Philly Cheesesteak

Somehow, I doubt that. I checked. Most of them are on Devin's side. Here, it's more an even split. He's looking at these opinions about WoK - Galactiac's view, your's, etc - with a sad shake of the head.

And keep in mind, Zodiac is one of Devin's all-time favourites. It wouldn't be an evenly handed episode.

Now "Memories of Murder" would be one hell of an interesting Canon episode.

Persepolis would be wonderful.

Oh, hey, and if Amy was complaining about Wrath of Khan looking like a cheap TV movie? How about a critically beloved, award-winning TV movie? We already have very few, if anything, LGBT-themed movies in the Canon. Would this qualify, even if this movie was made for TV?

Plus, it makes it all the more interesting. It creates friction between the two. Devin "gets" geek, which often means playing by certain rules an outsider like Amy won't necessarily understand... or if she does, she'll question why the rules are there to begin with. Which, of course, leads an equally exasperated Devin to accuse Amy of nitpicking or hound after the conclusions she's come to. Going back to what I said before, because Amy isn't as steeped into geekdom as Devin is, when she sees something like Re-Animator and Evil Dead II side by side, or Cannibal Holocaust and Blair Witch Project, she just sees two examples of a genre that share many surface-level similarities. She thinks about it in terms of functionality. "Here's one gory horror flick, why do we need the other?" But then Devin points out we already have at least a dozen coming-of-age narratives in the Canon. Amy will retort those movies at least approached things differently- To which Devin pounces and says, "So do these two movies!" And you know what? It's a legitimate counterattack. Amy is not as well-versed in these kinds of movies and---yeah, I'll say it---she doesn't quite "get it." Conversely, when the movie handles more female-oriented subject matter, the positions are reversed, the tables are turned. Strictly in the realm of geekdom cinema, though? That right there is the strength of the show, especially where geek movies are concerned. It's the Insider (Devin) vs. the Outsider (Amy).

Deer Hunter is one of the quintessential Vietnam movies, how can you ignore it? And I was not in any way advocating Seven Samurai vs. Ran XD Oh, God, no. That'd just kill me right there. Here's a thought: Yojimbo vs. Fistful of Dollars? Same plot, two different movies, launched Eastwood's career, Leone's Spaghetti Western directorial debut, the lawsuit that followed- Ooooh... I have a good one. How about 1947's Black Narcissus? That should bring plenty of interesting content to an episode. What we have here is a film that subtly critiques British colonialism in India... and yet only hired one Indian actor in the principle cast. Sure, there are background extras, but literally every other named character that isn't one of the Nuns is a white person in brownface. Talk about sending mixed signals, eh? But in the history of colour in cinema, it was one of the first British films to be in full colour after WWII, so imagine coming out of the horrors of the bombings to watch a film... whose first opening shot is a field of vibrant and vivid pink flowers? That blew people's minds back then! On top of that, the movie's a psychosexual drama, it may very well have been the prototypical "Nunsploitation" movie. Even better, in accordance with the rules Devin and Amy have set? This movie is accessible. It's on YouTube for free. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GjRnbY0jG4

My mother's a huge James Bond fan, but we already have Casino Royale in the Canon. She's also a huge Trekkie, but we're still debating whether WoK gets in. Hm. Ooh! The Graduate!

Listening to this episode was interesting and once again illustrates this sort of pop cultural divide between Amy and Devin. Devin breathes geek, schlock and lowbrow cinema. We've seen him get defensive (or on the offensive) in certain episodes when he champions movies like Re-Animator or Cannibal Holocaust... and whenever Amy expresses skepticism about their quality. Every time. Meanwhile, Amy has repeatedly shown a greater appreciation for film that's, well, basically the exact opposite of everything Devin loves. We've seen her exasperation with schlock cinema and b-films, and when it comes to geek cinema her weariness and frustration of gen-x geek staples getting universal love and acclaim- So here, it's interesting. She's the outsider. She's had no real experience with Star Trek, her exposure has been limited, and unlike Devin or Dave she has no special attachment to the overall franchise that elevates this movie to her beyond just "okay." I was playing the episode at work while my friend and I were packing chocolates (I work in a chocolate shop. Nice, ain't it?), and my friend---a huge Trekkie---had more than a few bones to pick with Amy's approach to Wrath of Khan as a film- But the more I've thought about it, the more I find myself sympathizing with Amy's approach. Yeah, she doesn't know anything about Star Trek. For a movie that banks on even a passing familiarity with the series, without that connection what should be a dramatic epic of aging heroes forced to deal with mortality and legacy... becomes a mediocre TV movie with cheap set designs and slightly melodramatic acting. For those who love Star Trek, that's part of the charm! For Amy, it's (heh, appropriately enough) alien and strange. She's by no means a geek cinephile like Devin. So whenever episodes focus on geek fare, I am amazed by how far she's willing to argue from her position as a decidedly non-geek film fan (in the classic sense of the word) against BMD's uber-geek. She's less forgiving of certain tropes and clichés and traditions and so she expects higher standards for the Canon. Without that emotional connection, Wrath of Khan fails for her in every possible way. Amy put up an admirable fight against two hardcore Trek fans, gotta say.

Absolutely. I'm seeing some discontentment in the fanbase and the forums, and at the same time I don't want to deny there are genuine accomplishments and gems in the geek/gen-x demo... But this isn't strictly a "geek" canon. It's the film canon. We need other voices to be heard, other genres a chance in the spotlight. We need all examples of low, mid and highbrow here. Too much of one thing and it gets a little homogenous. Still, you're right that maaaaaybe this might be compelling some to vote or act out of spite against the geek stuff. That frustration is palpable, I can totally understand it, but I don't want any movies to suffer for it either. We need a balance.

The Act of Killing would be a slam dunk... And maybe Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse.

In my defence, it's the first Russian movie that came to mind,

Obligatory Every Frame a Painting link !

Not to mention it's arguably Jim Carrey's best role. Well, alongside Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

I'd like everyone to keep in mind, I LOVE that same geek/gen-x faire! But I also believe we should allow a greater berth of this medium. Even Amy has more than once complained about this. I think it'd be great to branch out, talk about other kinds of cinema. Imagine an episode about Mary and Max, for instance.

Because a recent criticism of the Canon in these circles is that it's primarily focused on gen-x and geek faire than any other kind of cinema. If the Canon is meant to be some symbolic Noah's Ark for cinema, it's doing a great disservice to the entire medium and its history if we only focus on so narrow a criteria as "films the hosts grew up with."

It's really starting to feel like that, isn't it?

Take a shot every time Devin mansplains macho tough guy actors, traditional masculine appeal and story beats to Amy and exasperates half the fanbase in the process.

One of the most enjoyable toe-tapping comedies of all time, the best SNL skit to transition to the big screen, or a slightly overrated 80's John Belushi vehicle? Is it just a string of barely strung together celebrity cameos or is it a fun and anarchic wild ride? Do its memorable lines, musical numbers and thrilling car chase sequences make it a Canon contender or do we already have too many 80's hits in the Canon to begin with? Is there enough room in the Canon for another John Belushi movie? Now, me personally, I love The Blues Brothers, but that might be the nostalgia talking. I grew up with this movie, it introduced me to blues, R&B and jazz and I'll always find it funny- But I'm not sure how it translates to others. What do you guys think? Is The Blues Brothers Canon worthy?

When you put it like that... maybe we should give indulgence picks a fairer shake after all.

Could I somehow give you the key to the internet? Because you just won it.

Amen, to ALL of this.

It occurs to me, do we even have a French film in the Canon? Update: Whoops, I forgot, yes we do- The 400 Blows. My bad, my bad.

To reiterate my thoughts: Part of me wanted to vote "yes" as a way of balancing the scales. Devin's indulgence pick, when it really shouldn't have by definition, made it into the Canon. By this logic, Amy's pick should deserve the same treatment. I don't even like the idea of indulgence picks to begin with, but if they're going to do more in the future we might as well make the most of it. At the very least, I would sort of like a representation of non-geek ambitious and messy passion projects to go along with the geek-inclined "we're just fine examples of well-crafted fun" kind represented by Re-Animator. That said, I voted "no." Again, this Canon should be an exemplary gallery of craft and talent in all genres, styles, schools and eras. As someone noted earlier, if Re-Animator has any virtue in its corner it's its sheer dedication to its exercise in gore and spectacle. Meanwhile, Pennies from Heaven, despite all that heart and passion and aspiration I've been harping on about, cannot for the life of it get any of those things right onscreen. This is kind of a problem. I'm sympathetic to ambitious messes in cinema but we have rules and standards for a reason. ... But by God do I sympathize with Amy's point about the influx of geek and male-focused genre flicks in the Canon. To go back to my first paragraph, it's why I think it'd balance the scales a tad. If it were somehow voted in, despite any of my own personal reservations I wouldn't complain about it at the end of the day. I guess it's a soft no from me, albeit attached with several asterisks and caveats.

Fair point, fair point. Things sort of just branched out there for a bit. I take full responsibility there.