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Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs

Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs  

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  1. 1. Does Snow White belong on the AFI list?

    • Heigh-Ho! 💎
      10
    • Heigh-NO! 🍎
      5

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  • Poll closed on 04/12/19 at 07:00 AM

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8 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

I don't remember how Wall-E changed the Oscars at all so you'll have to refresh my memory. I know that Beauty and the Beast was the first animated movie to ever be nominated for Best Picture, and then Up was nominated in 2010 and it was the first year it went from 5 back to 10 slots in the BP category.

I think there was much ado about Wall-E and Dark Knight not getting nominated when such popular classics as the Reader and Curious Case of Benji Button were. My understanding is that’s what led to the Best Picture field getting expanded to 10 slots.

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17 minutes ago, mdoyl44 said:

I think there was much ado about Wall-E and Dark Knight not getting nominated when such popular classics as the Reader and Curious Case of Benji Button were. My understanding is that’s what led to the Best Picture field getting expanded to 10 slots.

I do put this down to The Dark Knight more than WALL-E, but it's true that both were in the conversation.

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One more possibility would be The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's not one of my personal favorites, but boy do I know a lot of people who love it.

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1 minute ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

One more possibility would be The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's not one of my personal favorites, but boy do I know a lot of people who love it.

You guys. Literally grabbing a beer 30 seconds ago thinking to myself “I didn’t love it, but wasn’t Nightmare Before Christmas influential?”

Second time this thread I’m minutes behind. I’m choosing to be heartened by that. Sign of a good board.

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2 hours ago, mdoyl44 said:

You guys. Literally grabbing a beer 30 seconds ago thinking to myself “I didn’t love it, but wasn’t Nightmare Before Christmas influential?”

Second time this thread I’m minutes behind. I’m choosing to be heartened by that. Sign of a good board.

Soon we will be one shared collective mind. Resistance is futile.

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23 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Soon we will be one shared collective mind. Resistance is futile.

giphy.gif

I said “BOARD” not Borg.

But I love it.

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I think it took me longer to read this thread than it did to listen to the podcast.  I hope we can get this level of conversation next week about All The President's Men, too! 

This is a film that's really making me question how I'm voting, because I've been able to just vote for "best" and not "most influential" and still feel pretty good about that.  This film falls short of my "best" border, but I couldn't bring myself to vote no without reading what everyone had to say here.  After reading the thread and checking the poll, maybe I'm not alone, since only 8 people have voted?  So indulge me in the following breakdown:

Q: Does the list need to have a Disney animated film? 
A: Disney animated films are among the few pieces of cinema that one can say legitimately changed the world.  Amy talked last week about the global knowledge and enthusiasm for Chaplin.  Double or triple that for Disney.  So let's say yes.

Q: If yes, then what is the best Disney animated film?
A: This is the sticking point.  Is it the one that tells the best story?  The one with the best songs?  The one with the most groundbreaking animation?  Should we give up on picking the best one and instead just pick the "Disneyest" Disney movie, which would be a slightly problematic princess movie (that's kind of their brand, it's in their logo after all), like Snow WhiteCinderella, or Sleeping Beauty?  For the early films (first decade), my favorite is Bambi, though I could understand having concerns because it doesn't have the best songs (although "Drip Drip Drop Little April Showers" is my fucking jam).  My pick for the most complete film made during Walt's lifetime is The Jungle Book, which is notable as the last film Walt worked on, has a well-told story with memorable characters, has a couple bangers on the soundtrack, and inspired millions of children to read Rudyard Kipling only to be disappointed to discover that King Louie isn't a character in the Kipling version.  My personal childhood favorite Disney film was Robin Hood, which, as Amy and Paul pointed out, made generations of children have strange sexual feelings for foxes, and today is the go-to reference for all my socialist and communist meme-master friends.  But besides the "Oo-De-Lally" theme song, none of the musical numbers are particularly memorable.  My childhood wheelhouse was the stretch with Little MermaidBeauty and the BeastAladdin, and The Lion King.  I'd buy arguments for inclusion for any of those four, but they come so late that I don't know if they can be included in the world-changing-ness of Disney, since they already had a theme park in Tokyo before any of these films came out.  So inclusion of these four would be on merit alone, and if we're going to just consider the films on merit rather than influence, it's worth returning to...

Q: Does the list really need to have a Disney animated film?
A: If none of the films are actually among the top 100 films ever made, then I guess I'm inclined to say no.

Thus, I've convinced myself to vote no on Snow White.  Wonderful animation (except for the pretty faces), but too much hand-washing and moralizing for me to find it enjoyable.

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I’m not necessarily saying the movies/filmmakers I’m about to mention belong on the list, but I do feel like animation is getting the short end of the stick as far as how they’re judged. Looking through the 400 nominated films, only 9 are animated - 7 of those are Disney. This feels unnecessarily limited and I keep thinking of overlooked examples.

I know Nightmare Before Christmas and Don Bluth were mentioned already, but what about Charlie Brown, Fritz the Cat, or Rankin & Bass? These aren’t award-winning juggernauts, but they have definitely stood the test of time as being part of shared American culture. Austin Powers and There’s Something About Mary made the cut, so it’s not like we’re required to stay classy.

In going through the list, I was also surprised to see Waking Life and Scanner Darkly were not included - I’ve only seen the latter, but I feel like that was impressive enough technically to warrant a seat at the table.

Finally, what I think is making me feel so unsatisfied with the lack of animation on this list is that one criteria that can feel so limiting, which is they have to be American films. That’s a whole other discussion, but just to play devil’s advocate, what would this list look like if Wallace & Gromit or Miyazaki were  part of the conversation? I’m sure there are dozens of other examples I’m unfamiliar with, but those loom so large in my mind.

Is it just me, or so animated films have to do it backwards and in high heels?

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2 hours ago, mdoyl44 said:

In going through the list, I was also surprised to see Waking Life and Scanner Darkly were not included - I’ve only seen the latter, but I feel like that was impressive enough technically to warrant a seat at the table.

Waking Life is on of my faves, but it's way too much of an esoteric cult item to make the AFI list.

2 hours ago, mdoyl44 said:

Is it just me, or so animated films have to do it backwards and in high heels?

I think it's as I mentioned above: most animation is expensive and requires a very large crew. There's a high barrier to entry, more than for live action. That's why you see so much of the interesting experimental work happening in short films (which are also very unlikely to make the AFI list).

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13 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

I think it's as I mentioned above: most animation is expensive and requires a very large crew. There's a high barrier to entry, more than for live action. That's why you see so much of the interesting experimental work happening in short films (which are also very unlikely to make the AFI list).

Definitely true, although I was thinking more in terms of reaction and assessment rather than production. An animated film can have a remarkable script, performances, technical achievement, and stunning visuals, but it struggles to find a seat at the table in these conversations. It always seems to be couched with that qualifier “for an animated film.”

I think it’s great that we’ve seen more animated films get nominated for Best Picture in the past 10 years, but I still don’t think we’ll ever see one win Best Picture. In that same time frame, we saw a black-and-white, 99% silent film win.

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I think this came up the last time we discussed animated films on the list, but I'm not really a Disney person.  Though, the one early-ish Disney film (I'd be down for watching The Black Cauldron again, though, it doesn't come to mind as a top 100 film) is Alice in Wonderland.

Fwiw, or context or perspective, I prefer Totoro to Spirited Away.  The latter had higher production values, and that first night as dusk sets is truly amazing, but the actual character progression of the child protagonist in Totoro is more complicated and seems more interesting to me than character development through questing - which I guess contradicts picking Alice in Wonderland above, but honestly, I have a hard time thinking of major American animated films that go that route.  AiW just has a kooky, fantastical world that I just enjoy.

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On 4/6/2019 at 12:51 PM, bleary said:

This is a film that's really making me question how I'm voting, because I've been able to just vote for "best" and not "most influential" and still feel pretty good about that.  This film falls short of my "best" border, but I couldn't bring myself to vote no without reading what everyone had to say here.  After reading the thread and checking the poll, maybe I'm not alone, since only 8 people have voted?  So indulge me in the following breakdown:

I feel like one could also breakdown what they mean by most influential.  I feel like there's a lot of, "most well known," or "referenced (in the Simpsons)" or is meme-able statements when that's being said.  And people are free to care about what type of influence they care about, but I find for answering, "is this a good/great movie," I don't know how much currency that type of influence has with me.  I don't want to say it has none, but I don't find myself consciously wanting to use it as an argument.

Then there's actually altering how film goes about conveying its narrative or story.  This can be such things as editing techniques that convey a certain mood (which I could say is subtle, but Breathless was not subtle in its editing - and also had a lot of shallow mimicry in its time).  There's also a question of how incremental it was, was it going to happen with or without the film.  I mean, I ultimately decided to vote "no" now as well, but even the latter version of "most influential," Snow White does pretty well.

 

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I know this won't change any minds, but it's pronounced, bio-pic.  It's a misle word.  It's one I used to mispronounce.  I kind of like the sound of the mispronunciation more, but it is a mispronunciation.

I also used to use "nonplussed" incorrectly for years.  Just mentioning that, because they use it incorrectly a lot on HDTGM.

 

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1 hour ago, ol' eddy wrecks said:

I feel like one could also breakdown what they mean by most influential.  I feel like there's a lot of, "most well known," or "referenced (in the Simpsons)" or is meme-able statements when that's being said.  And people are free to care about what type of influence they care about, but I find for answering, "is this a good/great movie," I don't know how much currency that type of influence has with me.  I don't want to say it has none, but I don't find myself consciously wanting to use it as an argument.

To me it's about trying to look outside myself. Does this movie carry currency outside of my personal tastes and aesthetic preferences? If I can identify a lot of influence on other artists, then clearly it does. To me this kind of thing is important when judging an "All Time" list.

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On 4/4/2019 at 7:20 PM, Cameron H. said:

Lol - I mean, you’re not wrong. I just think things like that, and some of the things Taylor brought up, really are a casualty of this being the first of its kind. There’s a sense of showing off, but also of holding back. People really didn’t think it was going to work - period. So you get a sense of, “I wish we could do a scene of SW and PC talking and getting to know one another, but...that might hurt the flow. It’s also going to cost X amount more dollars that we really don’t have. Okay, well the curse can only be broken by true love’s kiss, right? Well, then we don’t need much of a courtship. It’s love at first sight, and when she wakes at the end, everyone will know that they’re perfect for each other - otherwise his kiss wouldn’t work.”

So, yeah, of course it could be better, but I think, due to their circumstances, they allowed the audience to make some of these intuitive leaps.

Before I finish catching up on this thread, I want to add that, as a little girl, I had no need to see a courtship between Snow White and Prince Charming. They were made for each other, and destined for each other, and would know it as soon as they saw each other. At least, that's how I basically analyzed all Disney Princess/Prince romances. There was no need for matching personalities. It was magic! It was true love! It was happily ever after! 

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