Episode 176 - The Jazz Singer: LIVE!

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

 

YES! Bubba asks Molly if she has any Charlie Parker at the Banjo/Robert E Lee party and she's like "Totally brah!" and then they bond over the record. That's the beginning of their beautiful lovestory and THAT'S why they named their son Charlie Parker.

[joshg 207]

Also she was his manager so she would have been out of work when he left? How did she survive? I definitely would not have dealt with him on a professional level ever again.

 

 

I believe this because Bubba looks out for Jess so much. I think he might just go around saving wayward white people.

 

How awesome would it be if the baby had been mixed?

 

 

 

 

I am relieved to hear people can think of better stories of Jewish identity. Because I worried that maybe Diamond was connected to the Jolson movie (even though it does not hold up) because there was so little portrayals of Jewishness on film.

 

I mean, we joke about lots of Jews in entertainment but we rarely see movies with Jewish characters.

 

 

The story of The Jazz Singer is how Hollywood treats these stories of the Jewish experience. The original 1922 short story has the protagonist initially ignore his father's wishes. "Jack Robin" is informed of his father's passing a few hours before the opening curtain, but he then returns to the synagogue to chant the Kol Nidre out of guilt. His future is left ambiguous, but he seems ready to give up his dreams to be with his family and people. The 1925 broadway play based on the short story ends the same way, but his father dies in the hospital when "Jakie" is on his way to the synagogue after he makes the decision to abandon the theater.

 

The star of the stage play, George Jessel, was signed by Harry Warner, the mostly Jewishly committed of the Warner Brothers and the only one born in Europe, to be the original star of "The Jazz Singer" movie. As the project evolved, though, Jessel's involvement fell through (he asked for too much money) and Jolson was hired, much to the relief of Jack and Sam Warner, who would control production of the film. Jessel was deemed too Jewish for a mainstream audience, and Jolson was a hugely successful entertainer and assimilated Jew: someone to whom the younger Warner Bros. could relate. It is then no surprise that the ending was changed, which, according to Jessel, was the real reason he would not star in the film:

 

"Instead of the boy leaving the theater to follow the tradition of his father in the synagogue, as in the play, the scenario had him return to the Winter Garden as a blackfaced comedian with his mother applauding wildly from a box seat. Money or no money, I would not do this version."

 

Harry Warner's granddaughter disagreed: "The end of The Jazz Singer was innovative in that it resolved a conflict familiar to immigrants of that time. Everyone gets what they want: the traditional father reconciles with his son and hears him sing in the synagogue, but the son goes back to be a success onstage."

 

So, if one were to trace the gradual loss of stakes through the various versions of this Jewish assimilation story:

 

1908 play, the basis for a 1940 Yiddish film "Overture to Glory": the protagonist dies, even after giving up the theater

1925 play "The Jazz Singer": the father dies and the protagonist gives up the theater

1927 movie "The Jazz Singer": the protagonist reconciles with his father before the father dies, eventually returning to the theater (in a minstrel show)

1937 Yiddish film "The Cantor's Son": the protagonist gives up America altogether, returns to his family

1980 movie "The Jazz Singer": no consequences whatsoever: the father cheers his son onstage

 

So even if there are portrayals of Jewishness on film, Hollywood seems to prioritize the assimilation aspect; everything is okay as long as the protagonist doesn't make any sacrifices for his religion. The earlier Yiddish films are obviously intended for an exclusively Jewish audience, and therefore make no attempt to assuage good feelings about assimilation and secularism.

 

A more recent example of this is Keeping the Faith, where Ben Stiller's rabbi character ends up with Jenna Elfman, even though the whole point of the movie is that he can't marry a gentile. The movie throws the audience the flimsiest of kosher bones at the very end, where it's revealed that she's taking conversion classes. Not that she'll definitely convert...she's just taking classes.

 

Here is the scene where the cantor actually dies at the end:

 

https://youtu.be/5WK_6ntuEls?t=2m20s

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

I’m not trying to say she’s a “bad” person, but they both definitely want different things. She wants to be married to the Cantor and teach at the shul; he wants to write “jazz” or “rock” music. I think she wants him to give up on secular music and settle down. I think this is the point of the scene where he rebuffs her advances. It’s not that he’s just being mopey. He knows that she’s thinking about children, while he’s afraid having kids will tie him down. Molly believes in him right from the start and that’s what he’s attracted to.

 

I think it’s all a big metaphor. Jess has a lot of sincere affection for Rivka/his faith, but his passion is for Molly/superstardom.

Olive branch time ... the holidays are a naturally contentious time of year.

 

 

Anyway ...

 

You're probably not wrong to read the film as an allegorical middle-aged bildungsroman that opines on the choice between familiarity and obligation vs. dreams and desires. That's an age-old humanist dilemma that lots of great art touches upon.

 

The problem that Elektra and Polly are pointing out is that this movie symbolizes that great humanist dilemma by making it, in part, about a choice between two women, both of whom would have their own lives to lead and existential crises to deal with in the real world. Anyone who would treat another person as flippantly as Jess treats both Molly and Rivka would be a IRL douchenozzle.

 

This isn't really a generalization about women in movies, either ... I generally dislike stories that reduce any of its characters down to their basic traits in order to make them props in the protagonist's melodrama -- although it has to be pointed out again that these two women in question are very flat and static characters. Nevertheless, they are presented not as people, but as options.

 

Sure, real-life relationships are ended every day because the two people have irrevocable shifts in their life goals, but these things don't typically come out of nowhere. Yussel, however, just goes. He jumps at the chance to go with Bubba's band knowing that he's going to try to get his own career going, which means he'll prolong his stay as long past those first two weeks as necessary. By the end of those three months, he's not even happy to see her when she shows up because she represents the life he's actively trying to leave behind. That's a douche move. It's not Rivka's fault that Yussel comes to see their life together as a symbol of failure to achieve his dreams, and as an audience, all we see is him treating his wife like an obstacle in his path and making Rivka sad.

 

Likewise, if we take at face value that her attraction to him is genuine, then Molly has no idea that she is also a writ-large representation of this new life that Yussel is after. For all she knows, she an active player and partner in his life who believes their relationship will endure regardless of how their careers go ... I mean, they had nothing when they met, right? Not to mention the whole "giving birth to your child" thing. Then, practice goes rough one day because he's in his head about life's hard choices and he throws a fit and bails, not just on the career but on Molly, too. And she's left behind to pick up the piece of a life she was trying to build with him, too.

 

Basically, he's just selfish. He's mostly honest with Rivka about what he wants, but that doesn't make his actions unselfish. And sure, anyone can be selfish, but he never pays for it ... he gets every thing he wants, not just personally but professionally as well.

[Elektra Boogaloo 3371]

 

*sigh* It was the mini after Bratz.. .

Sometimes we need a devil's advocate. Maybe add some more hoo-ahs! To your posts?

 

WHY ISN'T THIS MOVIE ABOUT MOLLY AND BUBBA

 

I gotta say ... I think I'd yell.

Again, Bubba is the real hero. It should be about him. Would not be surprised to find he was like Molly's Lamaze partner and there in the delivery room.

 

 

YES! Bubba asks Molly if she has any Charlie Parker at the Banjo/Robert E Lee party and she's like "Totally brah!" and then they bond over the record. That's the beginning of their beautiful lovestory and THAT'S why they named their son Charlie Parker.

 

I missed this! But adds credence to the idea that Bubba is "The Jazz Singer" if he at least has shown interest in jazz.

 

 

Can someone with better graphic making abilities than I make a fancy quote attributed to Sir Laurence, Baron Olivier, First of His Name or Whatever that is just "this piss is shit."??? I need it.

[PollyDarton 1807]

I mean, we joke about lots of Jews in entertainment but we rarely see movies with Jewish characters.

 

If anyone is looking for more current Jew-centric (that doesn't seem right?) entertainment you should check out "Transparent" - despite the recent controversy with Jeffrey Tambour, the show has unbelievably great storytelling and it's just as much about being Jewish as it is about be transgendered.

Also see the Coen brother's "A Serious Man" which is about being Jewish in 1960's Minnesota. That's a great fucking film.

[RyanSz 3140]

I could not fathom why they didn't play jazz AT ALL during this movie. They played basically every other genre except for jazz and rap, even his backing band wasn't playing jazz in the beginning of the film. I assume the change happened because Diamond was cast, but who honestly could they have had in mind if not for him?

[PollyDarton 1807]

Can someone with better graphic making abilities than I make a fancy quote attributed to Sir Laurence, Baron Olivier, First of His Name or Whatever that is just "this piss is shit."??? I need it.

Ask and thou shalt receive!

[LTL 154]

As an actual black person I wish people would stop referring to his black make up as "blackface" ...also I legit love this movie and all the music!

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

As an actual black person I wish people would stop referring to his black make up as "blackface" ...also I legit love this movie and all the music!

Yeah, I try to remember to say "minstrel" whenever talking about this stuff, which I haven't even touched because I'm so baffled by every other aspect of this movie. Plus, some of you guys are holding it down well.

 

This movie came out the year that I was born, and in 2017, we might be gobsmacked by the "black club" scene in this movie, but I clearly remember watching Bugs Bunny riff off of Al Jolson and watching the Uncle Remus portions of Song of the South when I was a child. Minstrelsy was a major part of vaudeville, which all the early greats (Bob Hope, Bing Crosby, Lucy and Desi, Jerry Lewis, et al) were a part of. It's really interesting to see how ubiquitous the minstrel culture was in America, and how long it lasted ... it was only recently that Uncle Ben and Mrs. Butterworth didn't completely look like minstrel characters. Michigan J. Frog was the mascot for a major television network when I worked for them just 10 years ago. The makeup of just about every clown in every circus pays homage to Jolson's look. Hell, just about every college film studies class requires a viewing of Birth of a Nation. It's so insidiously pejorative and hateful, and its remnants are everywhere because it was so pervasive and accepted for so long.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

 

Yeah I agree with you on the "your SO should believe in you thing," but I have to point out that Rivka and Jess's father were right. They didn't want him to go to LA out of a fear that he would never come back and Rivka was wary of Molly because she thinks there might be something going on with between her and her husband... which is exactly what happens.

Isn't her skepticism valid if it is actually an accurate prediction of future behavior?

 

But just because they “were right” about him not wanting to come back to his dreary, passionless, life of emotional stagnation, doesn’t make it right for them to put a guilt trip on him and try to prevent him from achieving his dreams. I also wouldn’t say she was right about Molly since nothing happens until after they separate. While they were together, he was completely faithful to Rivka.

 

 

But that aside, you're right about Molly - she believes in him and is light and funny in contrast to Rivka who is very serious and cold. I guess I'm just not sure that makes amends for up and leaving his childhood sweetheart after a month in LA. Does that make him a bad person?

probably not - Douche bag though? Yeah!

 

See, this is where I think people are being unfair to Jess. When I was in High School/early College, do you know what I wanted to do more than anything else in the world? Marry my girlfriend. I loved her so much it hurt, you know? I was totally dopey, stupid in love with her and she with me. Do you know what I’m super glad never happened? Getting married to her. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll always have affection for her, but it’s a fucking blessing we didn’t stay together. Because even though we were fully in love with one another, we weren’t complete people yet. We were trapped by the bonds of love. And knowing how we both ended up (her a hardcore Christian Conservative and me a Progressive, un-religious, Liberal), we would have either made each other absolutely miserable, or would have - like Jess and Rivka - had to deny our fully actualized selves.

 

So, yes, he separates from his wife, but isn’t that better for both of them in the long run? Their life goals are completely different. Like, when people break up, why does their always have to be a bad guy? Why can’t it just be that two people have grown apart or just plain shouldn’t be together?

[grudlian. 4725]

I could not fathom why they didn't play jazz AT ALL during this movie. They played basically every other genre except for jazz and rap, even his backing band wasn't playing jazz in the beginning of the film. I assume the change happened because Diamond was cast, but who honestly could they have had in mind if not for him?

Wait a second. Are you saying that they were going to make Jazz Singer and then they got Neil Diamond, changing the movie to fit him? Because I assumed Neil Diamond brought the idea to others.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

But just because they “were right” about him not wanting to come back to his dreary, passionless, life of emotional stagnation, doesn’t make it right for them to put a guilt trip on him and try to prevent him from achieving his dreams.

 

This is only a valid statement if we completely dismiss the upheaval Jess's dream chasing has on Rivka's life! Come on now, buddy ...

 

 

 

See, this is where I think people are being unfair to Jess. When I was in High School/early College, do you know what I wanted to do more than anything else in the world? Marry my girlfriend. I loved her so much it hurt, you know? I was totally dopey, stupid in love with her and she with me. Do you know what I’m super glad I never did? Marry her.

[...]

Like, when people break up, why does their always have to be a bad guy? Why can’t it just be that two people have grown apart or just plain shouldn’t be together?

Okay, I get this because I was in the exact same situation. But we aren't dealing with lovesick teenagers ... these people are in their late 30s. Of course a person is still allowed to chase their dreams at that age, but when you've built a life together with someone for two decades, deciding you want something new is absolutely going to have an impact on the other person. Screw a guilt trip ... that'd be worth damages in a court of law. His desire to change his life, and his choice to end his marriage for it, neither make Jess a bad person, but let's not pretend these aren't moves that will have fallout that he should bear responsibility for.

 

Look, I'm just going to say what we're all thinking here: Paul Scheer said a dozen times that he loves this movie, and he and Cameron H are boys, and they're going to have each other's back, no matter what. Cameron's going to support Paul's inexplicable love of this movie, and Paul is going to support Cameron's segregationalist views, and together they're just going to stonewall any attempt to bring reason and logic to this discussion.

 

#sad

#resist

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

The story of The Jazz Singer is how Hollywood treats these stories of the Jewish experience.

[...]

So even if there are portrayals of Jewishness on film, Hollywood seems to prioritize the assimilation aspect; everything is okay as long as the protagonist doesn't make any sacrifices for his religion. The earlier Yiddish films are obviously intended for an exclusively Jewish audience, and therefore make no attempt to assuage good feelings about assimilation and secularism.

 

This is a really interesting critique.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

Okay, I get this because I was in the exact same situation. But we aren't dealing with lovesick teenagers ... these people are in their late 30s. Of course a person is still allowed to chase their dreams at that age, but when you've built a life together with someone for two decades, deciding you want something new is absolutely going to have an impact on the other person. Screw a guilt trip ... that'd be worth damages in a court of law. His desire to change his life, and his choice to end his marriage for it, neither make Jess a bad person, but let's not pretend these aren't moves that will have fallout that he should bear responsibility for.

 

We know Neil Diamond was in his late Thirties, but do we know for sure that's how old he was supposed to be playing in the movie? If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that he's supposed to be in his late Twenties. I know Neil can't exactly pull that off, but it's not all that uncommon in Hollywood for people to play (sometimes much) younger than they actually are.

 

(ETA: I have know idea where the audience member got his information, but if the terrorist attack Jess’ father is talking about is indeed the attack in Israel in 1967, and at the time of the attack Jess was - as his father puts it “playing in the street,” then it does provide some evidence that Jess is probably in his Twenties. However, it also implies that - unless Jess was playing in the street at 17 or 18-years old, he’s supposed to be even younger than I previously thought.)

 

So imagine this: you're at the end of your Twenties, you've been married to the only S.O. you've ever been with (the one your parents picked out for you) since you were probably 19-years-old. You're at a crossroads in your life, you either accept that this is what your life is or you can try - one last time - for something more. You can't be in the middle any longer. I firmly believe that you owe it to yourself to take that shot. He invited Rivka to come along with him, but she turned him down. And, again, that's fine, that's who she is, but the music is who he is.

 

Also, you should also consider that the showcase song is "Love on the Rocks." It's not something he writes during the course of the movie, it's a song already he's already written when the action begins. Why would he write such a depressing song about love gone sour?

 

Look at these lyrics (spoiler alert: they weren't written by a happily married person)

 

And when they know they have you

Then they really have you

Nothing you can do or say

You got to leave, just get away

 

I don't think he wrote it because he hoped that one day some Billy Idol-type star might record it. I think it's more likely that it's statement about the state of his marriage. And maybe that's why it's so important to him that it's recorded correctly. Because, for him, it's something real and personal. Regardless of whether he goes to LA or not, their relationship was already doomed. The only question was whether it was going to end in divorce or years of bitterness and recriminations.

[PollyDarton 1807]

I hear ya Cameron H. You have well thought out points and I'm with you. No one should stay in a loveless marriage.

 

I guess my real complaint about the movie is not even any of this. It's called The Jazz Singer and yet the central conflict has almost zero to do with the actual obstacles someone would find when they are trying to become a famous singer. It's like when a really creative parent wraps a Christmas present to look like a giraffe but when you unwrap it, it's just a bunch of socks.

 

I rewatched the trailer and it is kind of a beat by beat retelling of the Canter/Rivka/Molly story. So that's what they were selling from the beginning... a melodrama staring Neil Diamond. I guess I thought it was going to be more about his rise to fame than his lovelife.

 

The trailer really is almost a mini version of the movie up until Jess and Molly fall in love.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

Man, it's just like me ... spending Thanksgiving with new friends for the first time, and I get comfy and try to play along, then I come on just a little too strong, and before you know it:

 

Does it suck to break up? Fuck yeah. But as I was trying to illustrate in my story before, in the long run, it's for the best. Your argument is essentially, "Well, they've been together for a long time, so the only right thing to do is stay together and make each other miserable for the rest of their lives."

[...]

I probably won't be able to listen to the episode until Monday, but it makes me happy to hear that Paul liked it I did like it. It has it's issues, but I thought it was alright. I also totally get why people wouldn't like it, too. I just don't like how people are being so down on Neil - lol.

 

Fair warning, good Sir H: If you really haven't listened yet, and you hate what we've said about Neil here on the boards, then

you're going to hate this episode.

 

Secondly, that's not at all what I'm saying, and all due respect, I don't think your above summary of my claims is accurate or fair. I don't even think there's any real disagreement between us. I mean, you're 100% right -- no one should stay in a crappy relationship situation just because. You seem to think we're at odds on that, but that was never my point. And never really intended for any criticism of these fictional characters to go beyond what happens in the film. I'm not judging you or anyone you know, or anyone, at all, so apologies if I'm going in hard on themes of personal import.

 

If I may, though ... all that hard stuff that you and your family members went through as your relationships ended (which is what we all go through when middle-to-long-term relationships end, regardless of how the end comes ), Jess doesn't go through any of that -- he doesn't really suffer, and he doesn't really hurt, and he doesn't learn and grow and come out on the other side a better person. Meanwhile, the movie doesn't even care what happens to those around him in the wake of his decisions, so he's not even inconvenienced by any real guilt or karmic retribution. Maybe you could make the case that this happens off-screen, but we never see it. It's just all perfect for him and in the end he's a rockstar, and you and I can both agree that that is not how life is.

 

But I do see why you enjoy it and your points are well-made and received. However I might object to the movie's commentary on the themes of love and success, these criticisms are from a narrative and performance perspective. I didn't enjoy the story enough to overlook the flaws or criticize them joyfully. I wanted to gut this movie. I wanted to stalk it, torture it, and leave its carcass on the doormat as a gift to you guys and to make you proud. Sorry if I went over the top ... I honestly thought I was being cute.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Triple, you weren't just being cute, you were being downright adorable!

 

 

I can get super competitive. Sometimes when I get caught up in an argument - and I want to be clear, I was arguing not "fighting" - I can go overboard. Anyway, I realized it later and had just finished updating/editing the post just before I saw your response. lol

 

I was never angry, but I do think I got caught up in the "passion of my prose" (such as it is). It literally was just an exercise in hearing myself speak and the need to "win" a conversation. It's a bad habit. And I'm sorry.

 

Honestly, I super don't give a shit if people make fun of Neil Diamond. I really don't care if people liked or hated this movie. I liked it, but not, like, that much. LOL

[grudlian. 4725]

Can you guys keep arguing if it means more reconciliation cat pictures?

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

[Cameron H. 23786]

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

 

Like Chris Gethard pointed out the Neil Diamond one is so low stakes. He hasn't talked to his dad who has a minor medical problem that prevents him from singing, but he also has the day off from his show so he has nothing but time.

 

...and he's still fucking late. :rolleyes:/>

 

 

And for something completely non-Jewy:

Jess gave Molly an ultimatum: ditch the boyfriend in the boat, don't go to Acapulco with Tommy, go out with me.

But Tommy corrects them and reminds Molly that they're just going to Catalina.

So what happens next - Molly goes out for a romantic day trip with Tommy to Catalina, and then dumps him when they get home that night and starts dating Jess then next day? What did Molly say to Jess - "Okay, I choose you, but starting tomorrow??"

 

Oh, I got the impression that she just said that to protect herself. The last she knew was that Rivka was back in town. She left before the end of the show, so she had no way of knowing that they were going to be getting a seperation. She never actually says she and Tommy are an item, she just lets Jess assume it. And if you look at Diamond's ultra-subtle acting, you can see he's just as surprised by this "Tommy" as anyone. I also wouldn't say he delivered an "ultimatum." He just decides he can't leave without telling her what the situation with Rivka is and how he feels about her. The best he can come up with is "I don't want you going to Acapulco with him." The translation being: "I've fallen in love with you." Her response is to let Tommy expose her lie and let Jess know that they're just friends going for a day trip.

 

To Triple: I totally get where you're coming from now (I hope...). I don't think the problem is that he doesn't experience hardships, but the movie does bend over backwards to never let him be the bad guy. Every time he does something that might be construed as unsavory, there's always seems to be a line or an event that immediately precedes it that is somehow meant to absolve him.

 

Minstrel show? - "This is literally our last chance! We know this is fucked up, but we need a guy and you're our only hope."

You got us all fired? - "That's okay, Jess, because the music is what's important and Billy Idol was completely fucking the song up."

You're falling in love with another woman? - "That's okay, because you never consummated it."

Leaving your wife might be the only way for you to achieve your dreams? - "That's cool, because she wants to leave you."

You're being an asshole in the studio? - "Well, your father just disowned you. We understand."

You're leaving your pregnant wife? - "Had you known, you never would have left."

[tomspanks 9039]

I hear ya Cameron H. You have well thought out points and I'm with you. No one should stay in a loveless marriage.

 

Unless there's a lot of money involved.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I feel like Jason and June seem to be making a lot of observations that completely disregard what’s explicitly stated in the movie. I love ripping apart these movies, but I also feel like you have to be honest about what the movie is trying to convey - even if it’s not being conveyed very well. There’s usually enough to take apart without just making things up. If you misrepresent the text - willfully or not - just to make a point, then I feel like it’s kind of cheating.

 

For example, June says that after one little “stumbling block” he disappears for a year, but I feel like that’s disingenuous and kind of trivializes what his character is going through at that point in the movie. To me, a stumbling block is catching the flu and not being able to perform at an important show or something. However, the “stumbling block” she’s referring to is his father disowning him, the recent dissolution of his marriage, a new relationship that he’s been brought up his entire life to believe is a sin, and his ongoing crisis of Faith. And it’s not like any of this is subtext. This is all explicit in the movie.

 

Another example is when Jason says, “I imagine a world where Rivka stays in LA” and June replies, “Oh, I love that.” But, why? Why would you love it if she stayed in LA? In the scene they’re referring to, he asks her to stay. He tells her they can get away from the synagogue and have a better life, and she refuses. Not because of Molly or because she doesn’t "get" him, but because that’s not who she is. She tells him outright that she loves the synagogue and that’s the life she wants. She tells him that all she’s ever wanted was to be the wife of a Cantor. I get people don’t want Rivka to get hurt, but saying - even as a joke - “I hope she stays in LA” is fundamentally misunderstanding her character. And worse, it's projecting your own ideas of happiness upon her.

 

Whether it’s clear or not, the whole movie is him wrestling with his cognitive dissonance. He wants to be a good and faithful Jew, but he also wants to live his own true life as a rock star. This is why things like the “ham scene” happen. Yes, it’s kind of played for laughs, but more importantly, it’s stating (in perhaps a *ham*fisted way) that even though he’s trying to achieve this new thing, he hasn’t completely abandoned his faith and beliefs. This is the central conflict of the entire film, and if you miss that - respectfully - you’re kind missing the whole point.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

 

Unless there's a lot of money involved.

 

Or the sex is, like, really, really good. (...preferably on a huge pile of money.)