Musical Mondays Pink Floyd's The Wall

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

Yes, the opressive machine of institutionalized schooling. This is supported by the teacher ridiculing Pink’s poetry (I.e. the lyrics to Money from Dark Side. )

p.s. I love that actor's brief contribution to the movie. He chewed the fuck out of that scenery and I applaud him for it.

 

I have some more thoughts that I'll hopefully get to later.

[grudlian. 4725]

To the lady who played the wife I say Boo!!!

 

 

It's the same actress, Margery Mason.

 

Speaking of movie connections, The Wall was directed by the directed by Alan Parker who directed the Musical Monday classic: Bugsy Malone.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

Probable influence for some of this movie's imagery, The Face of Another, a Japanese film from 1966 (which I have never seen), directed by Hiroshi Teshigahara:

 

I've been wanting to see this movie since high school when I thought that anything conceptual in music was, by being conceptual, like, so DEEP MAAAAAAAN (plus I legitimately like Pink Floyd and still love concept albums SO THERE!). After the first couple scenes, I just started to think of this movie as a series of loosely connected music videos, with the same central character, and was able to enjoy it on that level. I found myself very compelled by the animation sequences more than anything, mostly because they are the most visually interesting sections, but also because they are they only times where we didn't have to put up with Pink and his self-obsessed bullshit.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

So, I'm the kind of guy who could watch something like this while listening to Tool and reading Finnegan's Wake and drinking cardinal sin/whiskey cocktails and call that an awesome time. This movie is like smoking cigarettes or getting a tattoo ... even if it hurts, the pain in your soul at least indicates that you can feel.

 

I treat watching this movie like reading Joyce or Melville or Faulkner ... it's not pleasure reading because it requires too much work. Everything is deeply symbolic and difficult to access, and the lack of any real dialogue doesn't help. I kind of think that the dialogue is hard to hear because you aren't supposed to focus on it ... this is a 90-minute rock video, first and foremost. If you know about Floyd/Waters and understand post-WWII England, it helps to decypher the denser moments, but most of the movie requires pretty decent Junior-level symbolic analysis to really get at it.

 

Polly and Cam hit the broad notes but The Wall is so dense, it's possible also to go scene by scene looking for symbolism -- cleaning the gun represents the act of sex, the kids breaking through the barrier represents conception, pulling soldiers out of the muck juxtaposed with Pink thrashing in the hotel pool = birth, and so on ad naseum until the wall comes down ... the whole second half is basically a metaphorical mental breakdown.

 

However, it's been about 10 years since I last sat down to watch it, and I see the problematic things that some of you are pointing out ... he blames most of his problems on his relationship with women instead of recognizing the toxicity of his own self-centered macho ego (FYI - Roger Waters is a total elitist prick, too), he seems to unironically embrace the dictator role, and it's very unclear what becomes of Pink in the end -- does he learn a lesson? or is he dead? We see the wall is destroyed, but the lack of character resolution makes it not totally clear what that means.

 

I love this flick, but I understand the resistance. Sidenote: I dressed up as a spot-fucking-on Dictator Pink for Halloween a few years ago, thinking everyone would recognize it and flip their lids over how cool I was, but everyone just thought I was a weird kind of Nazi. So, yeah ... it's possible that not everyone appreciates it like others do.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

And about the Nazi imagery, in response to Margaret Thatcher and the Conservative Party policies in England during the 1980s, there was a lot of art and music that re-imagined England has a neo-fascist state. There was, of course, a lot of punk music doing that, but there was also the 1984 film starring John Hurt and Richard Burton, and one of my favorite dystopian future narratives evarrrrrr, Alan Moore and David Lloyd's V for Vendetta, which balances the nightmare of a fascist England with being so desperate that you would turn to an insane terrorist for salvation. It's a story that always disturbed me because it makes you want V to be the hero to cheer for, but he's also a monster... but a monster the state he's fighting against created. It's a story with no winners, one where the decent people (like Evey Hammond) are brutalized by all sides of the conflict. GEE I AM SURE GLAD WE HAVE MOVED PAST THAT STUFF, HUH?!

 

And also in The Wall, I think there is a definite theme of "Is this what my daddy died for?" in the country turning to hammer-marching fascism. It renders Pink's, and the nation's, suffering meaningless. If the Nazis took over, but just 40 years later, then what was the whole fucking point? Why did all those people have to die if we're just gonna be nazis anyway? Another theme ON MY MIND as of late.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

I think it's a fantasy.

 

You can basically assume that everything from Comfortably Numb on is complete fantasy. Pink is dead or very nearly so.

That makes NO FUCKING SENSE

 

I mean I kinda get it cause he's in a drug haze in the back of that limo and then suddenly a fuckin skinhead leader, but like they make absolutely no effort to explain any of that for the rest of the movie.

In other words, it's a ....................................................................................... Jacob's Ladder scenario?

And of course The Wall is also about Syd Barrett, one of their original members who went crazy.

 

Pink Floyd: no other famous rock band ever made so much famous music about being a famous rock band.

The "Pink-is-Syd" parallel is tenuous, I think. "Shine On, You Crazy Diamond" is about Syd, pretty clearly, but other than they're both crazy-pants, I'm not sure it works ... Barrett quit the band loooong before they reached the height of their fame.

My issue with that teacher was that Pink wasn't even actually do anything to spark him going over to him other than having an unrecognized notebook on his desk. At least when I was watching it it just appeared that he walked by and unprompted he picked up this notebook and ridiculed this kid who was working quietly. What a fuckin' dick!

I would love to have lived the kind of life that makes "Teachers are sometimes dicks for no obvious reason" a difficult concept to relate to

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Speaking of movie connections, The Wall was directed by the directed by Alan Parker who directed the Musical Monday classic: Bugsy Malone.

He also directed one of my favorites, The Commitments, but I'm not sure it qualifies as a musical. It's about a band, they sing songs but the singing isn't meant to move the plot along.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

Question: Since I watched this with my two-year-old in the room, how much therapy is she looking at?

 

I'll take your estimates in terms of billable hours.

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

Honest question for the people who like Pink Floyd: why?

Okay, good question. Hard to answer, and I certainly cannot speak for everyone. In a lot of ways their popularity doesn't make sense. For one, they didn't really press singles. Sure, there are some radio hits but they only had one number one single -- ever -- and that was "Another Brick in the Wall (Part II)". So that means if you're getting into Pink Floyd, you're listening to their albums. And all of those albums (well, at least those that people recognize) are concept albums.

 

So, from the jump, you need to make a commitment. For me, I think the physical act of playing an album was kind of a prerequisite. Pop in the tape and go. The music -- at least starting from Meddle on -- is at times ambient, theatrical, or anthemic. That can go really badly and sometimes does, but for their peak period it works (at least for me). If it catches, the music will suck you in. In some ways more like Brian Eno or Jean Michel Jarre than any rock music that you'd recognize.

 

As for the Stones -- I get why people like them too (and also do not particularly feel strongly for/against) -- they sing about cool rock n'roll shit like sex and drugs. Zeppelin, too -- probably the closest comparison -- were far more rock n'roll than Pink Floyd. The fact is Pink Floyd made/makes some pretty dorky music. I mean, Nick Hornby made it kind of a running side plot in "High Fidelity". They sing about depression, alienation, fear of dying. Not exactly rock n' roll shit. Their music is unabashedly progressive rock, which is quite possibly the nerdiest type of rock (recognizing that there is something called "nerd rock"). Yeah man, I don't know why it works, but it does.

 

Transitioning away to some of the other stuff that people have touched on in this thread: "Wish You Were Here" is a great ballad but I think a song like "Time" is probably quintessential Floyd. I mean, if you're going to like them...

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

 

Can you please elaborate?

I think I've used up my words for the day, but the short answer is probably

 

Scarfe's animations. They are disturbing as hell but still attractive somehow.

Bob Hoskins' "fuck me", whose delivery I still emulate when I come across something FUBAR

"When the Tigers Broke Free" and "Mother", recorded and re-recorded for the movie (respectively) and contained fragments of an interesting story -- missed opportunity ultimately.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

The fact is Pink Floyd made/makes some pretty dorky music. I mean, Nick Hornby made it kind of a running side plot in "High Fidelity". They sing about depression, alienation, fear of dying. Not exactly rock n' roll shit. Their music is unabashedly progressive rock, which is quite possibly the nerdiest type of rock (recognizing that there is something called "nerd rock").

100%.

 

I am not ashamed to admit that I like the kinds of art that make you want to go home and write essays. It's one of the things that attracts me to this forum. I also like art that deliberately falls beyond the tip of the bell curve ... the stuff that challenges you to like it and makes you think deep, with or without weed. I WANT TO FEEL THE FRAGILITY OF SELF AND EXPLORE THE LIMITLESSNESS OF INNER AND OUTER SPACE ... that's not so bad, right?

 

Scarfe's animations. They are disturbing as hell but still attractive somehow.

Bob Hoskins' "fuck me", whose delivery I still emulate when I come across something FUBAR

"When the Tigers Broke Free" and "Mother", recorded and re-recorded for the movie (respectively) and contained fragments of an interesting story -- missed opportunity ultimately.

I agree with every word of this ... especially missing "Mother." It's my favorite song from The Wall. I would've like to at least seen a shout out, like when the teacher busts Pink with the lyrics to "Money."

 

Edit: Not "Mother" ... "Hey You" is the one I'm missing.

[grudlian. 4725]

So, from the jump, you need to make a commitment. For me, I think the physical act of playing an album was kind of a prerequisite. Pop in the tape and go. The music -- at least starting from Meddle on -- is at times ambient, theatrical, or anthemic. That can go really badly and sometimes does, but for their peak period it works (at least for me). If it catches, the music will suck you in. In some ways more like Brian Eno or Jean Michel Jarre than any rock music that you'd recognize.

 

If someone really wants to make an earnest attempt to get into Pink Floyd, I'd recommend A Saucerful Of Secrets, Meddle, Dark Side Of The Moon and Wish You Were Here. If you can't get into those albums, Pink Floyd isn't for you. You might find bits and pieces on other albums you like, but not much. The early albums are really experimental and often times failed experiments (except Piper At The Gates of Dawn but that's a weird outlier). The later albums are either too wordy at the expense of the music or musical but with diminishing returns.

 

The fact is Pink Floyd made/makes some pretty dorky music. I mean, Nick Hornby made it kind of a running side plot in "High Fidelity". They sing about depression, alienation, fear of dying. Not exactly rock n' roll shit. Their music is unabashedly progressive rock, which is quite possibly the nerdiest type of rock (recognizing that there is something called "nerd rock"). Yeah man, I don't know why it works, but it does.

So far as progressive rock goes, Pink Floyd are probably the least nerdy. Or, the least nerdy notable band the average person has heard of. Most nerdy probably has to go to Rick Wakeman's live performances of King Arthur which was performed as an ice show.

 

I think I've used up my words for the day, but the short answer is probably

 

Scarfe's animations. They are disturbing as hell but still attractive somehow.

Bob Hoskins' "fuck me", whose delivery I still emulate when I come across something FUBAR

"When the Tigers Broke Free" and "Mother", recorded and re-recorded for the movie (respectively) and contained fragments of an interesting story -- missed opportunity ultimately.

The animation is, in my mind, the highlight of the film. I may not necessarily like what it's portraying, but it's well done. And, ugh, the most in your face THEMES!!! were during the animation.

 

In some ways, the movie is better and worse than the album. The album isn't always very clear in what's happening or why it's happening. The movie unfortunately clears up a lot of stuff but I'm not sure I needed to know the judge was a literal talking butthole.

 

I still like the movie overall. The first half is decent if very heavyhanded on the montage since it's basically all montage. It's where the story is clearest. It's where Pink is the most sympathetic. It's where it's ideas are the most universal (or maybe just for English kids born in the 1930s and 40s). But as you said, I think there's an interesting story on children who lost their fathers to the war which lead to overprotective mothers and now suffering through English schools at the time and how that shaped a generation of kids (and maybe most particularly sensitive artistic children). It's the second half and really the fourth side of the album that really falls apart. I'm not sure how much of that is from the time constraints of the album format at the time though.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Found a link with a lot of tidbits about the song "Another Brick in the Wall (Part Two)". Take them with a grain of salt but they sound good. (It's on the Internet so it must be true!)

• 
  Roger Waters wrote this song about his views on formal education, which were framed during his time at the Cambridgeshire School for Boys. He hated his grammar school teachers and felt they were more interested in keeping the kids quiet than teaching them. The wall refers to the wall Waters built around himself because he wasn't in touch with reality. The bricks in the wall were the events in his life which propelled him to build this proverbial wall around him, and his school teacher was another brick in the wall.
  Waters told Mojo, December 2009, that the song is meant to be satirical. He explained: "You couldn't find anybody in the world more pro-education than me. But the education I went through in boys' grammar school in the '50s was very controlling and demanded rebellion. The teachers were weak and therefore easy targets. The song is meant to be a rebellion against errant government, against people who have power over you, who are wrong. Then it absolutely demanded that you rebel against that."
  

• 
  The Disco beat was suggested by their producer, Bob Ezrin, who was a fan of the group Chic. This was completely unexpected from Pink Floyd, who specialized in making records you were supposed to listen to, not dance to. He got the idea for the beat when he was in New York and heard something Nile Rodgers was doing.
  

• 
  Pink Floyd rarely released singles that were also on an album. They felt their songs were best appreciated in the context of an album, where the songs and the artwork came together to form a theme. Producer Bob Ezrin convinced them that this could stand on it's own and would not hurt album sales, and when the band relented and released it as a single, it became their only #1 hit. Two more songs were subsequently released as singles from the album: "Run Like Hell" and "Comfortably Numb."
  

• 
  When they first recorded this song, it was one verse and one chorus, and lasted 1:20. Producer Bob Ezrin wanted it longer, but the band refused. While they were gone, Ezrin made it longer by inserting the kids as the second verse, adding some drum fills, and copying the first chorus to the end. He played it for Waters, who liked what he heard.
  

• 
  This is often paired with "Happiest Days of Our Lives" when played on radio stations, and it follows "Happiest" on the album. "Happiest Days of Our Lives" depicts how childhood was great and there was nothing to worry about, until the teachers came along and tried to oppress and suppress the children. Waters then describes that the teachers must have it rough in their own homes, and take out their frustration on the students. >>
  

• 
  To make this album, they came up with the concept of the character "Pink." Bob Ezrin wrote a script, and they worked the songs around the character. The story was made into the movie The Wall, starring Bob Geldof as "Pink." Many people believe you have to be stoned to enjoy the film.
  

• 
  The line "We don't need no education" is grammatically incorrect. It's a double negative and really means "We need education." This could be a commentary on the quality of the schools.
  

• 
  The teacher character in this song shows up again in Pink Floyd's next album, The Final Cut (1983), notably in the song "The Hero's Return." He is based on the many men who returned from war and entered the teaching profession, as they had no other opportunities.
  

[tomspanks 9039]

He also directed one of my favorites, The Commitments, but I'm not sure it qualifies as a musical. It's about a band, they sing songs but the singing isn't meant to move the plot along.

 

If That Thing You Do got in, surely The Commitments gets in too.

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

So far as progressive rock goes, Pink Floyd are probably the least nerdy. Or, the least nerdy notable band the average person has heard of. Most nerdy probably has to go to Rick Wakeman's live performances of King Arthur which was performed as an ice show.

Well, Yes.

 

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

 

If That Thing You Do got in, surely The Commitments gets in too.

Excellent. If no one takes it before my pick after next I'll do it. I already have my next pick lined up. (It was my alternate for Reefer Madness.)

[grudlian. 4725]

 

If That Thing You Do got in, surely The Commitments gets in too.

Josie And The Pussycats was on my very short list but I didn't feel the second half was enough of a musical.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

Josie And The Pussycats was on my very short list but I didn't feel the second half was enough of a musical.

 

I’m surprised this hasn’t been picked already.

[tomspanks 9039]

Josie And The Pussycats was on my very short list but I didn't feel the second half was enough of a musical.

 

I think it should count.

[SaraK 1980]

 

I think it should count.

 

It for sure counts! I almost picked it actually.

[grudlian. 4725]

It's not my pick but I would love of it were anyone else's. Maybe next round if we go a full round again.

 

Spoiler: the entire thread would be me explaining why it's the best and shutting down all dissenters.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

It's not my pick but I would love of it were anyone else's. Maybe next round if we go a full round again.

 

Spoiler: the entire thread would be me explaining why it's the best and shutting down all dissenters.

That would be awesome! I like The Commitments too!

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

In odd movie connections, Cinema Sins released their "Everything Wrong with It" video today. One scene:

[kateacola 2440]

 

Spoiler: the entire thread would be me explaining why it's the best and shutting down all dissenters.

 

Taylor and I would be right there with you. I love Josie and the Pussycats.

I thought about picking it before too.. but I always have a few picks I want to discuss and both times I made a panic pick, lol.

 

And sorry I haven't been in the discussions much lately. I watched most of The Wall but didn't finish.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

I wanna talk about Josie and the Pussycats so fucking bad