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2 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

That's why I tried to add the qualifier of "many cases." Of course I can't speak for everyone.

But reading that back it does sound a bit presumptuous, so I apologize for that. I'm just trying to work out why this movie isn't doing it for me.

To add to the above, I think that's how the movie comes across to me, like it's just getting at the idea of having a strong woman hero (with montages and iconography and stuff) and not actually giving us the full character. I really wanted more of those smaller character moments to help flesh her out.

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Just now, sycasey 2.0 said:

To add to the above, I think that's how the movie comes across to me, like it's just getting at the idea of having a strong woman hero (with montages and iconography and stuff) and not actually giving us the full character. I really wanted more of those smaller character moments to help flesh her out.

I will admit that I do feel like they were relying on "HEY LOOK A WOMAN!!!" to get them through a lot which is why I can't give them a perfect score for this at all, especially when Marvel is literally only doing this because of Wonder Woman's success and not for any of their own merit. I mean we're just now getting a Black Widow movie when we all would've been better served with one in 2011 after her introduction in 2010 with Iron Man 2.

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4 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I will admit that I do feel like they were relying on "HEY LOOK A WOMAN!!!" to get them through a lot which is why I can't give them a perfect score for this at all, especially when Marvel is literally only doing this because of Wonder Woman's success and not for any of their own merit. I mean we're just now getting a Black Widow movie when we all would've been better served with one in 2011 after her introduction in 2010 with Iron Man 2.

I think there were contractual issues that had to be ironed out re: Scarlett Johansson actually headlining a movie as Black Widow (you'd have to pay her more if she's the lead in one movie versus being a key supporting character across several movies). On some level that makes sense and on another level it seems like a lame cop-out when the MCU is raking in gobs of cash anyway, even for movies with talking raccoons and stuff. Just pay her; you'll make that money back and then some.

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1 minute ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

I think there were contractual issues that had to be ironed out re: Scarlett Johansson actually headlining a movie as Black Widow (you'd have to pay her more if she's the lead in one movie versus being a key supporting character across several movies). On some level that makes sense and on another level it seems like a lame cop-out when the MCU is raking in gobs of cash anyway, even for movies with talking raccoons and stuff. Just pay her; you'll make that money back and then some.

It literally reeks of a giant cop-out. They had NO idea any of those men were headlining (literally no one had even heard of Chris Hemsworth or Tom Hiddleston in America before Thor premiered), and while RDJ was a known name he still had so much tied to him from his past that this was a huge gamble to start an entire franchise on his back. One wrong move and they would've lost everything. At least with Scarlett she already had a reputable name and many many great movies under her belt by that time and was maybe the only one out of any of those in the original six you could've banked at the time to lead her own movie of that scale. Plus after we've seen that DC can literally just throw Wonder Woman into a handful of scenes in a terrible movie like BvS and then knock it out of the park with her own solo movie then there's literally noooo argument that Marvel can throw out that holds any weight.

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6 hours ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Captain America is much better as a pure character introduction, IMO. They nail the character's ethos and give him a real human backstory that you can feel. I think this one gets the "ethos" okay, but the human character remains muddy. I would say this is similar to Thor in that respect, but also IMO they didn't really nail that character until Ragnarok.

I also think Guardians of the Galaxy is an amazing introduction to a whole host of characters. I think this has actually been Marvel's strength throughout their current run (doing good introductions to the primary characters), which is why I found this one disappointing. I'm not disappointed that it did well at the box office, but I am disappointed that I didn't "feel" it like the other ones . . . and believe me, I wanted to.

I loved the first Captain America (and you seemed to as well) but "Thor" was actually better received--and made more money--than that one. What made me compare it to Thor and Cap is that there is a definite split. Like how Cap is small Steve and then big Steve, or how Thor is on Asgard and then Earth, "Captain Marvel" does have a disjointed feel. Though I understand why they didn't want to do a straight origin story because her origin story is effing complicated in the comics. They WAY simplified it.

I think they also wanted to do something like Memento or with a more interesting structure. But it's difficult to advertise it as "Captain Marvel" when she is only Captain marvel for like 20 minutes. And they never actually call her that.

There was a little kid next to me when I first saw it and he was SO confused. He kept saying "Why is Captain Marvel [doing X]..." and the dad couldn't answer. The proper response was probably "she's not Captain Marvel yet." But try explaining that to a kid. You know?

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33 minutes ago, Elektra Boogaloo said:

I loved the first Captain America (and you seemed to as well) but "Thor" was actually better received--and made more money--than that one.

I think that first Cap movie keeps improving the more you go back to it. I didn't love it right away, but every time I go back I gain appreciation (plus IMO that one has the most heartfelt and believable love story in the MCU, which I put down to Hayley Atwell being terrific all the time). I also have a very anecdotal sense that most people remember that one more fondly than Thor these days, even if the latter made more money at the time (I think Cap wasn't advertised too well for overseas markets).

But yeah, in both movies they give you a sense of how the lead character was "originally" and then change up their circumstances (Steve goes from scrawny to strong, Thor goes from Asgard to Earth) to show how they learn to be a hero. Captain Marvel seems to be trying something different, but the structure of the story seems disjointed to me. Memento has that structure because it's building to a thematic point about how the biggest lies we tell are to ourselves. A complicated and twisty structure seems to fit that kind of theme. A Marvel movie like this is usually just trying to deliver a more straightforward message about "be a hero!" or "appreciate your friends!" . . . which can be great, but I don't know that being mysterious about it actually helps deliver that kind of message. For me, I think the overt "Girl Power!" message of the movie would have landed more strongly if I'd just seen a linear progression of Carol being overprotected as a young girl, then doubted as an Air Force recruit because of her sex, then gaining super powers but held back by an alien who claims to be helping her, to breaking out of all of that and becoming the powerful being she always could have been.

But doing it that way maybe doesn't give them the chance to put Young Nick Fury in long stretches of the movie or have more appearances from the alien bad guys in Guardians and so forth. I suspect some of the needs of the larger Marvel machine got in the way here.

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19 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

I will admit that I do feel like they were relying on "HEY LOOK A WOMAN!!!" to get them through a lot which is why I can't give them a perfect score for this at all, especially when Marvel is literally only doing this because of Wonder Woman's success and not for any of their own merit. I mean we're just now getting a Black Widow movie when we all would've been better served with one in 2011 after her introduction in 2010 with Iron Man 2.

Wasn't that when Ike Permulter was being cheap with the pocketbook? I remember Mickey Rourke, coming off of The Wrestler, being offered scale and Terrance Howard wanting more money so they replaced him.

Not to excuse that behavior or the lack of a BW movie. Personally I would have put it after The Avengers as part of Phase 3 or whatever, people really wanted that Black Widow movie that explained the relationship between her and Clint. That was a Marvel "misstep" (in that they were focused on their plans and phases and, in my opinion, not listening to the fans and what they wanted).

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20 minutes ago, EvRobert said:

Wasn't that when Ike Permulter was being cheap with the pocketbook? I remember Mickey Rourke, coming off of The Wrestler, being offered scale and Terrance Howard wanting more money so they replaced him.

Not to excuse that behavior or the lack of a BW movie. Personally I would have put it after The Avengers as part of Phase 3 or whatever, people really wanted that Black Widow movie that explained the relationship between her and Clint. That was a Marvel "misstep" (in that they were focused on their plans and phases and, in my opinion, not listening to the fans and what they wanted).

I can't comment on the details tbh, but I do remember them being like lol no Terrence Howard.

A post-Avengers prequel movie set in Budapest with Black Widow and Hawkeye would have literally been the PERFECT opportunity to set those two characters up for something solo down the line, and with the amount of fanfic I read about said setting I am deep into the Clintasha ship hole lmao.

Also, doing that could have possibly set up an amazing Matt Fraction written Netflix mini-series about Clint recovering from the brainwashing in his apartment in Brooklyn and then having to fight the Russian mafia because he's a good person at heart that refuses to see them fuck over everyone that lives in his building. (Can you tell I'm ignoring that dumb family Whedon pointlessly threw in lol.)

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50 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I can't comment on the details tbh, but I do remember them being like lol no Terrence Howard.

A post-Avengers prequel movie set in Budapest with Black Widow and Hawkeye would have literally been the PERFECT opportunity to set those two characters up for something solo down the line, and with the amount of fanfic I read about said setting I am deep into the Clintasha ship hole lmao.

Also, doing that could have possibly set up an amazing Matt Fraction written Netflix mini-series about Clint recovering from the brainwashing in his apartment in Brooklyn and then having to fight the Russian mafia because he's a good person at heart that refuses to see them fuck over everyone that lives in his building. (Can you tell I'm ignoring that dumb family Whedon pointlessly threw in lol.)

Matt Fraction's run was so good. I heard about Sex Criminals on the I Sell Comics podcast and then sought out Fractions run after reading it. Just a great book that should have been the tie in to the Netflix world and the MCU

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5 minutes ago, EvRobert said:

Matt Fraction's run was so good. I heard about Sex Criminals on the I Sell Comics podcast and then sought out Fractions run after reading it. Just a great book that should have been the tie in to the Netflix world and the MCU

I was the opposite! I came to Sex Criminals via my love for his Hawkeye run! Also I have to thank him for then introducing me to his wife Kelly Sue DeConnick who wrote Captain Marvel's run at the same time which is what made me fall in love with her and was the big basis for this movie! You can even see Kelly Sue in the subway scene when Carol gets off the train and walks by a lot of people that are like, "Uhhh," and there's this woman with a flash of bright cherry red hair and I remember thinking, "Goodness that looks like Kelly Su- HOLY SHIT THAT'S KELLY SUE!"

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1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

(Can you tell I'm ignoring that dumb family Whedon pointlessly threw in lol.)

My thought is if they'd done a movie focusing on Black Widow and Hawkeye, then Whedon wouldn't have felt the need to add extra scenes in Age of Ultron to flesh them out. It might have also helped that movie become more streamlined.

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