EPISODE 193 — Into the Thunderdome

[tyroneslothrop 124]

.

[souprman 10477]

in more civil news me and the one and only Veegs have been having a lovely PM chat. chew on that guys. yeah no joke.

[blazeheart 48]

~ 1:49:40

 

"...a man does..." = a manda's

[AlbinLundholm 4020]

Souprman I love you

[Shampoodler 1489]

Not sure if it qualifies, but last night I witnessed a WWII veteran at a nursing home karaoke describe his Korean-American nurse as "Asian". While no one was actually offended, and no one even knows or cares who he is, he was holding a harmonica in public at the time. If you guys think we can squeeze two episodes and some forum scuffling out of this let me know and I'll contact his people. I do not think he could stay fully awake for a 45 minute phone call, though.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

a journalist who is behaving like a disrespectful and uninformed bully and provocateur

[...]

the journalist behaved as a bully.

This line of argument really bothers me. What makes her a bully? She tried to conduct an interview with someone she's assigned to write about. When her interview didn't get much good material, she went to other sources to try and get a better picture. It's standard journalistic due diligence.

 

The only thing she did that one can reasonably object to was interviewing people close to him. But even with that, she's said she didn't know he'd previously requested that journalists not do that. It was an honest mistake, and an easy one to make for an artist like SKM, who even yall admit is relatively quite obscure. And if you read her article you'll notice she didn't use anything she might have gotten from Kozelek's associates. She quotes only him, no one else. If anyone was out of line, it's SKM.

 

I understand the urge to rush to the defense of a great artist whose work we love and who we feel close to personally because of that. But even great artists are human beings who have flaws and make mistakes and it's wrong to protect them from rightful criticism when they fuck up. It's also messed up to get mad at people who are turned off of his music by his behavior. Yall have been saying his personality shouldn't affect your opinion of his music but his music should affect your opinion of his personality, but you can't have it both ways. The relationship between art and artist is a two-way street.

[mikebonetti 3718]

Andy Daly is hilarious.

 

And that case is definitely closed.

[mattbesser 605]

Wow. I'm in NYC for the Del Close Marathon. (improv4humans live tomorrow, Saturday 1-5pm, at UCBeast) so I haven't read this til now. Even now I can't read all these long posts but I'm surprised at such negative reaction to this. I thought we had a pretty civil discussion with four people. And we are just people with opinions, not politicians representing public policy. I think it takes a certain amount of guts to come on the show so i thank kate, soup, and wax for that. To criticize them seems ridiculous. Think of the glass half full. How many shows have this kind of discussion opportunities with fans? There are so many podcasts where nothing of societal importance is ever discussed. Be proud that we are all actively involved in these kind of debates. It's not done enough. But do we have to get mean on this forum?Aren't we all on the same team? We all know that the real enemy is the part of the comedy industry that creates things like Entourage. If you are disappointed in me, well, that disappoints me. I hate to think that Case Closed makes the show lose any fans. I think spirited debate is entertaining. I honestly don't care about the SKM issue that much and I could easily debate the other side of the issue. I find it fun taking a challenging stance on an issue, and I think it can be inspiring for good comedy. I know a lot of people hate it, so I'm pretty sure we've only done CC once in 2015. And I try to do extra long show when we do it. So I'm sorry I disappoint you but after all, I am only humon.

I also kind of wish the spirit of the forum after a Case Closed would be that since everybody is invited into the Thunderdome, then once the Case is Closed then the Case is Closed. It's like a gentlemen's (or gentlewoman's!) agreement. Otherwise it seems things always get nasty.

Long live Del!

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

I also kind of wish the spirit of the forum after a Case Closed would be that since everybody is invited into the Thunderdome, then once the Case is Closed then the Case is Closed. It's like a gentlemen's (or gentlewoman's!) agreement. Otherwise it seems things always get nasty.

Long live Del!

First of all thanks for sticking with Case Closed. I've strongly disagreed with your positions on the last couple but I agree that it's great to have these kinds of discussions on a comedy podcast. And thanks to everyone who called in, even souprman.

 

I think you're asking the impossible if you want us to stop debating the Cased Closed issues in the forum, though. Because they're these complicated, thorny issues, there's just no way to cover every angle in a single episode. And a lot of us do wish we could call in but aren't able to for scheduling reasons (happened to me twice) or stage fright or whatever reason. It seems like the more realistic (and more or less already followed) rule is that the debate doesn't carry over into subsequent episode threads. That way those of us who can't call in or feel like something wasn't covered that should have been get to say our piece and feel like we've contributed to the discussion.

 

Long live Del! Can't wait to hear the DCM episode.

[Listing Listener 11]

I think that going to your interviewee's friends for information after you were asked not to isn't quite covered under " journalistic due diligence." If someone did the same thing to you how would you feel about that?

[mattbesser 605]

First of all thanks for sticking with Case Closed. I've strongly disagreed with your positions on the last couple but I agree that it's great to have these kinds of discussions on a comedy podcast. And thanks to everyone who called in, even souprman.

 

I think you're asking the impossible if you want us to stop debating the Cased Closed issues in the forum, though. Because they're these complicated, thorny issues, there's just no way to cover every angle in a single episode. And a lot of us do wish we could call in but aren't able to for scheduling reasons (happened to me twice) or stage fright or whatever reason. It seems like the more realistic (and more or less already followed) rule is that the debate doesn't carry over into subsequent episode threads. That way those of us who can't call in or feel like something wasn't covered that should have been get to say our piece and feel like we've contributed to the discussion.

 

Long live Del! Can't wait to hear the DCM episode.

 

I guess I feel the discussion comes on the forum before the Case Closed. Isn't everyone here just repeating the same argument they made two weeks ago but being nastier about it? Criticizing fellow forum members seems especially unfair.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

I think that going to your interviewee's friends for information after you were asked not to isn't quite covered under " journalistic due diligence." If someone did the same thing to you how would you feel about that?

The only thing she did that one can reasonably object to was interviewing people close to him. But even with that, she's said she didn't know he'd previously requested that journalists not do that. It was an honest mistake, and an easy one to make for an artist like SKM, who even yall admit is relatively quite obscure. And if you read her article you'll notice she didn't use anything she might have gotten from Kozelek's associates. She quotes only him, no one else. If anyone was out of line, it's SKM.

Literally the next paragraph.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

I guess I feel the discussion comes on the forum before the Case Closed. Isn't everyone here just repeating the same argument they made two weeks ago but being nastier about it? Criticizing fellow forum members seems especially unfair.

There's definitely a lot of repeating variations on the same themes, but it's only natural to respond to what was said on the podcast just like we do every week, even if we're saying basically the same thing. Since the Case Closed episode itself is sort of the official word on the subject, it makes sense to want to have our positions in the case file. And sometimes new people chime in, or we respond to different points that came up on the podcast, or the discussion gave us ideas we didn't have in the previous week's forum. It can expand the discussion and take it in different, interesting directions. Worth the risk of rehashing imo.

 

I do agree that we seem to get meaner in these forums and that's unfortunate. I'm guilty of it for sure and still need to work on holding back.

 

I know I probably post too much for everyone's liking on these Case Closed threads, sorry if I'm drowning people out or discouraging anyone from contributing.

[souprman 10477]

Wow. I'm in NYC for the Del Close Marathon. (improv4humans live tomorrow, Saturday 1-5pm, at UCBeast) so I haven't read this til now. Even now I can't read all these long posts but I'm surprised at such negative reaction to this. I thought we had a pretty civil discussion with four people. And we are just people with opinions, not politicians representing public policy. I think it takes a certain amount of guts to come on the show so i thank kate, soup, and wax for that. To criticize them seems ridiculous. Think of the glass half full. How many shows have this kind of discussion opportunities with fans? There are so many podcasts where nothing of societal importance is ever discussed. Be proud that we are all actively involved in these kind of debates. It's not done enough. But do we have to get mean on this forum?Aren't we all on the same team? We all know that the real enemy is the part of the comedy industry that creates things like Entourage. If you are disappointed in me, well, that disappoints me. I hate to think that Case Closed makes the show lose any fans. I think spirited debate is entertaining. I honestly don't care about the SKM issue that much and I could easily debate the other side of the issue. I find it fun taking a challenging stance on an issue, and I think it can be inspiring for good comedy. I know a lot of people hate it, so I'm pretty sure we've only done CC once in 2015. And I try to do extra long show when we do it. So I'm sorry I disappoint you but after all, I am only humon.

I also kind of wish the spirit of the forum after a Case Closed would be that since everybody is invited into the Thunderdome, then once the Case is Closed then the Case is Closed. It's like a gentlemen's (or gentlewoman's!) agreement. Otherwise it seems things always get nasty.

Long live Del!

Hey Besser. Thanks for having me on it was a lot of fun. I really like case closed and I like to argue, obviously. I do get too carried away so I'd like to offer a blanket apology to anyone who I was rude to. Clearly it is not personal since we are strangers. I am very sorry if I upset you at all.

 

I get a little defensive to be lumped into certain types of ideologies. I think it's childish and unfair when this happens and it makes me react poorly as well.

 

I like having this forum to discuss whatever. On HH forum we post pictures of our pets and breakfast, and this week some haiku's. On HDTGM we rip movies and each others analysis of them apart. On CBB we are pretty much just silly until someone says something mean, usually about a female comic, and then the regulars get in line to defend said comic. On HS we just say "we love you man!" On WSGLL and WIU forums it's kind of a mini CBB type thing. My point is the forums are diverse. But it seems like they represent a tiny fraction of listener-ship.

 

I want to make a point to say Besser that this shit is great and you are doing something brave and unique. Case Closed is genius and inspiring and please don't stop. Some people are going to complain because that's just what people do. I think they are in the serious minority. There is actually a lot of support on the forum for this, it's just the naysayers tend to eat more vertical space than those who are on board.

 

To those who are hurt or upset. Take heart in the knowledge that we are actually all on the same side and no one is supporting bigotry in any way.

 

Peace & Love.

 

(debating making a 'last post' joke hmmmm....)

[KajusX 1807]

I've brought everyone a Case Closed cake. Come on, y'all, lean in and blow out the candles...

[Listing Listener 11]

Still must respectfully disagree with you Mr. Chang, sir. You are right in saying that she did not know that he would not like his friends contacted for info about him- however, and it's, well, literally, in the comments section of her article -she says that she would have anyway. Here's the direct quote from the journalist-

 

"1. I didn't know that at the time, 2. Even if I did, I still would have done it. It's basic journalism - and if someone says not to, that rings alarm bells."

So this was not quite the honest mistake you're saying. She would have done it anyway. And if you want to to call into question basic journalism than knowing enough about who you are trying to learn about to make them feel comfortable giving you a good story might be basic as well. Alarm bells? really?

 

And to completely clear I'm not rooting for Kozalek to keep acting like a nincompoop. I really really am not invested. But she doesn't get off scott free either saying stuff like that. It's silly- he's a guy who is a career musician not a member of congress or something.

 

 

 

 

So question, how would you feel? I'm not saying Kozalek is right at all, or justified, or that it really matters. Just that she was clearly willing to step over some boundaries and did,and that her behavior was apparently not so hot either.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

"1. I didn't know that at the time, 2. Even if I did, I still would have done it. It's basic journalism - and if someone says not to, that rings alarm bells."

[...]

So question, how would you feel? I'm not saying Kozalek is right at all, or justified, or that it really matters. Just that she was clearly willing to step over some boundaries and did,and that her behavior was apparently not so hot either.

Hmm that's an interesting wrinkle. I think then her worst crime is taking her job a little too seriously. Getting background on a person you're writing about is standard practice, and if they don't want you to that makes you question what they have to hide. But if you're doing a profile on an indie rock musician, it's probably better to have some chill and back off. You're not Woodward and Bernstein here.

 

That said, nothing she did even remotely justifies calling her a bitch and singing a song about how she wants to fuck him in front of a crowd of strangers who have no idea who she is. I'd definitely be mad if a journalist went around interviewing my friends about me but not mad enough to go where Kozelek went. And like I've said before, I wouldn't have had a problem with him if he hadn't used gendered insults. The private emails he sent also bother me, but the public shaming part is where he really crossed the line for me. I don't have a problem with him being an asshole/grouch who hates journalists poking at him, just don't strike back with misogyny.

[Hot - Slunch 772]

The cake scene was classic Andy Daly.

 

in more civil news me and the one and only Veegs have been having a lovely PM chat. chew on that guys. yeah no joke.

 

Sounds truly riveting.

[blockofice 82]

My two cents: I bit my tongue at the last episode where Kozelek was a topic of conversation, but I don't really know why anyone anywhere was terribly shocked by this latest incident. Mark's had a history of doing making these sort of comments for years, but with the uptick in press that he got after the release of Benji these outbursts and "jokes" and rants were just finally being publicized. Newer fans that hadn't spent years weighing the two sides of Kozelek, the sensitive singer that often portrays himself as being a paragon of kindness (see the story about fan in a wheelchair here: http://www.spin.com/...2014-interview/) and the rough, nasty grouch that occasionally spews bile.

 

Mark has had a long history of vitriol towards his fans. You can see it in 2012's "Sunshine In Chicago" ("My band played here a lot in the '90s when we had / Lots of female fans and fuck, they all were cute / Now I just sign posters for guys in tennis shoes") and "Cry Me A River Williamsburg Sleeve Tattoo Blues". It goes back way further than the past three years though.

 

Mark has had a long history of saying and writing unpleasant things about women. In "Down Through" from the first Red House Painters self-titled album, he sings about "feeling[ing] the sting in my hand / from when I hit you". Then on the next track on the album, "Katy Song", he sings about the "words from my cutting mouth / to your ear" which recalls "Down Through"s "violence that runs in [his] blood".

 

There's an argument to be made that these songs aren't necessarily the same diary style of writing as his last few albums under the Sun Kil Moon name, but Katy was Mark's longtime girlfriend and though he lyrical style was more poetic in the 90s, he was still almost always writing as Mark Kozelek and about the things that Mark Kozelek did and the people that Mark Kozelek knew.

 

I think that the big difference is that the Mark of the past seemed to regret his actions rather than revel in them. As someone that has enjoyed his music for nearly 15 years and has introduced it to a lot of friends and been helped through some really rough times by it, liking Mark and his music are two different things.

 

I'm not defending what he said in this specific incident, but I'm also not shocked in the least by it. That doesn't mean that I'm not repulsed and frustrated by it.

[Kickpuncher 5012]

"I love Andy Daly" is how you should win every debate.

 

If any presidential candidate does this next year, they've got my vote.

[FaceLikeThunder 2114]

The cake scene was classic Andy Daly.

 

 

 

Sounds truly riveting.

 

I'm proud that my submission caused such an amazing scene.

I burst out into snort when I heard Besser bringing out the second cake, brilliantly lobbing Andy a beach ball.

"ALRIGHT FUCK IT I'M GONNA DO IT AGAINNNN!!!"

top notch improv scenes all around.

[Protoman 117]

Matt Besser likes that terrible Taylor Swift track

 

 

OF COURSE

[Corky Kneivel 113]

Matt Besser likes that terrible Taylor Swift track

 

 

OF COURSE

 

 

Yeah I'm way more offended by Matt's music and movie choices than his Tebow bashing or his defense of people not having to censor themselves. I mean really...him calling X-Men 3 the best superhero movie is Case Closed worthy.

[KateRhoades 28]

Well, I had a fun time! I love all you people, even if you have different views than I do, and I love i4h.

 

[matte 588]

Please don't stop doing Case Closed! Maybe the segment should just go back to simpler topics, like politics and religion.