Episode 187 - Beautiful Creatures

[Elektra Boogaloo 3371]

I thought you were gonna be more offended that they called Jeremy Irons the poor man’s Alan Rickman...

I felt it was far IN THIS INSTANCE. Rickman was Snape and Irons was... in this nonsense. So he loses. But of course, no disrespect to my dearly departed Alan Rickman, but he was not Scar in the "Lion King" which is my most vivid association with Mr. Irons (even though he has chosen to be in dreck like this and "Batman vs Superman" in his later years) because I had a hat with his character that said

 

 

that i wore on many a family vacation as a child.

[muttnik 476]

Did anyone else suffer from Emmy Rossum face-blindness? It took me a while to realize that Ridley, the girl in the flashback (where she kills the guy with the train), and the red-eyed girl in the black and purple Sweeney Todd seance dress were all the same people. Then I look up a picture of her IRL and I still don't really recognize her.

 

Sometimes I confuse her with Kat Dennings, but I adore them both so it's a win-win for me either way. I definitely know the Chrises though. If only that were a paying skill.

[FisterRoboto 7499]

Yeah, but that line doesn’t mean he wants to bring back slavery or something.

Oh, believe me, I didn't think that. This movie has zero historical perspective on the Civil War. I was just rolling my eyes for pretty much the whole opening voiceover...and it didn't get much better after that. At least Emma Thompson knew everything she was saying was ridiculous and leaned waaaaay into it. Everything else just did not work for me. I had to rewatch a couple scenes during the last act because I had just totally checked out.

[Jerzy Bondov 6]

For anyone who read the book, is there a bigger part (or frankly any part) for Ethan’s father? My quick Wikipedia research reflects that the father actually had a name and that he was a novelist, like Ethan’s mother. However, given the father’s absence from the movie, I thought that there were a couple of points in the film where they were going to suggest that Uncle Macon was Ethan’s father. Of course, this would make Ethan and Lena first cousins.

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

I felt it was far IN THIS INSTANCE. Rickman was Snape and Irons was... in this nonsense. So he loses. But of course, no disrespect to my dearly departed Alan Rickman, but he was not Scar in the "Lion King" which is my most vivid association with Mr. Irons

As grudlian pointed out earlier, the comparison has to be between Die Hard and Die Hard With a Vengeance. Vengeance isn't bad -- it's probably the best of the sequels -- but it's nowhere near the caliber of Die Hard. And Rickman is arguably the best part of that movie.

 

Also, Jeremy Irons is a

[Cameron H. 23786]

For anyone who read the book, is there a bigger part (or frankly any part) for Ethan’s father? My quick Wikipedia research reflects that the father actually had a name and that he was a novelist, like Ethan’s mother. However, given the father’s absence from the movie, I thought that there were a couple of points in the film where they were going to suggest that Uncle Macon was Ethan’s father. Of course, this would make Ethan and Lena first cousins.

 

I have read the book, but it’s been awhile and I really don’t remember any specifics.

 

Basically, in the movie, after Ethan’s mother died, his father completely checks out. His absence in the movie is intentional. He’s more of a presence than a character. In a lot of ways, Ethan would have been better off had his father died, too. So now, this 16-year-old kid feels saddled with with the responsibility of caring for his father. He wants to leave Gatlin, but he also feels guilty for wanting to leave. Deep down he’s scared that because of his father, he’ll never do the things he wants to do and that he will end up resenting him for it - which makes him feel even more guilty.

 

What I don’t understand is that his friend says he wants to drive by the sanitarium to see his mother (Emma Thompson) before they leave town. This is not only tragic, but it suggests little old Gatlin has a place for people to go who have suffered breakdowns. I wonder why Ethan and Amma never had his father admitted there while he dealt with his grief. It seems weird that they were like, “ Yeah, there’s a place in town specifically made to deal with this kind of thing, but no worries, we got this...”

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

Yeah, but that line doesn’t mean he wants to bring back slavery or something. It means that when people have nothing going on in their lives, and everything seems pointless, they have a tendency to grasp for something - anything - that might give their life purpose.

Cameron, you do the film a lot of justice with this description, but I don't think it deserves it. That explanation works in the context of the scene but why invoke the Civil War in the first place? My interpretation is that the book (assuming that it's from the source material) is recycling the same, tired Lost Cause mythology that you still too often encounter in popular culture. This is a lazy movie! I'm assuming it's a lazily written book, too. The literary references alone -- Kurt Vonnegut, Henry Miller, and William Carlos Williams in the first scene alone -- were endlessly irritating.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Cameron, you do the film a lot of justice with this description, but I don't think it deserves it. That explanation works in the context of the scene but why invoke the Civil War in the first place? My interpretation is that the book (assuming that it's from the source material) is recycling the same, tired Lost Cause mythology that you still too often encounter in popular culture. This is a lazy movie! I'm assuming it's a lazily written book, too. The literary references alone -- Kurt Vonnegut, Henry Miller, and William Carlos Williams in the first scene alone -- were endlessly irritating.

 

First of all, the movie is nothing like the book. There are zero literary references in it. The book is way worse.

 

That line actually is after he’s complained about how the dumb people keep re-enacting the Civil War “like it’s going to turn out different.” He goes on to complain about how slow it is to change, that they have more churches than libraries, and too many banned books. The full quote Fister was referencing is: “I can understand why young men

signed up for the Civil War. Anything is better than a life standing still.”

 

I don’t really want to make any assumptions, but has anyone here ever lived in a truly small town? I haven’t, but I’ve been to my fair share. I’ve met people who’ve joined the military just to get out of their one stoplight town. It’s fucking bleak. The Battle of Honey Hill is literally the only significant thing to ever occur in Gatlin. And since then, as Ethan states, no one has ever really left. I feel like this is just as tragic a start for your protagonist as having him raised in a cupboard under the stairs - except more people can actually relate to it.

 

As far as the “Lost Cause,” I don’t think this is on display here. It’s not Gone With the Wind longing for a glorious past, or even The Searchers where Union soldiers are mocked as being cowardly and ineffectual. Most of the characters, at least the good characters, don’t want anything to do with the Civil War or it’s re-enactments. They want to watch Aliens instead. Most of the places Ethan wants to go are up North.

 

The only reason the Civil War is invoked at all is to provide a metaphor for the internal (Good vs. Evil) and external wars (family strife) that Ethan and Lena are facing.

 

Sorry for any typos. I’m cooking breakfast

[grudlian. 4725]

Also, Jeremy Irons is a

Oh, man. I couldn't even watch this whole thing.

What I don’t understand is that his friend says he wants to drive by the sanitarium to see his mother (Emma Thompson) before they leave town. This is not only tragic, but it suggests little old Gatlin has a place for people to go who have suffered breakdowns. I wonder why Ethan and Anna never had his father admitted there while he dealt with his grief. It seems weird that they were like, “ Yeah, there’s a place in town specifically made to deal with this kind of thing, but no worries, we got this...”

I can come up with some plausible scenarios for this but I don't remember this scene at all (I really checked out once I realised this guy was Han Solo). My understanding of character relationships is also kind of sketchy. For example, is Anna Viola Davis and is she related to Ethan?

 

[RyanSz 3140]

As grudlian pointed out earlier, the comparison has to be between Die Hard and Die Hard With a Vengeance. Vengeance isn't bad -- it's probably the best of the sequels -- but it's nowhere near the caliber of Die Hard. And Rickman is arguably the best part of that movie.

I don't know, for me there pretty evenly matched. Vengeance had a lot better chemistry between Bruce Willis and Samuel L Jackson rather than Willis and the dad from Family Matters. While the original Die Hard had much better gunfights since it was in an enclosed area of Nakatomi Plaza and they couldn't realistically do that in open New York, the tension and suspense was better handled in Vengeance. Although revealing Irons was Rickman's brother was shoehorned and ham fisted.

 

Also, maybe we not have towns not named Gatlin anymore because nothing good ever seems to happen there.

[Jerzy Bondov 6]

Brilliant observation - love it! Although I really want to live in a universe where Uncle Macon had a forbidden affair with Ethan's mother, which begets Ethan. And then Macon lives as an alter-ego non-caster until the mother dies in a car crash (perhaps we can assume caused by Sarafine). At that point, Macon leaves the "shell" alter ego behind to wallow behind a closed door. In this scenario, since Macon appears to have a duality between the light and dark, his dark side has sufficiently crushed or obliterated any emotional connection he may have had to his son.

[grudlian. 4725]

I don't know, for me there pretty evenly matched. Vengeance had a lot better chemistry between Bruce Willis and Samuel L Jackson rather than Willis and the dad from Family Matters. While the original Die Hard had much better gunfights since it was in an enclosed area of Nakatomi Plaza and they couldn't realistically do that in open New York, the tension and suspense was better handled in Vengeance. Although revealing Irons was Rickman's brother was shoehorned and ham fisted.

I like Vengeance quite a bit. It's definitely my favorite of the sequels. You're right about everything and I'll even add the intricacy of Vengeance's plot is pretty great. But it really loses a lot of steam when it gets to the trucks in the tunnels in the final act. So, I always get to that final 20 minutes thinking "this is still going?" even though it's shorter.

 

Die Hard is on another level though. The script is so economical that almost every line leads somewhere and if it doesn't, the line is at least a decent joke. I agree Willis doesn't have the chemistry with Reginald Vel Johnson that he has with Jackson, Willis and Vel Johnson aren't on screen together until the end and when they do properly meet, it is wonderful (admitting of course that Jackson is a waaaay better actor than Vel Johnson so there was never any chance of having equal chemistry). I also think Willis is better in Die Hard. I'm not even sure Willis has another scene in his filmography as well acted as his scene where he gives Vel Johnson a message to give his wife. Vengeance is great but Die Hard is basically perfection.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Oh, man. I couldn't even watch this whole thing.

 

I can come up with some plausible scenarios for this but I don't remember this scene at all (I really checked out once I realised this guy was Han Solo). My understanding of character relationships is also kind of sketchy. For example, is Anna Viola Davis and is she related to Ethan?

 

Yeah, Amma (stupid auto-correct) is Viola Davis. She worked with Ethan's mother at the library and is a family friend. She has been helping out since his mother died since his father isn't really present anymore. You didn't miss any scenes or anything. It is all inferred. She comes over and he tells her his dad hasn't been eating, he tells Lena that his mother died in a car crash, etc.

 

As far as the sanitarium line, it's right at the end as they are about to go tour colleges. His friend is like, “do you mind if we stop by on our way out of town,” suggesting that Sarafine possessing his mother has driven her insane. I'm not trying to say that Ethan's father's breakdown is similar to witch possession, but if there's a local place that can maybe help him out, why not admit him?

[Jerzy Bondov 6]

On the topic of the Ravenwood family's significant land holdings around Gatlin, I like to believe that these include a hog farm. And, in this regard, I believe Uncle Macon would have a line of artisanal pork products, including the best seller -- Macon's Bacon. The tag lines here might be:

• "Macon's Bacon -- cast out ordinary bacon and have a supernatural experience with Macon's Bacon (always nitrite-free)."
  

• "Macon's Bacon -- claim it." or "Macon's Bacon - it will claim you."
  

[grudlian. 4725]

 

Yeah, Amma (stupid auto-correct) is Viola Davis. She worked with Ethan's mother at the library and is a family friend. She has been helping out since his mother died since his father isn't really present anymore. You didn't miss any scenes or anything. It is all inferred. She comes over and he tells her his dad hasn't been eating, he tells Lena that his mother died in a car crash, etc.

 

As far as the sanitarium line, it's right at the end as they are about to go tour colleges. His friend is like do you mind if we stop by on our way out of town, suggesting that Sarafina possessing his mother has driven her insane. I'm not trying to suggest that Ethan's father's breakdown is similar to witch possession, but if there's a local place that can maybe help him out, why not admit him?

Presumably, the real answer is they didn't think anyone would care.

 

Logically, if Ethan has no mother and his father is institutionalized, Ethan would have to almost certainly live with a relative. Since I don't remember any other relatives being mentioned, Ethan would be out of town meaning there's no story. That's getting into "Why don't they just give the one ring to the eagles?" territory though. So, a couple easy ways to fix it in my mind.

 

1. Just give Ethan a relative. Making Viola Davis a relative would be the easiest way. Ethan lives with her and everything continues as it's presented.

 

2. Make Ethan move to Gatlin because his father can't take care of him and Gatlin is where his nearest relative lives. If you're already going to have all this exposition explaining the world of casters to Ethan, it makes way more sense to have him be an outsider. Then you can make the whole town more aware of the central conflict anyway.

 

The outsider orphan thrust into a new magical world is a well worn ground, but I'm fine with it. Especially since this entire movie seems to be indebted to that entire genre and their twist on it is WHAT IF THE CIVIL WAR???? It would ultimately hint toward Ethan being a caster in a future books or sequels but, ehhhh.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Presumably, the real answer is they didn't think anyone would care.

 

Logically, if Ethan has no mother and his father is institutionalized, Ethan would have to almost certainly live with a relative. Since I don't remember any other relatives being mentioned, Ethan would be out of town meaning there's no story. That's getting into "Why don't they just give the one ring to the eagles?" territory though. So, a couple easy ways to fix it in my mind.

 

1. Just give Ethan a relative. Making Viola Davis a relative would be the easiest way. Ethan lives with her and everything continues as it's presented.

 

2. Make Ethan move to Gatlin because his father can't take care of him and Gatlin is where his nearest relative lives. If you're already going to have all this exposition explaining the world of casters to Ethan, it makes way more sense to have him be an outsider. Then you can make the whole town more aware of the central conflict anyway.

 

The outsider orphan thrust into a new magical world is a well worn ground, but I'm fine with it. Especially since this entire movie seems to be indebted to that entire genre and their twist on it is WHAT IF THE CIVIL WAR???? It would ultimately hint toward Ethan being a caster in a future books or sequels but, ehhhh.

 

I mean, I get the literary precedence. I'm not trying to suggest that Beautiful Creatures is breaking new ground or anything. Nor do I think it's trying to.

 

As you said, the movie doesn't make any mention of any other relatives, and if he had relatives, my assumption would be that they would also live in Gatlin, as, according to Ethan, Gatlin is a place for people "too stupid to leave or too stuck to move." So if he doesn't have any other relatives, it's more likely that, if his father could no longer care for him, he would be placed in foster care or that a close friend of the family - not necessarily a relative - would be given guardianship. It's probably a provision in a their Will.

 

And it’s possible that's exactly what's going on. Maybe Amma is his legal guardian, but she is allowing him his independence. My point is, if that’s the case, and there’s help available, why not allow his father get some professional help? We also know his friend is fatherless. So if his friend’s mother has been institutionalized, what's going on with him? What’s he been doing for six months?

 

As far as hinting that "Ethan being a caster," I doubt it. Especially since the movie explicitly shows him unable to touch the books that they say only casters can touch.They also constantly talk about how he's a "mortal" and their relationship is "forbidden." It wouldn't make any sense to then say, "Psych! He's a caster, too!" I think the idea is that a caster, (Macon/the Civil War Caster), fell in forbidden love with a mortal, (his mother/ the Civil War soldier), and that his relationship with Lena is paralleling that. It's a whole Romeo & Juliet thing.

[grudlian. 4725]

 

I mean, I get the literary precedence. I'm not trying to suggest that Beautiful Creatures is breaking new ground or anything. Nor do I think it's trying to.

 

As you said, the movie doesn't make any mention of any other relatives, and if he had relatives, my assumption would be that they would also live in Gatlin, as, according to Ethan, Gatlin is a place for people "too stupid to leave or too stuck to move." So if he doesn't have any other relatives, it's more likely that if his father could no longer care for him he would be placed in foster care or that a close friend of the family - not necessarily a relative - would be given guardianship. It's probably in a their Will.

 

It's actually possible that's what's going on. Amma is his legal guardian, but she is allowing himself his independence. My point is, why not allow his father get some professional help - if it's available. We also know his friend is fatherless. So if his mother has been institutionalized, what's going on with him?

 

As far as hinting that "Ethan being a caster," I doubt it. Especially since the movie explicitly shows him unable to touch the books that they say only casters can touch.The also constantly talk about how he's a "mortal" and their relationship is "forbidden." It wouldn't make any sense to then say, "Psych! He's a caster, too!" I think the idea is that a caster, his mother, fell in forbidden love with a mortal, his father, and that his relationship with Lena is paralleling that. It's a whole Romeo & Juliet thing.

I definitely hear you with all this. Beautiful Creatures isn't doing anything new. That's kind of why I think having so much exposition is a waste because we've all seen it before.

 

I wasnt suggesting this movie hints Ethan is a caster. He definitely isn't In this. In my suggestions to to improve treating Ethan's father, it might unintentionally hint he's a caster by being an outsider who finds himself in a magical city because that's how those stories typically progress.

 

I'm curious how this differed from the book. Since Taylor Anne and you read it and you implied it's pretty different, what's the fundamental deal with the book?

[chaplinatemyshoe 46]

Alden Ehrenreich is like a slightly less uninteresting Dane DeHaan.

 

 

He was genuinely great in Hail, Caesar! and pretty good in Stoker and Blue Jasmine. I mean, if anyone wants to know why comedic directors would cast him as a young Han Solo, they need to see him in Hail, Caesar!

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

I definitely hear you with all this. Beautiful Creatures isn't doing anything new. That's kind of why I think having so much exposition is a waste because we've all seen it before.

 

I wasnt suggesting this movie hints Ethan is a caster. He definitely isn't In this. In my suggestions to to improve treating Ethan's father, it might unintentionally hint he's a caster by being an outsider who finds himself in a magical city because that's how those stories typically progress.

 

I'm curious how this differed from the book. Since Taylor Anne and you read it and you implied it's pretty different, what's the fundamental deal with the book?

 

I don’t remember much, but I seem to recall it being reverse gendered Twilight. He’s the narrator and he just kind of obsessively pines over her while she treats him like garbage. Anything unique in this re-telling in the teen paranormal romance genre (e.g. their appreciation for literature) is not present in the books.

 

I will say that I was (ironically) amused enough by it that I tried to read the sequel, but I bailed on it about a third of the way through. They are not well-written. This is better.

[chaplinatemyshoe 46]

Nothing makes me feel quite as old as hearing people call Jeremy Irons a poor man's Rickman. Irons was arguably the best actor working for a stretch in the late 80s/early 90s before he burnt out.

[Blast Hardcheese 636]

Jeremy Irons is as good an actor as Alan Rickman (arguably better) but I think it's apt. Rickman is in Harry Potter (right? I've never seen them) and Irons is in this or Dungeons & Dragons. Rickman was in Die Hard and Irons was in Die Hard with a Vengeance.

 

As Hans Gruber's younger brother, Simon, no less. So yeah: forever in the shadow of greatness.

[grudlian. 4725]

I will say that I was (ironically) amused enough by it that I tried to read the sequel, but I bailed on it about a third of the way through. They are not well-written. This is better.

Oof. That is a very damning review of the book.

[gigi-tastic 2322]

On the topic of the Ravenwood family's significant land holdings around Gatlin, I like to believe that these include a hog farm. And, in this regard, I believe Uncle Macon would have a line of artisanal pork products, including the best seller -- Macon's Bacon. The tag lines here might be:

• "Macon's Bacon -- cast out ordinary bacon and have a supernatural experience with Macon's Bacon (always nitrite-free)."
  

• "Macon's Bacon -- claim it." or "Macon's Bacon - it will claim you."
  

 

I'm dying to know what other products the Rvenwood family hawks like the Bluth's frozen bananas and their defective Corn Baller. Since they are in Georgia I'm assuming they have to have their hands in the pecan industry to go along with some candied bacon for a Sinfully Sweet treat . A local bbq restaurant did chocolate covered bacon for a while. So i like to think Macon's Bacon's would also carry that. In both dark and white so you don't need to fight inner self ! (though why anyone would want white chocolate on bacon I don't know but... why you would want to eat chocolate covered bacon is a mystery to me as well so *shrugs*

[gigi-tastic 2322]

Ok so at the start of the movie Ethan's friend mention's his dad recently died as well right? He says his mom is even worse now that is dad is dead. Did his dad die at the same time as Ethan's mom? Is it not weird that they are both dead in what sounds like a relatively short period of each other? My mom died when I was 21 (14 months after one of her younger brother's on top of it all. my poor grandmother) and it was a big deal because I was the first person my age/ group of friends to lose a parent. If I was a teen living in a small town and both I AND my bet friend lost one of our parents randomly around the same time wouldn't that be weird? Like did they die together?

[FisterRoboto 7499]

 

 

He was genuinely great in Hail, Caesar! and pretty good in Stoker and Blue Jasmine. I mean, if anyone wants to know why comedic directors would cast him as a young Han Solo, they need to see him in Hail, Caesar!

He's good in that one scene, but it's still not worth sitting through that whole movie for. Blergh. But, yeah, I was mostly referring to him in this movie. Like, this feels like a Dane DeHaan role, but Ehrenreich has more charisma than Dane DeHaan, who is the least interesting person on the planet.