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FisterRoboto

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Posts posted by FisterRoboto

  1. Posted

    I keep saying "The movie doesn't show him being supportive of her" and you keep saying "Show me when he's not supportive." It's literally impossible to give you a quote from the movie or cite a scene that doesn't exist. The proof, in this case, is the LACK of evidence to the contrary. But you keep setting up a criteria to change your mind that doesn't exist and pretending like I'm just pulling it out of my ass while condescendingly telling me to cite the part of the movie where the thing doesn't happen.

     

    As to her support, I could point to her supporting his idea for the jazz club, drawing the logo for that club, being at every show we see, dancing along with music she has said she doesn't really like, or even encouraging him to open the club instead of playing in a band he hates. And that's just off the top of my head. Most of the first two acts of this movie are her encouraging and supporting him.

  2. Posted

    I asked you to cite examples of him not being there and you said, "You can't because the scenes aren't there." Exactly! You're just saying that "he's not supportive" without evidence. I am pointing to specific examples of hen he is there for her and you can't give me a single example of him not being there except for the big one. So how can you say that he's not? The evidence suggests otherwise. I want facts, not feelings.

    Yes, and I don't agree with most of those examples showing him being all that supportive (as evidenced by the fact that I said as much to each of them). My point is that we SEE Mia be there for him repeatedly. But we don't SEE him there for her in the same way. That's the whole point. There are no examples to give because he's just.....not there.

     

    As far as calling him "selfish" in that scene, you're right. You called him a "charming, charming selfless man." I have no idea where I got "selfish" from.

    Which was in response to you using the scene to show that it was a selfless task he was doing.

  3. Posted

    With all this action, I started to think that at 12 pages this was some big, impressive thread that was starting to take on historic standards. Then I went and looked up our High School Musical thread.

     

    32 pages!

     

    http://forum.earwolf...__fromsearch__1

     

    Good lord, we're monsters.

    It's only Wednesday, man. We've got some time :)

     

    Now, where do we get two more LLLs to keep this going?

     

    (PS - I <3 that thread)

    • Like 3

  4. Posted

    I think you're giving her too much of the benefit of the doubt. We just saw her sad and lonely and wanting to be with him. She then finds out that this is what it's going to be and she's like, "OMG is this my life forever?" She is being passive-aggressive. She's pretending like it's out of a concern for him when it's really she wants him to be there with her. This is all in the movie. The scene right before it and in the conversation itself.

    I don't see her as passive aggressive at all. I see her as saying, "You've been complaining the WHOLE TIME I've known you about doing this. Are you sure this is what you want to do forever?"

     

    Yes! He's saying something shitty because he knows she's right! He doesn't want to be doing this, but he's doing it (at least in his mind) for her. If you have a job you don't want to be doing and putting off your dream, the last thing you need to hear is someone telling you how you're wasting your life.

    Maybe it's just "tough love" :rolleyes:

     

    Also, while what he says is shitty, he's not exactly lying either.

    How so?

     

    I would need specific scenes. Aside from that one scene, when has he let her down or not been there for her?

    I said she's not a priority. This could be because most of the time, we're seeing his rise (Mia's career really takes the back seat until the third act). But, yes, he's supporting her financially...because she's doing the thing he told her to do! And I also think you are totally underplaying how big of a deal him missing her show was. It's literally THE THING she's been working towards for the bulk of the movie. He's too caught up in his own shit to even make it.

     

    We don't SEE him be there for her the way that she is for him every single step of the way in his career. It's not that he misses a bunch of performances or something; it's that we literally don't see him being the kind of support that she is.

     

    It's tough love! She has given up! Sometimes you need some to tell you "Stop being an asshole and get your shit together." How is he being "selfish" here? What is he getting out of this? Please feel free to quote the movie.

    I guess you and I see that scene very differently. I don't really think berating people has anything to do with "love."

     

    And I also didn't claim this scene was him being selfish. But it is definitely him being an asshole.

     

    I already outlined in my previous post how he has been there for him throughout the movie. So, again, please tell me specific examples of when he is not there for her throughout the movie.

     

    Bottome line: they are both self-absorbed, Mia is just more likable.

    I don't think anyone has said she's not self-absorbed, but you seem to take exception to us pointing out all the shitty things Seb does in the movie, which is (again) by and large a byproduct of him being the focal point of most of the film.

     

    And I don't know what you're looking for when you tell me to give you "specific scenes/examples" when my whole point is that those scenes don't exist.

     

    I'm fine accepting that Mia is selfish, but painting Seb as some kind of hero that's up on a cross for Mia's success is a really wild read on that character.

    • Like 1

  5. Posted

    Yep, mostly from me, because I was starting to get irked about the Seb-bashing when Mia's no prize, either. I am mostly just trying to unpack a lot of these moments from multiple angles, before this turned into the crucifixion of Sebastian thread. I like both of these characters plenty, but he's been taking a pounding, so I thought I would look at her with a little more scrutiny. In their end, they're both horrible garbage people. ;)

    To be fair, that's largely because (as Taylor has pointed out a bunch), Seb is the one with a more fully fleshed-out character. Most of the movie is from his perspective and about him. So, like, I get it that Mia might not be the best, but a lot of that is us having to fill in the blanks about her because we're given almost nothing.

    • Like 2

  6. Posted

    We see that she’s lonely and she misses him. She has just gotten off the phone saying as much. The problem isn’t rehearsing for her show. The problem is she just learned that the rest of their potential future together was going to be spent with him not being around. She’s disappointed and she’s being petty in retaliation. (“You don’t want to be in that band anyway...”)

     

    I don't see her response as petty at all. She asks him when he's going to be home, and he says that they tour to afford another album and then record another album so they can tour. And that's when she says, "So you're in it for the long haul?" She's asking if this is something he's willing to commit to because for the whole rest of the movie, he's been complaining about how he doesn't want to do it.

     

    The only person I see being petty in this convo is Seb when he tells her she only liked him when he was failing because it made her feel better about herself. Which is just a shitty thing to say solely to hurt another person.

     

    The whole point of that scene is they’re not communicating effectively.

     

    I guess I feel like Seb is getting a raw deal here. He can be a jerk, but he’s in no way a bad guy. I feel like the idea that he’s not supportive is absurd. He sees her potential and encourages it. He workshops her play with her. And as CakeBug brought up, she quits her job to work on her play and is staying (presumably) rent free in his apartment.

     

    The only time he isn’t there for her is at her show. Which, admittedly, is a big deal, but...he *was* going to go - even after she stormed out of the apartment. Hell, they probably hadn’t even spoken since that night and he was *still* going to go. I mean, had they not had that fight and had her show been successful, I doubt she would have been that mad. Disappointed? Sure. But if he told her what happened, she’d probably would have understood.

    He constantly condescends and infantilizes her. It's not just that he missed her show; it's that she's clearly not the priority to her because he's too busy being a sad sack about having to play poppy jazz to be there for her. But we see her there for him every single step of the way.

     

    Then, after she breaks up with him, he drives to another state and tracks her down just from the stories she’s told him about her life. He could have just hung up on that casting agent and been like, “Fuck her.” A lot of people would. The fact of the matter is, she wouldn’t be a famous star if he didn’t get over the petty bullshit. She eaarned it through her talent, yes, but her talent doesn’t mean shit if she doesn’t know about the offer.

     

    Sure, he shows up....so that he can berate her and call her a baby. What a charming, charming selfless man.

     

    And then, after ALL THAT, when she asks him where they are (obviously willing to get back together), even though he wants to be with her, he tells her “no” because she needs to pursue her dream with her whole heart and he knows he’d just be in the way.

     

    But, please, tell me more about how selfish he is...

    Like, I get it that maybe he's not the absolute villain, but he's so incredibly self-absorbed and self-righteous that everything is about him until the very end. But because he FINALLY shows up for a thing and then lets her go in the end, yay for him! What a swell, swell guy.

    • Like 2

  7. Posted

    Still doesn't quite answer how they went from 'I will always love you' to 'oh right, that guy I used to know years ago'. They left on cordial terms, it seems astonishing to me that they wouldn't stay in touch. Maybe an email saying 'congrats on your new movie role, I thought you'd be happy to hear I finally opened my club, and by the way I will be using your intellectual property for my logo'?

    Maybe he thinks loving her forever is the same as royalties.

    • Like 6

  9. Posted

    But he just came home from tour just to surprise her and to suggest she comes with him! Surely she doesn't think that this is sustainable with her being unemployed in LA and waiting for the phone to ring? I don't buy this at all.

    Yeah, but he's not like, "Hey, when your show is over, wanna join me on the tour for a bit?" He's asking her to abandon the thing that she's working on (and that he told her to make) to come be with him. I don't see that as very supportive.

    • Like 2

  11. Posted

    I'm still going through the comments but there are things in this movie that infuriate me but not for the usual reasons.

     

    I was one of those kids with big dreams of making it in the city. My best friend is in his mid 40s, i'm in my early 40s and we will still wax poetically now and then about "we're going to make it!" -- we know we're not, nor do I think we really want to.

     

    As a playwright, I am constantly submitting, similar to auditioning, except JESUS the waits. If I get a response within 3 months, I'm happy, sometimes 6 months, 9 months and sometimes I never hear back from an opp I've submitted to.

     

    I have a success rate of about 10% and make very little money at this playwrighting gig. But I keep at it, because, dammit I have to.

     

    So, that constant audition, rejection, audition cycle I can sympathize with, but I hate Seb's assertion that "well don't wait for it to come to you, write your own." Yeah that works, SOMETIMES for SOME PEOPLE, but not everyone has those skills, and even if you write one great script (for example Stallone writing ROCKY) it doesn't mean that you will be able to write another and another and another (see Stallone's other scripts he's written :D).

     

    It's such a...I hate to say simplistic view because that's not quite right, but it's totally something I hear a lot of musicans say.

    It's really interesting to me, one of the first real MM discussions I took part in was THAT THING YOU DO! and this feels like the opposite of TTYD! They are both about musicians striving to strike out on their own, to create their own art and chaffing against the system. But Guy seems to be a more practical musician, understanding what makes things popular and what people want to hear and working with that.

    Wtf are you trying to say about Cobra? :)

     

    Anyway, yeah, I think you're right. But it's not limited just to this thing. It's the whole American Dream angle. Without going too much into an anti-capitalism tangent, it's the idea we hear repeated over and over and over again that if you just work hard, you can make it! Never mind that - whether it's being an actress or a playwright or a musician or a copywriter or a developer or a designer - it's often more about who you know mixed with a large amount of dumb luck. (and the end of the movie proves that)

     

    Like, I get that he's trying to encourage her creatively, and that's cool. But it definitely is silly for either of them to pin of their hopes for her career on this one thing.

    • Like 4

  13. Posted

    Oh sorry this time I knew which "he" you meant but I guess my point is that in my opinion no matter which character is white I think they need to butt the fuck out of the conversation and maybe listen to the black person telling them what jazz is like lol.

    Man, now I really wish we had THIS movie. I know you said Michael B Jordan earlier, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Wyatt Cenac playing Seb. Have you ever seen Medicine for Melancholy? I imagine a Seb that's very similar to that character. Instead of being upset about the jazz club being turned into a "samba and tapas bar," it would be about gentrification. Like, every single thing the movie is doing with Seb's character would work so much better.

    • Like 2

  14. Posted

    I still think he is whitesplaining jazz to Keith which is why I basically brought up this topic. Keith is telling him how jazz was about going into the future and as a black man I trust his view on jazz a looooot more than Seb.

    Sorry, too many "hes" again. I meant that having White Keith whitesplain jazz to Black Seb changes that dynamic and makes Keith the asshole. But when it's JL and Gosling, Gosling comes off looking like the asshole.

    • Like 2

  15. Posted

    So something I had been thinking about a lot since I first saw this was what if John Legend and Ryan Gosling had switched parts. Let's take out the star factor from Ryan and the fact that we're not totally sure John can act well enough to carry a movie and basically just focus on what the movie would be like if a black man had played Seb.

    A few things about that:

     

    1. I would have believed Ryan Gosling as a "Keith" more than John Legend.

    2. It would have actually made Keith more of a "villain" if he was whitesplaining how jazz needs to progress to a black character.

    3. I'd totally be into it.

    • Like 3

  16. Posted

    It’s fine. We’re cool. I picked that moment because it was the culmination of the two-hours proceeding it. It doesn’t matter. I just don’t get the woo-hoos at the end of the movie. That’s all. I just feel like it was saying something more than “she became a great actress and now everything is just terrific for her.”

    Yeah, I totally get it. I just disagree, but I totally didn't want you to think I was saying your point wasn't made in good faith or anything.

    We’re allowed to have dissenting views. It’s just my opinion. I just don’t see it as a success story is all.

    Good thing, because we do frequently disagree, but I think we manage to do so amicably, like, 90% of the time :)

     

    Anyway, I think the issue here is that you and I disagree on what constitutes a success story. I don't think a success story necessarily has to end in super happy feelings. They don't have to high-five and do synchronized cartwheels out of the jazz club (although that would be fun as hell to watch). If there is any regret there about what could have been, it's sort of a "this is the price I paid for getting where I am." And I still think she's successful in pretty much every way. Sure, we don't see much of her life post-stardom, so we don't know FOR SURE if she's happy, but we also don't see anything that really suggests that she isn't. So it's by and large left up to the viewer to decide. For me, she seems happy and successful at the end, and the final club scene is her acknowledging what she had to "give up" (sort of?) to obtain her success.

     

    I'd generally say that achieving your goals is tantamount to success. That doesn't mean everything is hunky dory all the time in your life. And I could buy that maybe she still has feelings for Seb, but I also don't think those feelings diminish her success. So I guess what I'm trying to say (in a very circuitous fashion) is that whether or not it's a success story depends on how you define success. And for me, it totally works as the story of Mia's success.

    • Like 4

  17. Posted

    I have more to say in response, Cameron, but I'm on my phone and don't want to type it all out, so that'll have to wait. But I definitely want to say that I was in no way accusing you of being disingenuous. My point was that focusing on one moment ignores the context of everything we're shown before that moment.

    • Like 3

  18. Posted

    The face of fulfillment:

     

    ending1.jpg

     

    I think the moody, blue lighting really highlights her sense of contentment - lol

    You could just as easily take a random frame of her face from the previous few minutes of the movie where it's showing her life and make the opposite point.

    I mean, you guys seem really sold on the whole Shades relationship. I'll tell you what, if any of you can tell me his character's name (without looking it up on IMDb), I'll buy that she's madly in love with him. Like I said before, I feel like she probably has a lot of affection for Shades, but I don't believe she has passion for him. I keep going back to the scene in When Harry Met Sally where they are arguing about the ending of Casablanca and Meg Ryan is saying that Ingrid Bergman is happier being with Claude Raines.

     

    Here's the thing, the last things Mia and Seb say to one another is "I will always love you."

    I don't get why any of that has anything to do with whether or not she has found success or fulfillment. It doesn't matter who the guy is; she's moved on and is enjoying her life. We don't see much of their relationship because it doesn't matter. What matters is that she's in a different place in her life and has a new family.

     

    You can still love someone and realize that being together isn't the best thing for you. That doesn't mean your life isn't fulfilled because you can't be with that one person. Even if you buy that Mia is sad or regretful when she sees Seb, it doesn't mean you aren't sometimes wistful when you think about what might have been (even though you know that that "what might have been" is a lie). Her whole happiness doesn't rest with Seb.

    • Like 2

  19. Posted

    I must also admit as somebody that does like jazz and owns albums by Thelonious Monk, Charles Mingus, John Coltrane, etc. I much prefer Seb's kind of jazz to John Legend's. While I appreciate his efforts to modernize it and make it more acceptable and relatable to the modern audience I'd still rather go to Seb's and listen to his music.

    X16UIx0.gif

    • Like 7

  22. Posted

    Mia and Seb definitely attain their goals, but I wouldn’t call it, as Fister did, a “Success Story” because there’s no sense of fulfillment. It would be like calling Citizen Kane a success story. Contrast either of these movies with something like Rocky - which I would consider a success story - where the character faces insurmountable odds, doesn’t win the fight, but finds peace within himself.

    Mia seems very fulfilled at the end of the movie. I don't think her not ending up with Seb detracts from that. Seb is probably less so because he didn't end up with Mia, and that's what I keep circling back to with the dream ballet being his fantasy and not hers. He thinks about what life with Mia would have been like, but she seemingly has a pretty great life without him.

     

    I came inches from picking The Last Five Years this time around, but I love the stage musical so much and I have heard the film isn't as effective (full disclosure: I haven't seen it yet). I'm not convinced that the way that Jamie and Kathy grow apart over their five years matches the way that Seb and Mia do: the cathartic "I'll always love you" moment before Mia goes to Paris is one of my favorite parts. I can see the connection in terms of rising success, but Jamie's a publishing superstar and Kathy's a failed actress, so it's a tenuous connection, I'd say.

    Seb becomes a rather popular musician while Mia is still struggling. I think the main difference as far as success goes is that Cathy never finds success and is bitter about it, while Mia obviously does and is more hurt by the lack of support she gets from her partner (she obviously never gets her version of "The Schmuel Song"). There are other things that are way different in terms of their relationship

    (e.g., Seb never cheats on her)

    , but the way the TLFY portrays the Cathy's struggle to become an actress works so much better. I like the montage of Mia reading (badly) for the various roles, but I think "Climbing Uphill" does the same thing but better. There are obviously structural things about the two movies where it doesn't make sense to compare them as a straight 1:1, but in terms of both movies' exploration of career success, I think you can draw a pretty strong connection. It's just that the characters end up in different places by the end (or...beginning?). I see Cathy and Mia as almost alternate universe versions of each other.

    • Like 2

  24. Posted

    So, did anyone like this movie? ;)

    I mean...I did! Not liking Seb doesn't mean I don't like the movie (it just means I see the movie more as Mia's success story more than Seb's)

     

    There's something I've been debating whether or not to bring up because it involves a movie I'm about 80% might be my next pick. But that's months away, so maybe it doesn't matter. Anyway, have any of y'all seen The Last Five Years? I think it might have something to do with my enthusiasm being less than it was when I first saw it. There's so much in The Last Five Years that's analogous to this movie, but that movie does it so much better (and I'd guess the stage version did it even better than that). I mean, the two movies aren't really the same, but they deal with a lot of the same themes around success.

    • Like 4

  25. Posted

    Didn't Miles Teller already play drums before Whiplash? Not jazz great level but okay at drumming level?

    Sorry, yeah. You're right. Teller played drums, but he had never played jazz drums before, so he had to learn how to play that style and practiced a shitload. The blisters on his hands were not effects....

    • Like 1
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