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Tootsie  

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  1. 1. Should Tootsie be on the list?

    • Yes, but her name is ‘D-O-R-T-H-Y!’
      3
    • No, zap it in the ‘badubies.’
      15

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  • Poll closed on 05/10/19 at 07:00 AM

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17 minutes ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

I'm definitely for kicking this one off the list. Oddly, I'd support The Sixth Sense being on the list over this one, only because it actually did something for the genre. Here, I think it's fine. But for a movie about empathizing with women, there are so. many. dudes. All the main characters in the film are men; jessica Lange and Teri Garr are both just there for Hoffman to have his big "ah hah" moment. The female executive who hires Dorothy is definitely a character I'd like to have seen more of. It's not really about women at all, and I definitely don't see it as a "Feminist" movie. No, Hoffman in a dress isn't the joke itself, but the fact the homophobia from Julie's dad when Hoffman gives the ring back really bothered me. As far as dudes in drag for work, I'd much prefer Some Like it Hot. That did it so much better, and was so much funnier and warmer. 

None of this is to take away any inspiration this movie may have played in people's lives in opening up their minds to non-traditional gender expressions. I just don't find this movie holds up so well, and I don't understand at all why it's considered one of the top 100.

I had a hard time with even the concept of why Hoffman wanted to dress up as a woman to begin with, ya know? At least in Some Like It Hot and in Mrs. Doutbfire you completely understand more so why they are doing the cross-dressing, but I feel like this character in Tootsie has a really thinly veiled reason and even though that's like the main reason for why he figures out he is wrong it was really hard for me to get past that and watch as this shitty dude realizes how rough women actually have it. And I believe it was Cameron who said (please correct me if I'm wrong) that this is SUCH a man savior movie and I could not agree more.

I decided not to rewatch it but I'm wondering if I should to see if this even passes the Bechdel Test (Dorothy doesn't count since the person in the dress does not actually identify as a woman).

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7 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

And I believe it was Cameron who said (please correct me if I'm wrong) that this is SUCH a man savior movie and I could not agree more.

Yeah, that was my Letterboxd review :) 

“Tootsie is a great movie even though at times it feels like the chauvinistic equivalent of the “white-savior” trope (penis-savior?) That being said, it never feels like it’s being purposefully condescending or malicious. It’s trying to do something good, but I’d argue that maybe 9 to 5 does it better?”

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27 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I decided not to rewatch it but I'm wondering if I should to see if this even passes the Bechdel Test (Dorothy doesn't count since the person in the dress does not actually identify as a woman).

I don't think it does pass, come to think of it. No two (real) women talk to each other that I can recall.

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18 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

I don't think it does pass, come to think of it. No two (real) women talk to each other that I can recall.

Booooooo!

I just check to see if The Bechdel Cast has covered it but alas they have not. I think it would be very fascinating to hear a specific take on this movie. (That podcast has covered Mrs. Doubtfire and She's The Man in terms of other cross-dressing movies.)

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1 minute ago, taylorannephoto said:

Booooooo!

I just check to see if The Bechdel Cast has covered it but alas they have not. I think it would be very fascinating to here a specific take on this movie. (That podcast has covered Mrs. Doubtfire and She's The Man in terms of other cross-dressing movies.)

Yea definitely. It's not like there isn't some feminist messages in there, but as I said in my Letterboxd, it's basic. Almost too basic, if you ask me. So basic that it might even hamper the film's points entirely.

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8 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

Yea definitely. It's not like there isn't some feminist messages in there, but as I said in my Letterboxd, it's basic. Almost too basic, if you ask me. So basic that it might even hamper the film's points entirely.

(Ah sorry for my typo... I have not had any caffeine yet...)

I think this is feminist to a point for sure. In 1982 I'm sure some men saw this for Hoffman and it probably blew their minds but I completely agree that it's very basic, and it's a very surface level take on feminism for sure. I totally forgot for a second that 9 to 5 was made a full two years prior so it's even worse now in my opinion lol. For some reason I was just convinced this came first and then 9 to 5 just improved on the women in the workplace conversation.... yet.... nah they did it first and fucking fantastically.

Why isn't 9 to 5 on this list!?

(Quick sidebar but Dolly Parton did NOT win the Oscar for the song 9 to 5 and I'm pissed cause "Fame" won and literally it beat both Dolly and Willie Nelson's On the Road Again.... what the fuck Academy???)

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1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

I totally forgot for a second that 9 to 5 was made a full two years prior so it's even worse now in my opinion lol. For some reason I was just convinced this came first and then 9 to 5 just improved on the women in the workplace conversation.... yet.... nah they did it first and fucking fantastically.

Why isn't 9 to 5 on this list!?

I totally agree about 9 to 5. I watched it for the first time in the last year and I was stunned by how well it held up (and saddened by how little things had changed.) The movie even ends with a joke about how even though most of their demands will be met, they still aren’t going to give them equal pay. I don't necessarily know if I would go so far as to put it on the list, but I would certainly place it ahead of Tootsie. :) 

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3 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I don't necessarily know if I would go so far as to put it on the list, but I would certainly place it ahead of Tootsie.

9 to 5 is a perfect movie and should be recognized as such 😂

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3 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

Booooooo!

I just check to see if The Bechdel Cast has covered it but alas they have not. I think it would be very fascinating to hear a specific take on this movie. (That podcast has covered Mrs. Doubtfire and She's The Man in terms of other cross-dressing movies.)

I love that podcast too, and would love to hear their take on Tootsie. It most definitely fails the Bechdel test. I'm not even sure two women talk to each other, let alone about something other than men. This is so blatantly a movie by bros trying (at least seemingly genuinely) to be woke, and failing. I mean, Geena Davis is literally only there to provide exposition while in her underwear. I suppose, like pin ups in men's lifestyle magazines, straight men can watch this and still be confident in their straightness; look! naked ladies! 

That reminds me, I did like how Dustin Hoffman reacted to people questioning whether he was gay. I think that was pretty good. The rest of the movie, meh. 

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7 minutes ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

I love that podcast too

It's become a dream of mine to get famous enough that Jamie and Caitlin invite me on and they can tear my favorite movie apart lol.

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Looking at what was kicked off the AFI list in comparison to Tootsie I am at a loss. It is a serviceable comedy with some pretty archaic views about both women, drag, and is more homophobic than a movie 23 years its senior. There is nothing especially memorable about its direction, or cinematography, and in some cases such as the score, and editing its outright bad.  

Does it stand the test of time. Decidedly not. It has a completely chauvinistic view of women and thinks its making a forward thinking statement about gender politics. Working Girl is far superior if we are talking gender politics in the 80s, and Some Like it Hot, Too Wong Foo are infinitely superior if we are talking drag or cross-dressing movies. 

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On 5/6/2019 at 7:59 AM, taylorannephoto said:

"I had a hard time with even the concept of why Hoffman wanted to dress up as a woman to begin with, ya know? At least in Some Like It Hot and in Mrs. Doutbfire you completely understand more so why they are doing the cross-dressing, but I feel like this character in Tootsie has a really thinly veiled reason and even though that's like the main reason for why he figures out he is wrong it was really hard for me to get past that and watch as this shitty dude realizes how rough women actually have it."

I think it's Michael Dorsey's overestimation of his own acting talent that makes him do it - he thinks he's so good that he can even dress as a woman, audition, and land the part easily - which he does! I think it's hubris that makes him dress as a woman and the lure of easy and consistent soap opera money that makes him choose that part.

I heard Hoffman on Fresh Air a couple of years ago and he said that he was really upset when they were making him up as a woman for this movie because he realized that he looked like a woman he wouldn't look twice at. He said not looking pretty made him realize what women who aren't beautiful go through. This was before stories about how obnoxious he was on various sets were mainstream so I had mostly positive feelings about him going into the interview but I thought, dude - you have no idea what it is like to be a woman because you dressed up like one for a movie one time. You know how to feel sorry for yourself and can start to understand how judgmental you are towards women but you don't really understand what it's like to put up with guys like you all the time. Really turned me off him.

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12 minutes ago, sugarpussOShea said:

I think it's Michael Dorsey's overestimation of his own acting talent that makes him do it - he thinks he's so good that he can even dress as a woman, audition, and land the part easily - which he does! I think it's hubris that makes him dress as a woman and the lure of easy and consistent soap opera money that makes him choose that part.

I guess I worded my statement wrong because I don't have a misunderstanding of why he does it, that's pretty clear to me. I have a misunderstanding of why I'm supposed to be okay with the concept and his thought process because it's a very thinly veiled reason and any woman watching this movie would immediately be like uhm what?

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13 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I guess I worded my statement wrong because I don't have a misunderstanding of why he does it, that's pretty clear to me. I have a misunderstanding of why I'm supposed to be okay with the concept and his thought process because it's a very thinly veiled reason and any woman watching this movie would immediately be like uhm what?

Ohh - gotcha. Yeah - his "last resort" move makes more sense if he's in some small city with limited acting roles but he's in NYC for crying out loud! If you can't land any roles on tv, in commercials, or in a play, maybe you're not talented! It also feels like yet another F YOU to Terri Garr's character to go for the part they rejected her for before she really got a shot at it. (She's really treated so badly by him and it's played for laughs but I really feel for her. She needs new friends.)

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Ooooh I just finally listened to the episode and Paul you made a ginormous error! Roz was NOT on RuPaul's Drag Race! She's definitely quality enough to be on the show but she's never been a contestant!

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9 hours ago, sugarpussOShea said:

Ohh - gotcha. Yeah - his "last resort" move makes more sense if he's in some small city with limited acting roles but he's in NYC for crying out loud! If you can't land any roles on tv, in commercials, or in a play, maybe you're not talented!

In fairness, being in a place with a lot of acting work like NYC also means there's a lot of competition.

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11 hours ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

In fairness, being in a place with a lot of acting work like NYC also means there's a lot of competition.

Not enough to dress like a woman and expect there to be more work *because* you are a woman.

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3 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

Not enough to dress like a woman and expect there to be more work *because* you are a woman.

Well, within the context of the movie they say he's not untalented, he's just too difficult to work with. So he starts getting work because he's in disguise, not specifically because he's a woman.

Anyway, I'm not commenting on the later plot developments once he's disguised as a woman, more the setup that he has trouble getting work and yet is supposed to be a talented actor. I think that is actually decently explained in the movie.

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3 hours ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Well, within the context of the movie they say he's not untalented, he's just too difficult to work with. So he starts getting work because he's in disguise, not specifically because he's a woman.

Anyway, I'm not commenting on the later plot developments once he's disguised as a woman, more the setup that he has trouble getting work and yet is supposed to be a talented actor. I think that is actually decently explained in the movie.

*He* makes it about gender though.

And anyway, you commented on a comment that was a reply to my comment that has to do with the gender politics of the concept so 🤷‍♀️

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2 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

*He* makes it about gender though.

And anyway, you commented on a comment that was a reply to my comment that has to do with the gender politics of the concept so 🤷‍♀️

He definitely does. I'm not disagreeing with your point here, just also expanding upon my own.

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