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Cameron H.

Musical Mondays Week 40 La La Land

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Bottome line: they are both self-absorbed, Mia is just more likable.

I think the problem we're encountering here is that in our minds this self-absorption is a terrible quality, and it certainly can be because we also see that is what causes the demise of their relationship. But it's also that same self-absorption that lands them both with their dreams so we can't exactly claim these are negative qualities if they still end up in the exact spot they both wanted. And as far as we can tell from what they show us in this movie, Shades and her have a perfectly fine relationship which goes to show that maybe it wasn't the fact that they were both self-absorbed but rather they were just not End Game.

 

Mia had terrible insecurities about her talent that Seb wanted to build back up, and Seb had his own head so far up his ass that Mia had to pull it out and show him what would be more successful than just what he was clinging so hard to. Those are both great things they did for each other that helped them land on their feet.

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With all this action, I started to think that at 12 pages this was some big, impressive thread that was starting to take on historic standards. Then I went and looked up our High School Musical thread.

 

32 pages!

 

http://forum.earwolf.com/topic/44961-musical-mondays-week-10-high-school-musical-1-2maybe-3/page__hl__%2Bhigh+%2Bschool+%2Bmusical__fromsearch__1

 

Good lord, we're monsters.

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With all this action, I started to think that at 12 pages this was some big, impressive thread that was starting to take on historic standards. Then I went and looked up our High School Musical thread.

 

32 pages!

 

http://forum.earwolf...__fromsearch__1

 

Good lord, we're monsters.

I'm now imagining a version of La La Land where Mia is walking past that restaurant and hears piano music being played, and walks in to see a mid-thirties version of

tumblr_inline_or74galHfJ1ui4bxv_400.jpg

 

I want to see THAT love story.

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Sure, he shows up....so that he can berate her and call her a baby. What a charming, charming selfless man.

 

You've brought up the "baby" thing again, so it must have been in a big deal to you, but if I may chime in, in the context of their relationship and the situation, I don't think it's supposed to be a hard hitting insult. Since the beginning, Seb has always had that cheeky roguish flirting style. Like in "A Lovely Night." They clearly have chemistry, but he says that the beautiful night sky is wasted on 2 people like them and says Mia is not the type for him.

 

It's like when my husband and I call each other "dummy" when we're joking around.

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It's like when my husband and I call each other "dummy" when we're joking around.

*Jason voice* We get it you're happily married

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*Jason voice* We get it you're happily married

 

We're no Mia and Seb though. We tried to take some tango lessons once and almost divorced right then and there.

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I think the problem we're encountering here is that in our minds this self-absorption is a terrible quality, and it certainly can be because we also see that is what causes the demise of their relationship. But it's also that same self-absorption that lands them both with their dreams so we can't exactly claim these are negative qualities if they still end up in the exact spot they both wanted. And as far as we can tell from what they show us in this movie, Shades and her have a perfectly fine relationship which goes to show that maybe it wasn't the fact that they were both self-absorbed but rather they were just not End Game.

 

Mia had terrible insecurities about her talent that Seb wanted to build back up, and Seb had his own head so far up his ass that Mia had to pull it out and show him what would be more successful than just what he was clinging so hard to. Those are both great things they did for each other that helped them land on their feet.

 

No, I totally agree. I think you have to be self-absorbed to make it in Hollywood. I think that's why so many Hollywood relationships (no matter the level of celebrity) don't work out. And again, going back to Seb, I think he gets that. Because he loves her, he wants her to go as far as she can go. He also knows she can't do that if she's worried about what's going on with him and his whole jazz club deal. And we see this in the movie to. In the dream ballet, we see that they are living much more modestly than she is in real life. The point being, maybe they could have worked something out, but she wouldn't have been the level of star as she ends up being. And, of course in the dream ballet, they realize, maybe that would have been okay.

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But why is this his responsibility? She's an adult. She wants to be an actress. What she's doing isn't working. All he does is give her another option and helps her through it. I don't know that he also needs to be like, "And now if this doesn't work, you should do this..."

 

I don't think its his responsibility at all to make sure she's responsible. I just think its weird to encourage someone to quit their job and not ask them how they're planning on paying for a theater rental. I know someone like that also encouraged people with 'don't think about it too much, just live it' and it usually didn't end well financially for the other people.

 

Here's the thing - I'm a huge planner. I have spreadsheets and color coded calendars for everyday stuff. Someone tells me not to worry and go with the flow, that's the first thing I'm going to do because in my experience THEY'RE not thinking about the details. So two people in a couple just living in the moment, living their art, are probably going to drive me a little crazy.

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I think you're giving her too much of the benefit of the doubt. We just saw her sad and lonely and wanting to be with him. She then finds out that this is what it's going to be and she's like, "OMG is this my life forever?" She is being passive-aggressive. She's pretending like it's out of a concern for him when it's really she wants him to be there with her. This is all in the movie. The scene right before it and in the conversation itself.

I don't see her as passive aggressive at all. I see her as saying, "You've been complaining the WHOLE TIME I've known you about doing this. Are you sure this is what you want to do forever?"

 

Yes! He's saying something shitty because he knows she's right! He doesn't want to be doing this, but he's doing it (at least in his mind) for her. If you have a job you don't want to be doing and putting off your dream, the last thing you need to hear is someone telling you how you're wasting your life.

Maybe it's just "tough love" :rolleyes:

 

Also, while what he says is shitty, he's not exactly lying either.

How so?

 

I would need specific scenes. Aside from that one scene, when has he let her down or not been there for her?

I said she's not a priority. This could be because most of the time, we're seeing his rise (Mia's career really takes the back seat until the third act). But, yes, he's supporting her financially...because she's doing the thing he told her to do! And I also think you are totally underplaying how big of a deal him missing her show was. It's literally THE THING she's been working towards for the bulk of the movie. He's too caught up in his own shit to even make it.

 

We don't SEE him be there for her the way that she is for him every single step of the way in his career. It's not that he misses a bunch of performances or something; it's that we literally don't see him being the kind of support that she is.

 

It's tough love! She has given up! Sometimes you need some to tell you "Stop being an asshole and get your shit together." How is he being "selfish" here? What is he getting out of this? Please feel free to quote the movie.

I guess you and I see that scene very differently. I don't really think berating people has anything to do with "love."

 

And I also didn't claim this scene was him being selfish. But it is definitely him being an asshole.

 

I already outlined in my previous post how he has been there for him throughout the movie. So, again, please tell me specific examples of when he is not there for her throughout the movie.

 

Bottome line: they are both self-absorbed, Mia is just more likable.

I don't think anyone has said she's not self-absorbed, but you seem to take exception to us pointing out all the shitty things Seb does in the movie, which is (again) by and large a byproduct of him being the focal point of most of the film.

 

And I don't know what you're looking for when you tell me to give you "specific scenes/examples" when my whole point is that those scenes don't exist.

 

I'm fine accepting that Mia is selfish, but painting Seb as some kind of hero that's up on a cross for Mia's success is a really wild read on that character.

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I don't think its his responsibility at all to make sure she's responsible. I just think its weird to encourage someone to quit their job and not ask them how they're planning on paying for a theater rental. I know someone like that also encouraged people with 'don't think about it too much, just live it' and it usually didn't end well financially for the other people.

 

Here's the thing - I'm a huge planner. I have spreadsheets and color coded calendars for everyday stuff. Someone tells me not to worry and go with the flow, that's the first thing I'm going to do because in my experience THEY'RE not thinking about the details. So two people in a couple just living in the moment, living their art, are probably going to drive me a little crazy.

 

I get that, and honestly, I’m a planner and a worrier, too. I think, from Seb’s perspective, you have to be all in. There can’t be any half-measures. Also, by the time she quits her job, he’s making that cool 52k. So I guess as long as they’re together, the risk for her is minimal.

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I was hot on the post button there, but I totally get wanted to look at her with more of a microscopic view, but other than that one fight do we really have a sense that she's also a garbage person?

 

How about that time she completely forgot about dinner plans with her boyfriend and his brother. Then she runs out during the middle of dinner with just a "sorry" to go watch a movie with Seb? Maybe not a "garbage person," but still rude.

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I keep contributing nonsense jokes to these fascinating discussions. My apologies.

Hey, that's MY shtick! Now what am I going to do?

(It's cool. You were here before I was.)

FineEnlightenedBird-size_restricted.gif

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How about that time she completely forgot about dinner plans with her boyfriend and his brother. Then she runs out during the middle of dinner with just a "sorry" to go watch a movie with Seb? Maybe not a "garbage person," but still rude.

Oh yeah that was totally rude, but cmon were any of us truly rooting for that guy? ;) (LOOK CAKEBUG I WINKED)

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With all this action, I started to think that at 12 pages this was some big, impressive thread that was starting to take on historic standards. Then I went and looked up our High School Musical thread.

 

32 pages!

 

http://forum.earwolf...__fromsearch__1

 

Good lord, we're monsters.

It's only Wednesday, man. We've got some time :)

 

Now, where do we get two more LLLs to keep this going?

 

(PS - I <3 that thread)

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It's only Wednesday, man. We've got some time :)

 

Now, where do we get two more LLLs to keep this going?

 

(PS - I <3 that thread)

Working on my Mia/Kelci fanfic as we speak. It'll cover 20 pages easy.

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I'm fine accepting that Mia is selfish, but painting Seb as some kind of hero that's up on a cross for Mia's success is a really wild read on that character.

 

I'm not! Like Cake said, we've gone 11 pages of people saying what a shithead Seb is. That's right. He is a shithead! That's the point of his fucking character! He's written that way. We're not supposed to like him. He evolves! (If you'll let him, I guess) I'm not raising Seb on a cross, but I'm not ready to raise Mia on a cross either.

 

As far as the "on my ass" line, it's true because as soon as he finds success, we see her get more and more depressed. It's human nature. She's scared and lonely (probably a little bit jealous) and he's not there. He's off playing in a band he doesn't even like. Why are you doing something you hate rather than be here with me? And that's a huge problem in real life relationships. A lot of relationships have issues when, say, a person is working 18 hour days but they never see their family. In that person's mind, they are being supportive because they are providing financial support, but to the other members of the family, they just want them around more.

 

I asked you to cite examples of him not being there and you said, "You can't because the scenes aren't there." Exactly! You're just saying that "he's not supportive" without evidence. I am pointing to specific examples of when he is there for her and you can't give me a single example of him not being there - except for the big one. So how can you say that he's not? The evidence suggests otherwise. I want facts, not feelings.

 

As far as calling him "selfish" in that scene, you're right. You called him a "charming, charming selfless man." I have no idea where I got "selfish" from.

 

Anyway, I like both the characters. Just because I can find it in my heart to sympathize for Seb doesn't mean I hate Mia. It's not one against the other.

 

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I asked you to cite examples of him not being there and you said, "You can't because the scenes aren't there." Exactly! You're just saying that "he's not supportive" without evidence. I am pointing to specific examples of hen he is there for her and you can't give me a single example of him not being there except for the big one. So how can you say that he's not? The evidence suggests otherwise. I want facts, not feelings.

Yes, and I don't agree with most of those examples showing him being all that supportive (as evidenced by the fact that I said as much to each of them). My point is that we SEE Mia be there for him repeatedly. But we don't SEE him there for her in the same way. That's the whole point. There are no examples to give because he's just.....not there.

 

As far as calling him "selfish" in that scene, you're right. You called him a "charming, charming selfless man." I have no idea where I got "selfish" from.

Which was in response to you using the scene to show that it was a selfless task he was doing.

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It's only Wednesday, man. We've got some time :)

 

Now, where do we get two more LLLs to keep this going?

 

(PS - I <3 that thread)

We could watch Guy and Madeline on a Park Bench.

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I want to address this point... (Before my NOTES' POST ) when I watched LLL for the second time (there were false starts from Sunday all through Tuesday night) I perceived that the movie wanted us to see the setup that Mia could just bail on her 1 month boyfriend, his brother and his brother's girlfriend/wife just to go see Rebel without a cause with Seb but Seb on the other hand didn't do the same for a far more important event when Mia had her play... Of course it's like comparing oranges with apples but the movie clearly has 2 scenes where Mia and Seb get reminded of an event and they both attend reluctantly when they had plans that same night but only Mia bails and arrives for the opening credits while Seb extensive lip biting took so much time that he missed the play altogether... (Also there is a tracking shot that mimics the one we see from Rebel without a cause when the car approaches the Observatory Damien ripped off Rebel as well)

 

 

Welcome back, Max!

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Yes, and I don't agree with most of those examples showing him being all that supportive (as evidenced by the fact that I said as much to each of them). My point is that we SEE Mia be there for him repeatedly. But we don't SEE him there for her in the same way. That's the whole point. There are no examples to give because he's just.....not there.

 

Look, the thing is you can disagree with me all you want. I’m willing to listen. I’m willing to admit I’m wrong. No problem. But if you say, “He’s not supportive” and I say, “I don’t agree here are multiple examples from the movie where I feel like he’s being supportive” you can’t just say, “I don’t feel the same way” and leave it at that. Make an argument. Use examples. Prove me wrong. I’m not saying I’m right. However, what I can do is cite examples, quote characters, and post screen shots to help support my point.

 

For example, let’s say I go into Cake’s classroom and I write a paper called “Othello’s Iago was a Goat Fucking Alien from Outer Space.” If I go in and say “He just feels like an alien goat-fucker to me” I’m going to flunk that shit hard. But if I can use evidence from the text to make a compelling argument, there’s a good chance I could actually ace it - even if I’m dead wrong. My point is, right or wrong, I have evidence. Even if I’m way off base, you haven’t shown me anything to contradict what I’m saying

 

Also, just curious, could you give me some examples of her supporting him? I’m genuinely not trying to be a dick. We see her at a couple shows, but I can’t really think of a moment where she says, “Go for it, bro!”

 

Because that’s another thing, before we get into another round of “she’s always there/he never is,” we really do have to consider the nature of their chosen vocations. For example, I don’t think it’s customary for actresses to bring their boyfriends to auditions. He is there for her afterwards though. And, as someone who does some writing, if my wife were sitting over my shoulder asking me how the writing was going all the time, it would piss me the Hell off. Sometimes just giving people space to do their thing is being supportive. Not annoying someone while they are writing is just as supportive as attending a musician’s show. The important thing is - when she’s done - he’s there to see her perform it and give her tips and advice.

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It’s literally THE THING she's been working towards for the bulk of the movie. He's too caught up in his own shit to even make it.

 

I addressed this earlier but I think it’s worth underscoring. That is not what happens. He’s on his way to her show. He’s not so caught up in his shit to make it; he’s too caught up in Mia that he forgot a goddamn photo shoot! I mean, think about that for a second. You’ve struggled for years in your chosen field. You’re finally getting some success. You’re actually going to be featured in Jazzman magazine (or whatever the fuck) and you forget all about it because you’re focused on your girlfriend’s show. He’s got Mia’s show committed to memory, but not a photo shoot that might propel him to stardom.

 

Now, bailing on her show? That is absolutely a dick head move. No one is disputing that. And I would say his reasons for doing so are definitely up for interpretation.* But to say that he’s “caught up in his own shit” is a mischaracterization and not supported by anything we actually see in the movie.

 

*Personally, I think he’s just being petty. They probably haven’t spoken in the two weeks since their fight (she might not even want him there) and the last thing she did was challenge his commitment to JL’s band. I think he’s thinking, “I’ll show her this means something!” It’s not until the dumb lip bite that he realizes that he’s fucking up.

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