. Because I worried that maybe Diamond was connected to the Jolson movie (even though it does not hold up) because there was so little portrayals of Jewishness on film.

I mean, we joke about lots of Jews in entertainment but we rarely see movies with Jewish characters.



The story of The Jazz Singer is how Hollywood treats these stories of the Jewish experience. The original 1922 short story has the protagonist initially ignore his father's wishes. "Jack Robin" is informed of his father's passing a few hours before the opening curtain, but he then returns to the synagogue to chant the Kol Nidre out of guilt. His future is left ambiguous, but he seems ready to give up his dreams to be with his family and people. The 1925 broadway play based on the short story ends the same way, but his father dies in the hospital when "Jakie" is on his way to the synagogue after he makes the decision to abandon the theater.

The star of the stage play, George Jessel, was signed by Harry Warner, the mostly Jewishly committed of the Warner Brothers and the only one born in Europe, to be the original star of "The Jazz Singer" movie. As the project evolved, though, Jessel's involvement fell through (he asked for too much money) and Jolson was hired, much to the relief of Jack and Sam Warner, who would control production of the film. Jessel was deemed too Jewish for a mainstream audience, and Jolson was a hugely successful entertainer and assimilated Jew: someone to whom the younger Warner Bros. could relate. It is then no surprise that the ending was changed, which, according to Jessel, was the real reason he would not star in the film:

"Instead of the boy leaving the theater to follow the tradition of his father in the synagogue, as in the play, the scenario had him return to the Winter Garden as a blackfaced comedian with his mother applauding wildly from a box seat. Money or no money, I would not do this version."

Harry Warner's granddaughter disagreed: "The end of The Jazz Singer was innovative in that it resolved a conflict familiar to immigrants of that time. Everyone gets what they want: the traditional father reconciles with his son and hears him sing in the synagogue, but the son goes back to be a success onstage."

So, if one were to trace the gradual loss of stakes through the various versions of this Jewish assimilation story:

1908 play, the basis for a 1940 Yiddish film "Overture to Glory": the protagonist dies, even after giving up the theater
1925 play "The Jazz Singer": the father dies and the protagonist gives up the theater
1927 movie "The Jazz Singer": the protagonist reconciles with his father before the father dies, eventually returning to the theater (in a minstrel show)
1937 Yiddish film "The Cantor's Son": the protagonist gives up America altogether, returns to his family
1980 movie "The Jazz Singer": no consequences whatsoever: the father cheers his son onstage

So even if there are portrayals of Jewishness on film, Hollywood seems to prioritize the assimilation aspect; everything is okay as long as the protagonist doesn't make any sacrifices for his religion. The earlier Yiddish films are obviously intended for an exclusively Jewish audience, and therefore make no attempt to assuage good feelings about assimilation and secularism.

A more recent example of this is Keeping the Faith, where Ben Stiller's rabbi character ends up with Jenna Elfman, even though the whole point of the movie is that he can't marry a gentile. The movie throws the audience the flimsiest of kosher bones at the very end, where it's revealed that she's taking conversion classes. Not that she'll definitely convert...she's just taking classes.

Here is the scene where the cantor actually dies at the end:



#53 The Triple Lindy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 361 posts
  • LocationThornton Melon School of Business, Grand Lakes U

Posted 25 November 2017 - 11:16 AM

View PostCameron H., on 25 November 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

I’m not trying to say she’s a “bad” person, but they both definitely want different things. She wants to be married to the Cantor and teach at the shul; he wants to write “jazz” or “rock” music. I think she wants him to give up on secular music and settle down. I think this is the point of the scene where he rebuffs her advances. It’s not that he’s just being mopey. He knows that she’s thinking about children, while he’s afraid having kids will tie him down. Molly believes in him right from the start and that’s what he’s attracted to.

I think it’s all a big metaphor. Jess has a lot of sincere affection for Rivka/his faith, but his passion is for Molly/superstardom.

Olive branch time ... the holidays are a naturally contentious time of year.

Posted Image

Anyway ...

You're probably not wrong to read the film as an allegorical middle-aged bildungsroman that opines on the choice between familiarity and obligation vs. dreams and desires. That's an age-old humanist dilemma that lots of great art touches upon.

The problem that Elektra and Polly are pointing out is that this movie symbolizes that great humanist dilemma by making it, in part, about a choice between two women, both of whom would have their own lives to lead and existential crises to deal with in the real world. Anyone who would treat another person as flippantly as Jess treats both Molly and Rivka would be a IRL douchenozzle.

This isn't really a generalization about women in movies, either ... I generally dislike stories that reduce any of its characters down to their basic traits in order to make them props in the protagonist's melodrama -- although it has to be pointed out again that these two women in question are very flat and static characters. Nevertheless, they are presented not as people, but as options.

Sure, real-life relationships are ended every day because the two people have irrevocable shifts in their life goals, but these things don't typically come out of nowhere. Yussel, however, just goes. He jumps at the chance to go with Bubba's band knowing that he's going to try to get his own career going, which means he'll prolong his stay as long past those first two weeks as necessary. By the end of those three months, he's not even happy to see her when she shows up because she represents the life he's actively trying to leave behind. That's a douche move. It's not Rivka's fault that Yussel comes to see their life together as a symbol of failure to achieve his dreams, and as an audience, all we see is him treating his wife like an obstacle in his path and making Rivka sad.

Likewise, if we take at face value that her attraction to him is genuine, then Molly has no idea that she is also a writ-large representation of this new life that Yussel is after. For all she knows, she an active player and partner in his life who believes their relationship will endure regardless of how their careers go ... I mean, they had nothing when they met, right? Not to mention the whole "giving birth to your child" thing. Then, practice goes rough one day because he's in his head about life's hard choices and he throws a fit and bails, not just on the career but on Molly, too. And she's left behind to pick up the piece of a life she was trying to build with him, too.

Basically, he's just selfish. He's mostly honest with Rivka about what he wants, but that doesn't make his actions unselfish. And sure, anyone can be selfish, but he never pays for it ... he gets every thing he wants, not just personally but professionally as well.

#54 Elektra Boogaloo

    Mistress of All Agonies

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 631 posts
  • LocationNew York

Posted 25 November 2017 - 11:46 AM

View PostCameron H., on 25 November 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:


*sigh* It was the mini after Bratz.. .

Sometimes we need a devil's advocate. Maybe add some more hoo-ahs! To your posts?

View PostThe_Triple_Lindy, on 25 November 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

WHY ISN'T THIS MOVIE ABOUT MOLLY AND BUBBA

I gotta say ... I think I'd yell.

Again, Bubba is the real hero. It should be about him. Would not be surprised to find he was like Molly's Lamaze partner and there in the delivery room.

View PostPollyDarton, on 25 November 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:


YES! Bubba asks Molly if she has any Charlie Parker at the Banjo/Robert E Lee party and she's like "Totally brah!" and then they bond over the record. That's the beginning of their beautiful lovestory and THAT'S why they named their son Charlie Parker.


I missed this! But adds credence to the idea that Bubba is "The Jazz Singer" if he at least has shown interest in jazz.


Can someone with better graphic making abilities than I make a fancy quote attributed to Sir Laurence, Baron Olivier, First of His Name or Whatever that is just "this piss is shit."??? I need it.

#55 PollyDarton

    Lusty Bastard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • LocationHocksville, TN

Posted 25 November 2017 - 11:49 AM

View PostElektra Boogaloo, on 25 November 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

I mean, we joke about lots of Jews in entertainment but we rarely see movies with Jewish characters.


If anyone is looking for more current Jew-centric (that doesn't seem right?) entertainment you should check out "Transparent" - despite the recent controversy with Jeffrey Tambour, the show has unbelievably great storytelling and it's just as much about being Jewish as it is about be transgendered.
Also see the Coen brother's "A Serious Man" which is about being Jewish in 1960's Minnesota. That's a great fucking film.

#56 Ryan Sz

    Technically a scientist

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,835 posts

Posted 25 November 2017 - 11:51 AM

I could not fathom why they didn't play jazz AT ALL during this movie. They played basically every other genre except for jazz and rap, even his backing band wasn't playing jazz in the beginning of the film. I assume the change happened because Diamond was cast, but who honestly could they have had in mind if not for him?
2018 DLM Challenge: 133 movies (120 new)
2016 DLM Challenge: 618 movies (478 new)
"I'm gonna fuck the 'Mind of Mencia' out of you!" - Paul Scheer
"Fuck you, I watched this fucking movie bro!" June Diane Raphael
"Everyone is a fucking idiot in this movie!" - Zouks
"How's yo dick?" - Nicole Byer

#57 PollyDarton

    Lusty Bastard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • LocationHocksville, TN

Posted 25 November 2017 - 11:57 AM

View PostElektra Boogaloo, on 25 November 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Can someone with better graphic making abilities than I make a fancy quote attributed to Sir Laurence, Baron Olivier, First of His Name or Whatever that is just "this piss is shit."??? I need it.

Ask and thou shalt receive!
Posted Image

#58 LTL

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 91 posts

Posted 25 November 2017 - 12:31 PM

As an actual black person I wish people would stop referring to his black make up as "blackface" ...also I legit love this movie and all the music!

#59 The Triple Lindy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 361 posts
  • LocationThornton Melon School of Business, Grand Lakes U

Posted 25 November 2017 - 12:57 PM

View PostLTL, on 25 November 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

As an actual black person I wish people would stop referring to his black make up as "blackface" ...also I legit love this movie and all the music!

Yeah, I try to remember to say "minstrel" whenever talking about this stuff, which I haven't even touched because I'm so baffled by every other aspect of this movie. Plus, some of you guys are holding it down well.

This movie came out the year that I was born, and in 2017, we might be gobsmacked by the "black club" scene in this movie, but I clearly remember watching Bugs Bunny riff off of Al Jolson and watching the Uncle Remus portions of Song of the South when I was a child. Minstrelsy was a major part of vaudeville, which all the early greats (Bob Hope, Bing Crosby, Lucy and Desi, Jerry Lewis, et al) were a part of. It's really interesting to see how ubiquitous the minstrel culture was in America, and how long it lasted ... it was only recently that Uncle Ben and Mrs. Butterworth didn't completely look like minstrel characters. Michigan J. Frog was the mascot for a major television network when I worked for them just 10 years ago. The makeup of just about every clown in every circus pays homage to Jolson's look. Hell, just about every college film studies class requires a viewing of Birth of a Nation. It's so insidiously pejorative and hateful, and its remnants are everywhere because it was so pervasive and accepted for so long.

#60 Cameron H.

    Cookin' With Potatoes

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,846 posts
  • LocationWerewolf Warehouse

Posted 25 November 2017 - 01:43 PM

View PostPollyDarton, on 25 November 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:



Yeah I agree with you on the "your SO should believe in you thing," but I have to point out that Rivka and Jess's father were right. They didn't want him to go to LA out of a fear that he would never come back and Rivka was wary of Molly because she thinks there might be something going on with between her and her husband... which is exactly what happens.
Isn't her skepticism valid if it is actually an accurate prediction of future behavior?


But just because they “were right” about him not wanting to come back to his dreary, passionless, life of emotional stagnation, doesn’t make it right for them to put a guilt trip on him and try to prevent him from achieving his dreams. I also wouldn’t say she was right about Molly since nothing happens until after they separate. While they were together, he was completely faithful to Rivka.

View PostPollyDarton, on 25 November 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:


But that aside, you're right about Molly - she believes in him and is light and funny in contrast to Rivka who is very serious and cold. I guess I'm just not sure that makes amends for up and leaving his childhood sweetheart after a month in LA. Does that make him a bad person?
probably not - Douche bag though? Yeah!


See, this is where I think people are being unfair to Jess. When I was in High School/early College, do you know what I wanted to do more than anything else in the world? Marry my girlfriend. I loved her so much it hurt, you know? I was totally dopey, stupid in love with her and she with me. Do you know what I’m super glad never happened? Getting married to her. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll always have affection for her, but it’s a fucking blessing we didn’t stay together. Because even though we were fully in love with one another, we weren’t complete people yet. We were trapped by the bonds of love. And knowing how we both ended up (her a hardcore Christian Conservative and me a Progressive, un-religious, Liberal), we would have either made each other absolutely miserable, or would have - like Jess and Rivka - had to deny our fully actualized selves.

So, yes, he separates from his wife, but isn’t that better for both of them in the long run? Their life goals are completely different. Like, when people break up, why does their always have to be a bad guy? Why can’t it just be that two people have grown apart or just plain shouldn’t be together?
Max: You know what? I can’t do this for another second.
Geostorm (2017)

"Pack up!"
Om Shanti Om (2007)