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Cameron H.

HDTGM Classics Twilight Saga - Breaking Dawn Part 2 (4/12 9PM EST)

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Sorry I missed this viewing. I really tried watching the first one, and I just couldn't get through it. I don't remember if their relationship was so lopsided in the finale, but holy cow! I mean, Bella is completely weak and helpless, and Edward is the apotheosis of the abusive controlling boyfriend. He repeatedly says to her that he wants to kill her or hurt her, and she needs to stay away from him, but that she's like a drug to him and he's not sure he can control himself around her. And she's all, "I don't care, I just want to be with you. I love you." WHAT?! Is it that bad in the book?

Also, diamond skin? Are vampires evolved so that their skin just reflects light and that's how they can go out during the day? 

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45 minutes ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

Sorry I missed this viewing. I really tried watching the first one, and I just couldn't get through it. I don't remember if their relationship was so lopsided in the finale, but holy cow! I mean, Bella is completely weak and helpless, and Edward is the apotheosis of the abusive controlling boyfriend. He repeatedly says to her that he wants to kill her or hurt her, and she needs to stay away from him, but that she's like a drug to him and he's not sure he can control himself around her. And she's all, "I don't care, I just want to be with you. I love you." WHAT?! Is it that bad in the book?

Also, diamond skin? Are vampires evolved so that their skin just reflects light and that's how they can go out during the day? 

Yes, it’s like that in the book, but there is real growth in Bella. By the last movie she’s her own person and 100% Edward’s equal. That’s her journey.

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I've been thinking about this movie, and kind of the whole series, since last night. I know Stephanie Meyer wrote a version of Twilight from Edward's perspective but I really want to see a movie from Bella's dad perspective. The last book in particular would be completely insane. His 18 year old daughter gets married, he finds out werewolves exist, 18 year old daughter and son in law adopt a baby who ages 7 years in a three month period. Just imagine what this guy is going through.

Also, I checked a timeline of the whole series. Breaking Dawn takes place over the course of four and a half months. This movie in particular takes place starting September 11 (btw, weird day to make Renesme's birth and Bella become a vampire) to January 1. From Maggie Grace to the battle is December 14 to December 31.

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21 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

Yes, it’s like that in the book, but there is real growth in Bella. By the last movie she’s her own person and 100% Edward’s equal. That’s her journey.

That's good to know. I don't mean to be the Debbie Downer, but I found the first episode legit triggering and problematic. 

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3 hours ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

That's good to know. I don't mean to be the Debbie Downer, but I found the first episode legit triggering and problematic. 

No, I get it. I definitely used to feel the same way. I definitely don’t feel like Bella and Edward are aspirational characters in the first movie. She’s insecure and immature. Edward is caustic and controlling. 

I have a theory that there isn’t one “Edward,” but he represents different relationship types in each of the movies. In the first movie, he’s your first crush. The person you want to be with, but just isn’t right for you - either because you are too different or because the attraction is surface level and the other person is kind of a jerk. It’s the whole bad boy/girl syndrome.

In the second movie, New Moon, the relationship is healthier, but still immature. This would be the person you would probably consider your “first love.” It’s also the type of relationship that ends due to extenuating circumstances rather than any loss of attraction or affection. The kind of messy breakup where feelings are left unresolved. Like if you and your high school boyfriend/girlfriend get accepted to different colleges. Or, perhaps more apt, your SO gets accepted to an out of state college and you have to stay home in your soggy, little town. It’s about trying to move on when you’re not at all ready to do so. 

In Eclipse, it’s about being on the precipice of an adult relationship and coming to terms with a life long commitment (i.e telling everyone you are no longer available, deciding to become immortal). It’s about letting go of the past, and other possible futures, and making a choice - for good or bad.

In Breaking Dawn, it’s about solidifying that decision. It’s about maturity and discovering who you truly are by virtue of all the crap that’s come before. By the last movie, Edward isn’t telling Bella what to do. He’s not trying to protect her. They are fighting side-by-side to protect the future they want to create with each other.

In terms of lopsided relationships, you could argue that by the end the dynamics have completely reversed. With Edward literally telling Bella, “You are better than me.” (A loooooong way from Twilight - lol) However, I feel like that’s just him being sweet. I feel like they end the series as equals - which is how it SHOULD be and something all couples should aspire towards.

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15 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

In Eclipse, it’s about being on the precipice of an adult relationship and coming to terms with a life long commitment (i.e telling everyone you are no longer available, deciding to become immortal). It’s about letting go of the past, and other possible futures, and making a choice - for good or bad.

 

deciding to become immortal...as you do ;) 

This is a good summary. I'm planning on watching the rest of the series since I've seen both parts of the finale. 

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I can’t believe I missed this! So bummed. I saw this movie in theaters and distinctly remember when they zoom out to show the epic battle of Cullens vs Others, that it looked like twelve people in a field. The music was so dramatic and every one had their angriest ‘ready to fight’ faces. I burst out laughing and got shushed by most of the audience. They were unappreciative of the humor. 

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1 hour ago, SaraK said:

I can’t believe I missed this! So bummed. I saw this movie in theaters and distinctly remember when they zoom out to show the epic battle of Cullens vs Others, that it looked like twelve people in a field. The music was so dramatic and every one had their angriest ‘ready to fight’ faces. I burst out laughing and got shushed by most of the audience. They were unappreciative of the humor. 

Exactly our reaction when we were watching it as a group on Friday

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1 hour ago, SaraK said:

I can’t believe I missed this! So bummed. I saw this movie in theaters and distinctly remember when they zoom out to show the epic battle of Cullens vs Others, that it looked like twelve people in a field. The music was so dramatic and every one had their angriest ‘ready to fight’ faces. I burst out laughing and got shushed by most of the audience. They were unappreciative of the humor. 

Next month is Cool as Ice...just saying :P 

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Cameron, you've read more into those books then I did. The whole thing just left me with a bad taste in my mouth and is more heavy handed with the Mormon philosophy (which in a weird way, also crosses over into the evangelical Christianity purity movement in this regard. No sex till marriage, first love, the baby is the most important thing ever, etc) then Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series (which is like Narnia for Mormons).

I'm not saying you are wrong just not how I read it. 

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3 hours ago, EvRobert said:

Cameron, you've read more into those books then I did. The whole thing just left me with a bad taste in my mouth and is more heavy handed with the Mormon philosophy (which in a weird way, also crosses over into the evangelical Christianity purity movement in this regard. No sex till marriage, first love, the baby is the most important thing ever, etc) then Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series (which is like Narnia for Mormons).

I'm not saying you are wrong just not how I read it. 

Yeah, Twilight is super gross. There are things to like about the films here and there - Anna Kendrick, Kristen Stewart - and many things to hate. The only part of the entire series that I actually love is the (invented?) battle scene in the last movie, because you get to see so many sweet, sweet beheadings.

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4 hours ago, EvRobert said:

Cameron, you've read more into those books then I did. The whole thing just left me with a bad taste in my mouth and is more heavy handed with the Mormon philosophy (which in a weird way, also crosses over into the evangelical Christianity purity movement in this regard. No sex till marriage, first love, the baby is the most important thing ever, etc) then Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series (which is like Narnia for Mormons).

I'm not saying you are wrong just not how I read it. 

I've only watched the movies, but that's also how I take it. If the lead characters were better-developed then I might enjoy it more, but I don't think they are. I find Bella such a passive, dull protagonist.

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1 hour ago, theworstbuddhist said:

Yeah, Twilight is super gross. There are things to like about the films here and there - Anna Kendrick, Kristen Stewart - and many things to hate. The only part of the entire series that I actually love is the (invented?) battle scene in the last movie, because you get to see so many sweet, sweet beheadings.

I vaguely remember a fight at the end of the last book, the only reason I read them was I had a friend who was super into the books and told me Icouldn't make fun of them  unless I read them. I tried to get her into the Southern Vampire Mysteries (that TRUE BLOOD was based off of) to no avail. 

I'm not even a fan of Kristen Stewart in these films, I found her dull and boring, it wasn't until Adventureland that I really started to like her as an actress, and then I found one of her early films (the one she did with David Gordon Green and produced by Terrance Malick) that I really liked her. She's still hit and miss for me but at least I know she can act. 

What really surprises me about these films, is the number of QUALITY directors that they got to direct them. 

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The fight is in the last book but it's also a Non-Fight Fight. Meaning Alice sees how it went down and shows Michael Sheen and you think while reading it that it's actually happening but then lmao nah.

I've mentioned before that when these came out I was the EXACT age they were intended for. I was 15 when Twilight was first released so my friends and I ate it The. Fuck. Up. But it wasn't until Breaking Dawn came out when we were all 18 that we finally realized there was something wrong with the series. Looking back on it now, especially now that the movies are out, it's incredibly toxic, and I would say that I disagree with Cameron that New Moon improves on the toxicity, because the amount of times she puts herself near death for a man really is a terrifying message for 16 year old girls to be reading/seeing. But honestly I tried to re-read the books to see if I was still right that they were a good read, and no... they weren't. I couldn't make it through the first chapter again after having the veil pulled from my head lol. This is a terrible story LOL.

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24 minutes ago, EvRobert said:

I'm not even a fan of Kristen Stewart in these films, I found her dull and boring, it wasn't until Adventureland that I really started to like her as an actress, and then I found one of her early films (the one she did with David Gordon Green and produced by Terrance Malick) that I really liked her. She's still hit and miss for me but at least I know she can act.

She did a made-for-Showtime movie pre-Twilight based off a book I LOVEEE called "Speak" that she's genuinely amazing in with Steve Zahn. You wouldn't think reading those two names together would prove for quality but it's this gorgeous little indie movie about a teenage girl dealing with the aftermath of being raped and it's beautifully told. Zahn plays her art teacher that helps her find her outlet to express all of her feelings.

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@taylorannephoto you said that you were at the right age for the Twilight books when the first one came out, but I've always wondered why people like my friend, who was a mom in her mid 30s or so, why those books connected with so many women their age.

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5 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

She did a made-for-Showtime movie pre-Twilight based off a book I LOVEEE called "Speak" that she's genuinely amazing in with Steve Zahn. You wouldn't think reading those two names together would prove for quality but it's this gorgeous little indie movie about a teenage girl dealing with the aftermath of being raped and it's beautifully told. Zahn plays her art teacher that helps her find her outlet to express all of her feelings.

I genuinely like Steve Zahn as a comedic actor, so this sounds really good. I'll have to see if I can find it. 

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17 minutes ago, EvRobert said:

@taylorannephoto you said that you were at the right age for the Twilight books when the first one came out, but I've always wondered why people like my friend, who was a mom in her mid 30s or so, why those books connected with so many women their age.

It's a really good question. Like at least with Magic Mike or 50 Shades of Grey there's this like almost housewife-esque aspect that it is catering to more so than the obvious teenage demo that things like Twilight are trying to get to.

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It really is a curious thing to me, I suppose to a degree it could e like when I saw the first (THE FIRST) GI Joe movie. I came out and was like "it reminded me of when I was a kid smashing my GI Joes together!". Maybe there is just something  in types of media that reverts us back to a particular moment in our childhood and a longing for such?

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In defense of these movies/books, I will say they really work better as a complete series. To @taylorannephoto‘s point about them sending a “terrifying message” to teenage girls, that’s only true if you think Meyer’s point was to say, “Girls, this is what you should be aspiring toward” which I would argue she’s definitely not. She calls Bella out constantly on her bullshit. Bella is the protagonist, but she’s not meant to be a hero to be emulated. She fucks up. She does dumb things. She’s stubborn and petulant. All things teenagers - and adults - can relate to. It’s not about saying, “Here’s a person you should be,” it’s about, “Here’s a person just like you, who feels insecure and helpless and ugly and dumb.”

Nor do I feel like it’s saying, “If a person breaks up with you, be reckless,” it’s saying, “I understand what it’s like to hurt. You may want to do something stupid. I get that. I won’t judge you.” Hell, that resonates with me - an adult man. When my first “love” and I broke up, I was a mess for months and months and certainly in no position to be anyone’s role model. That’s what the books provide. That’s where the connection is. 

As far as her criticisms of her personality, I mean, that’s her journey! The movies aren’t about beheadings and hardcore battles. If that’s what you’re looking for or want to see, then you and the movie are speaking two totally different languages. There is a journey. But it’s an internal journey into maturity. She starts off as an insecure person and becomes a self-confident badass. It’s just crazy to me to expect a person on page one of a four book series to be the same person they are on the last page of the last book. People give her so much shit for who her character is in the beginning, but never stop to reevaluate her as the movies progress. It would be like hating Han Solo in The Force Awakens because he was a cocky, mercenary piece of shit in A New Hope. Sometimes, it seems like Bella is the only literary character that’s expected to be an absolutely flawless character from the word go - and that’s bullshit. 

Ultimately, Bella is not meant to be a role model. And I don’t think it’s Stephanie Meyers intention or her responsibility to make her one. She’s just Bella. She’s offering the point of view of a normal, sullen, emotional teenager. It’s no wonder that adults struggle to connect with that, but I don’t think it’s right to be outright dismissive of that point of view either. Just because it doesn’t speak to you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t speak to someone.

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19 minutes ago, EvRobert said:

It really is a curious thing to me, I suppose to a degree it could e like when I saw the first (THE FIRST) GI Joe movie. I came out and was like "it reminded me of when I was a kid smashing my GI Joes together!". Maybe there is just something  in types of media that reverts us back to a particular moment in our childhood and a longing for such?

I do also think it has something to do with this desire for someone to come and save us from our boring lives. Everyone wants to be the kid under the stairs that suddenly finds out he's a wizard, or wants to be the One girl this vampire falls in love with, cause then it means there's more to life then whatever boring shit you have to deal with day to day lol.

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5 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

In defense of these movies/books, I will say they really work better as a complete series. To @taylorannephoto‘s point about them sending a “terrifying message” to teenage girls, that’s only true if you think Meyer’s point was to say, “Girls, this is what you should be aspiring toward” which I would argue she’s definitely not. She calls Bella out constantly on her bullshit. Bella is the protagonist, but she’s not meant to be a hero to be emulated. She fucks up. She does dumb things. She’s stubborn and petulant. All things teenagers - and adults - can relate to. It’s not about saying, “Here’s a person you should be,” it’s about, “Here’s a person just like you, who feels insecure and helpless and ugly and dumb.” 

Nor is it  saying, “If a person breaks up with you, be reckless,” it’s saying, “I understand what it’s like to hurt. You may want to do something stupid. I get that. I won’t judge you.” Hell, that resonates with me - an adult man. When my first “love” and I broke up, I was a mess for months and months and certainly in no position to be anyone’s role model. That’s what the books provide. That’s where the connection is. 

As far as her criticisms of her personality, I mean, that’s her journey! The movies aren’t about beheadings and hardcore battles. If that’s what you’re looking for or want to see, then you and the movie are speaking two totally different languages. There is a journey. But it’s an internal journey into maturity. She starts off as an insecure person and becomes a self-confident badass. It’s just crazy to me to expect a person on page one of a four book series to be the same person they are on the last page of the last book. People give her so much shit for who her character is in the beginning, but never stop to reevaluate her as the movies progress. It would be like hating Han Solo in The Force Awakens because he was a cocky, mercenary piece of shit in A New Hope. Sometimes, it seems like Bella is the only literary character that’s expected to be an absolutely flawless character from the word go - and that’s bullshit. 

Ultimately, Bella is not meant to be a role model. And I don’t think it’s Stephanie Meyers intention or her responsibility to make her one. She’s just Bella. She’s offering the point of view of a normal, sullen, emotional teenager. It’s no wonder that adults struggle to connect with that, but I don’t think it’s right to be outright dismissive of that point of view either. Just because it doesn’t speak to you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t speak to someone.

I don't think she's saying that Bella is to be emulated, no, but she is painting this romance as True Love, and everything that Bella does in response to this True Love or how Edward treats her in the beginning under the guise of True Love, is terrifying and problematic af.

She may call it out to some degree, but she never stands with that calling out in my opinion. Edward full on stalks her, breaks into her home, and watches her while she sleeps and even when Bella first begins to think there's something wrong with that idea it's not because it's creepy and a giant RED FUCKING FLAG it's because she is starting to catch on that he is a vampire, and after that it's pushed aside as anything other than his loving and protecting nature.

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First, I never wanted to be the kid under the stairs, I wanted to be Shipwreck from GI Joe :D or Han Solo or The Tick (I was a weird kid/teenager, I know). 

And Cameron, I don't think Stephanie Meyer intended to showcase a toxic relationship nor do I think she intedned Bella to be someone that was emulated, but she did. She wrote what she knew, which was based on a lot of LDS courting and marriage stuff (even more influenced I think once OSC kind of took her under his wing and mentored her and whatnot). For Bella there was only ever Edward and nothing else would do, She does dangerous things throughout the books to try and get his attention and/or prove herself or whatever to get herself turned, including having that damn creepy baby.  There is a worldview and a POV throughout the books and movies that I think says that there is only ever one person for someone (IIRC, Bella's father and mother never find a meaningful relationship after their divorce) and you won't ever be happy without that person. There's also a lot of weird purity movement stuff in there about sex and how chaste Edward is even when Bella is throwing herself at him and whatnot. I mean this is just my reading.

I also had a whole bit about how, if one was inclined, they could read an incel POV into Jacob, but I was just kind of pulling that out of my ass.

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2 minutes ago, EvRobert said:


I also had a whole bit about how, if one was inclined, they could read an incel POV into Jacob, but I was just kind of pulling that out of my ass.

Oh, I see this 100%

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2 minutes ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

Oh, I see this 100%

Same 100%

He's on the same train as a lot of fictional men with the whole "SHE FRIENDZONED ME AND I WILL NOT RESPECT HER CHOICE RAAAAAH!"

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