FisterRoboto

I keep saying "The movie doesn't show him being supportive of her" and you keep saying "Show me when he's not supportive." It's literally impossible to give you a quote from the movie or cite a scene that doesn't exist. The proof, in this case, is the LACK of evidence to the contrary. But you keep setting up a criteria to change your mind that doesn't exist and pretending like I'm just pulling it out of my ass while condescendingly telling me to cite the part of the movie where the thing doesn't happen. As to her support, I could point to her supporting his idea for the jazz club, drawing the logo for that club, being at every show we see, dancing along with music she has said she doesn't really like, or even encouraging him to open the club instead of playing in a band he hates. And that's just off the top of my head. Most of the first two acts of this movie are her encouraging and supporting him.

Yes, and I don't agree with most of those examples showing him being all that supportive (as evidenced by the fact that I said as much to each of them). My point is that we SEE Mia be there for him repeatedly. But we don't SEE him there for her in the same way. That's the whole point. There are no examples to give because he's just.....not there. Which was in response to you using the scene to show that it was a selfless task he was doing.

It's only Wednesday, man. We've got some time Now, where do we get two more LLLs to keep this going? (PS - I <3 that thread)

I don't see her as passive aggressive at all. I see her as saying, "You've been complaining the WHOLE TIME I've known you about doing this. Are you sure this is what you want to do forever?" Maybe it's just "tough love" How so? I said she's not a priority. This could be because most of the time, we're seeing his rise (Mia's career really takes the back seat until the third act). But, yes, he's supporting her financially...because she's doing the thing he told her to do! And I also think you are totally underplaying how big of a deal him missing her show was. It's literally THE THING she's been working towards for the bulk of the movie. He's too caught up in his own shit to even make it. We don't SEE him be there for her the way that she is for him every single step of the way in his career. It's not that he misses a bunch of performances or something; it's that we literally don't see him being the kind of support that she is. I guess you and I see that scene very differently. I don't really think berating people has anything to do with "love." And I also didn't claim this scene was him being selfish. But it is definitely him being an asshole. I don't think anyone has said she's not self-absorbed, but you seem to take exception to us pointing out all the shitty things Seb does in the movie, which is (again) by and large a byproduct of him being the focal point of most of the film. And I don't know what you're looking for when you tell me to give you "specific scenes/examples" when my whole point is that those scenes don't exist. I'm fine accepting that Mia is selfish, but painting Seb as some kind of hero that's up on a cross for Mia's success is a really wild read on that character.

To be fair, that's largely because (as Taylor has pointed out a bunch), Seb is the one with a more fully fleshed-out character. Most of the movie is from his perspective and about him. So, like, I get it that Mia might not be the best, but a lot of that is us having to fill in the blanks about her because we're given almost nothing.

I don't see her response as petty at all. She asks him when he's going to be home, and he says that they tour to afford another album and then record another album so they can tour. And that's when she says, "So you're in it for the long haul?" She's asking if this is something he's willing to commit to because for the whole rest of the movie, he's been complaining about how he doesn't want to do it. The only person I see being petty in this convo is Seb when he tells her she only liked him when he was failing because it made her feel better about herself. Which is just a shitty thing to say solely to hurt another person. He constantly condescends and infantilizes her. It's not just that he missed her show; it's that she's clearly not the priority to her because he's too busy being a sad sack about having to play poppy jazz to be there for her. But we see her there for him every single step of the way. Sure, he shows up....so that he can berate her and call her a baby. What a charming, charming selfless man. Like, I get it that maybe he's not the absolute villain, but he's so incredibly self-absorbed and self-righteous that everything is about him until the very end. But because he FINALLY shows up for a thing and then lets her go in the end, yay for him! What a swell, swell guy.

Maybe he thinks loving her forever is the same as royalties.

What would have happened if Mia's aunt had lived in, like, Greece or something?

Yeah, but he's not like, "Hey, when your show is over, wanna join me on the tour for a bit?" He's asking her to abandon the thing that she's working on (and that he told her to make) to come be with him. I don't see that as very supportive.

It's almost like he's super selfish and not really a supportive partner or something...

Wtf are you trying to say about Cobra? Anyway, yeah, I think you're right. But it's not limited just to this thing. It's the whole American Dream angle. Without going too much into an anti-capitalism tangent, it's the idea we hear repeated over and over and over again that if you just work hard, you can make it! Never mind that - whether it's being an actress or a playwright or a musician or a copywriter or a developer or a designer - it's often more about who you know mixed with a large amount of dumb luck. (and the end of the movie proves that) Like, I get that he's trying to encourage her creatively, and that's cool. But it definitely is silly for either of them to pin of their hopes for her career on this one thing.

Man, now I really wish we had THIS movie. I know you said Michael B Jordan earlier, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Wyatt Cenac playing Seb. Have you ever seen Medicine for Melancholy? I imagine a Seb that's very similar to that character. Instead of being upset about the jazz club being turned into a "samba and tapas bar," it would be about gentrification. Like, every single thing the movie is doing with Seb's character would work so much better.

Sorry, too many "hes" again. I meant that having White Keith whitesplain jazz to Black Seb changes that dynamic and makes Keith the asshole. But when it's JL and Gosling, Gosling comes off looking like the asshole.

A few things about that: 1. I would have believed Ryan Gosling as a "Keith" more than John Legend. 2. It would have actually made Keith more of a "villain" if he was whitesplaining how jazz needs to progress to a black character. 3. I'd totally be into it.

Yeah, I totally get it. I just disagree, but I totally didn't want you to think I was saying your point wasn't made in good faith or anything. Good thing, because we do frequently disagree, but I think we manage to do so amicably, like, 90% of the time Anyway, I think the issue here is that you and I disagree on what constitutes a success story. I don't think a success story necessarily has to end in super happy feelings. They don't have to high-five and do synchronized cartwheels out of the jazz club (although that would be fun as hell to watch). If there is any regret there about what could have been, it's sort of a "this is the price I paid for getting where I am." And I still think she's successful in pretty much every way. Sure, we don't see much of her life post-stardom, so we don't know FOR SURE if she's happy, but we also don't see anything that really suggests that she isn't. So it's by and large left up to the viewer to decide. For me, she seems happy and successful at the end, and the final club scene is her acknowledging what she had to "give up" (sort of?) to obtain her success. I'd generally say that achieving your goals is tantamount to success. That doesn't mean everything is hunky dory all the time in your life. And I could buy that maybe she still has feelings for Seb, but I also don't think those feelings diminish her success. So I guess what I'm trying to say (in a very circuitous fashion) is that whether or not it's a success story depends on how you define success. And for me, it totally works as the story of Mia's success.

I have more to say in response, Cameron, but I'm on my phone and don't want to type it all out, so that'll have to wait. But I definitely want to say that I was in no way accusing you of being disingenuous. My point was that focusing on one moment ignores the context of everything we're shown before that moment.

You could just as easily take a random frame of her face from the previous few minutes of the movie where it's showing her life and make the opposite point. I don't get why any of that has anything to do with whether or not she has found success or fulfillment. It doesn't matter who the guy is; she's moved on and is enjoying her life. We don't see much of their relationship because it doesn't matter. What matters is that she's in a different place in her life and has a new family. You can still love someone and realize that being together isn't the best thing for you. That doesn't mean your life isn't fulfilled because you can't be with that one person. Even if you buy that Mia is sad or regretful when she sees Seb, it doesn't mean you aren't sometimes wistful when you think about what might have been (even though you know that that "what might have been" is a lie). Her whole happiness doesn't rest with Seb.

I watched Main Hoon Na over Memorial Day weekend with some friends, and if you had fun with Om Shanti Om, I highly recommend it. It's on Netflix and is a really fun, silly action/spy movie. It has SRK and it's from the same director! It's Farah Khan's first movie.

You know how sometimes you try to woo a woman but it turns out she's secretly married and then her husband burns her alive and you try to save her but end up dying right at the same moment a baby is born to a superstar couple and 30 years later set out to avenge both of your deaths? Yeah, that's only the FIRST FUCKING ACT of: I hope a lot of you decided to watch it because man, it was a blast! I'll have more to say later, but I just wanted to start this thread off the right way...with probably my favorite shot in the whole movie:

Mia seems very fulfilled at the end of the movie. I don't think her not ending up with Seb detracts from that. Seb is probably less so because he didn't end up with Mia, and that's what I keep circling back to with the dream ballet being his fantasy and not hers. He thinks about what life with Mia would have been like, but she seemingly has a pretty great life without him. Seb becomes a rather popular musician while Mia is still struggling. I think the main difference as far as success goes is that Cathy never finds success and is bitter about it, while Mia obviously does and is more hurt by the lack of support she gets from her partner (she obviously never gets her version of "The Schmuel Song"). There are other things that are way different in terms of their relationship , but the way the TLFY portrays the Cathy's struggle to become an actress works so much better. I like the montage of Mia reading (badly) for the various roles, but I think "Climbing Uphill" does the same thing but better. There are obviously structural things about the two movies where it doesn't make sense to compare them as a straight 1:1, but in terms of both movies' exploration of career success, I think you can draw a pretty strong connection. It's just that the characters end up in different places by the end (or...beginning?). I see Cathy and Mia as almost alternate universe versions of each other.

I can't tell if you're messing with me or not, but the movie is definitely about Mia finding success

I mean...I did! Not liking Seb doesn't mean I don't like the movie (it just means I see the movie more as Mia's success story more than Seb's) There's something I've been debating whether or not to bring up because it involves a movie I'm about 80% might be my next pick. But that's months away, so maybe it doesn't matter. Anyway, have any of y'all seen The Last Five Years? I think it might have something to do with my enthusiasm being less than it was when I first saw it. There's so much in The Last Five Years that's analogous to this movie, but that movie does it so much better (and I'd guess the stage version did it even better than that). I mean, the two movies aren't really the same, but they deal with a lot of the same themes around success.