EPISODE 600 - Pro-Wrestling

[JulyDiaz 2797]

The delightful John Butler & Andrew talk about whether pro-wrestling is racist or not. Make sure to leave us a message about anything you think is racist at (323) 389-RACE.

[Joe Lerini 7329]

A couple of things I want to say, yes, there is a contingent of self-aware wrestling fans that don't just boo the foreigner heels and cheer the white babyfaces. These people are also perfectly willing to make fun of the ridiculous aspects of pro wrestling, but still get excited about the aspects of it that are entertaining.

 

Regarding openly gay wrestlers, I've got a bit of bad news for you, as Goldust has long moved past the homoerotic persona he adopted in the mid-90s. He still wears gold facepaint and a gold bodysuit, but over time he's been revealed to have a wife, gotten divorced (both in wrestling and in real life) and morphed into just a talented, weird middle-aged guy who wrestles alongside his younger brother, Stardust, who also wears facepaint and happens to talk like Jim Carrey as the Riddler most of the time.

 

However, Pat Patterson, who wrestled in the 70s and 80s and had a backstage role in the 90s and 2000s, has come out as gay. And Darren Young came out a year or two ago, and he's an active member of the WWE roster. And, unlike Goldust in the 90s, Darren Young wrestles his matches without flirting with his opponents or being portrayed as a heel.

[wakefresh 689]

Wrestling is very racist. It's a form of entertainment that was originally created for backwoods white folks and backwoods white folks were the ones who ran/run it today. Jim McMahon's father ran the original incarnation of the WWF and it was a damn near lily white organization.

 

But not only that, but the roots of wrestling is even weirdly racist toward white people. Hulk Hogan is named so because the organization he worked for wanted an Irish heel, so they named him "Hogan". I don't think Terry Bolea is Irish, but it doesn't matter because he has white skin, so he can any white ethnicity. Ric Flair is another wrestler whose origin was rooted in this sort of pitting white ethnicities against each other.

 

And don't even talk about gay or POC wrestlers. They are always the villain. The Rock and Ricky "the Dragon" Steamboat are notable exceptions. But the time span between the two was more than 20 years.

 

So, in short, wrestling is a white working class form of entertainment and like the white working class of this country is incredibly hostile to anyone who is not a white male.

[Joe Lerini 7329]

No disrespect intended, Shariq, but the list of heroic POC wrestlers includes far more than simply The Rock and Ricky Steamboat. There's former WWE World champions Pedro Morales, Rey Mysterio Jr., and Eddie Guerrero. Eddie, as a matter of fact, in 2005 was entered into a feud with an anti-immigration white texan, John Bradshaw Layfield, who was portrayed as the villain. If we include the NWA/WCW, which at one point was equal in popularity to WWE, then the list includes former World Champions Bobo Brazil, Ron Simmons, and Booker T. That's not to mention popular wrestlers who have never held a world title, such as Junkyard Dog, Rocky Johnson (The Rock's father), Peter Maivia (The Rock's maternal grandfather), and Rikishi, among others.

 

Having said all of that, I do still have to agree that, by and large, the WWE still has its racist leanings. The current main event tier of WWE's roster consists almost exclusively of caucasians (exceptions include The Rock on the rare occasion he makes an appearance and Roman Reigns, who is set to face Brock Lesnar in the main event of WrestleMania this coming Sunday). And the midcard and undercard POC wrestlers are oftentimes written in a stereotypical fashion. And recently a former World champion, Alberto Del Rio, was fired for slapping a WWE employee who did not apologize after making a racist comment about him.

 

However, Alberto Del Rio has since gone on to become a beloved wrestler in other organizations. Which brings me to my next point: while professional wrestling's roots are tied to backwoods white folks, the concept has branched out to other parts of the globe. CMLL and AAA are two of the biggest companies in Mexico, and New Japan Pro Wrestling, Pro Wrestling NOAH, and DragonGate are major promotions in Japan.

 

So, to make a long, possibly uninteresting story short, WWE still has a long way to go on this subject, even though they brand themselves as a worldwide entertainment platform. But, if this is a yes or no scenario, then I do have to say that yeah, they are racist. However, there are alternative pro wrestling organizations out there. So I don't think Pro Wrestling, as a concept, is racist.

[wakefresh 689]

No disrespect intended, Shariq, but the list of heroic POC wrestlers includes far more than simply The Rock and Ricky Steamboat. There's former WWE World champions Pedro Morales, Rey Mysterio Jr., and Eddie Guerrero. Eddie, as a matter of fact, in 2005 was entered into a feud with an anti-immigration white texan, John Bradshaw Layfield, who was portrayed as the villain. If we include the NWA/WCW, which at one point was equal in popularity to WWE, then the list includes former World Champions Bobo Brazil, Ron Simmons, and Booker T. That's not to mention popular wrestlers who have never held a world title, such as Junkyard Dog, Rocky Johnson (The Rock's father), Peter Maivia (The Rock's maternal grandfather), and Rikishi, among others.

 

Having said all of that, I do still have to agree that, by and large, the WWE still has its racist leanings. The current main event tier of WWE's roster consists almost exclusively of caucasians (exceptions include The Rock on the rare occasion he makes an appearance and Roman Reigns, who is set to face Brock Lesnar in the main event of WrestleMania this coming Sunday). And the midcard and undercard POC wrestlers are oftentimes written in a stereotypical fashion. And recently a former World champion, Alberto Del Rio, was fired for slapping a WWE employee who did not apologize after making a racist comment about him.

 

However, Alberto Del Rio has since gone on to become a beloved wrestler in other organizations. Which brings me to my next point: while professional wrestling's roots are tied to backwoods white folks, the concept has branched out to other parts of the globe. CMLL and AAA are two of the biggest companies in Mexico, and New Japan Pro Wrestling, Pro Wrestling NOAH, and DragonGate are major promotions in Japan.

 

So, to make a long, possibly uninteresting story short, WWE still has a long way to go on this subject, even though they brand themselves as a worldwide entertainment platform. But, if this is a yes or no scenario, then I do have to say that yeah, they are racist. However, there are alternative pro wrestling organizations out there. So I don't think Pro Wrestling, as a concept, is racist.

 

I think you're cherry picking here. In wrestling, the champion is the big draw and the one who the company wants to promote heavily. Rey Mysterio is no more closer than becoming the WWF champion than I am. I put the The Dragon in there because he did hold the WCW championship for a bit and it passed between him, Dusty Rhodes and Ric Flair. The Rock was like the third POC champion in WWF's history and that was just this last decade. They have been around since the 1950s.

 

Far more of the POC are villians. Ron Simmons was once Farooq who was the head of the villianous Nation of Domination Black Power-esque group in WWF. Virgil was basically the Million Dollar Man's slave. Rikishi was a popular wrestler but he was stereotype and played the heel in alot of his matches. I wasn't around for Rocky Johnson or Peter Mavia's runs, so I can't really speak to that. What I do know is that out of all of the examples you gave, Booker T may be the only babyface on the list and is of less than a handful of POCs who have won the championship (and by extension, the approval of the owners for promotion). Remember, the WCW and WWF are organizations that have been around since atleast the 1950s. I read that Booker T was the first African American to win the championship and that was just this last decade.

 

And other countries have their wrestling organizations, that is true, and those wrestling organizations represent their own countries neurosis and bigotry. Mexican wrestling is very, very old and also very, very homophobic. The gay wrestlers were pink masks and are almost always the villain. I'm sure there are a handful of gay wrestlers who are the babyfaces but they are far in between, just like the POC babyfaces in the U.S.

 

Pro Wrestling is a form of entertainment and it follows the same rules as the rest of a nation's entertainment. If you are in a country that does not have representation of minority groups in other forms, it will follow the Pro Wrestling will be as well. Even more so, because these characters are engaged in physical combat. If your TV and movie and books tell you that blacks are inferior, then you're not going to spend good money to see a black person physically beat a white person (even if it is fake).

[Joe Lerini 7329]

 

I think you're cherry picking here. In wrestling, the champion is the big draw and the one who the company wants to promote heavily. Rey Mysterio is no more closer than becoming the WWF champion than I am. I put the The Dragon in there because he did hold the WCW championship for a bit and it passed between him, Dusty Rhodes and Ric Flair. The Rock was like the third POC champion in WWF's history and that was just this last decade. They have been around since the 1950s.

 

Far more of the POC are villians. Ron Simmons was once Farooq who was the head of the villianous Nation of Domination Black Power-esque group in WWF. Virgil was basically the Million Dollar Man's slave. Rikishi was a popular wrestler but he was stereotype and played the heel in alot of his matches. I wasn't around for Rocky Johnson or Peter Mavia's runs, so I can't really speak to that. What I do know is that out of all of the examples you gave, Booker T may be the only babyface on the list and is of less than a handful of POCs who have won the championship (and by extension, the approval of the owners for promotion). Remember, the WCW and WWF are organizations that have been around since atleast the 1950s. I read that Booker T was the first African American to win the championship and that was just this last decade.

 

And other countries have their wrestling organizations, that is true, and those wrestling organizations represent their own countries neurosis and bigotry. Mexican wrestling is very, very old and also very, very homophobic. The gay wrestlers were pink masks and are almost always the villain. I'm sure there are a handful of gay wrestlers who are the babyfaces but they are far in between, just like the POC babyfaces in the U.S.

 

Pro Wrestling is a form of entertainment and it follows the same rules as the rest of a nation's entertainment. If you are in a country that does not have representation of minority groups in other forms, it will follow the Pro Wrestling will be as well. Even more so, because these characters are engaged in physical combat. If your TV and movie and books tell you that blacks are inferior, then you're not going to spend good money to see a black person physically beat a white person (even if it is fake).

If we're going based on the fact that someone has ever played a villain in wrestling, than Rey Mysterio, Junkyard Dog, and Ricky Steamboat are probably the only truly heroic characters in wrestling, period. Just about everyone, regardless of ethnicity, has changed from hero to villain and back again during their career. The names I listed were all portraying heroes when they won a World Championship, or portraying a hero during the height of their career. Ron Simmons portrayed a hero when he beat Vader for the WCW championship in the early 90s. After that he went to WWE and became Faarooq. To use Hollywood as an example, does playing a villain in the movie Unbreakable discredit Samuel L. Jackson's portrayal of heroes in films like The Avengers or Shaft?

 

Though that question may open the whole can of worms about portrayals of POC in all of entertainment, which was not my intent. My intent was simply to say that there are or were more popular heroic POC in wrestling than just the 2 you mentioned. But I do feel that pro wrestling should do a much better job of representing POC than it does (as should other fields of entertainment). And I do find myself in agreement with your last two paragraphs.

[wakefresh 689]

If we're going based on the fact that someone has ever played a villain in wrestling, than Rey Mysterio, Junkyard Dog, and Ricky Steamboat are probably the only truly heroic characters in wrestling, period. Just about everyone, regardless of ethnicity, has changed from hero to villain and back again during their career. The names I listed were all portraying heroes when they won a World Championship, or portraying a hero during the height of their career. Ron Simmons portrayed a hero when he beat Vader for the WCW championship in the early 90s. After that he went to WWE and became Faarooq. To use Hollywood as an example, does playing a villain in the movie Unbreakable discredit Samuel L. Jackson's portrayal of heroes in films like The Avengers or Shaft?

 

Though that question may open the whole can of worms about portrayals of POC in all of entertainment, which was not my intent. My intent was simply to say that there are or were more popular heroic POC in wrestling than just the 2 you mentioned. But I do feel that pro wrestling should do a much better job of representing POC than it does (as should other fields of entertainment). And I do find myself in agreement with your last two paragraphs.

 

Are you sure about Ron Simmons being the WCW champion in the 90s? That was during my prime wrestling watching days, and I don't remember that storyline at all. It was Sting, the Four Horsemen, and Ric Flair that kept trading back and forth the WCW title? Are you sure it wasn't one of the lower belts -- the US Championship or Tag Team championship?

[Joe Lerini 7329]

 

Are you sure about Ron Simmons being the WCW champion in the 90s? That was during my prime wrestling watching days, and I don't remember that storyline at all. It was Sting, the Four Horsemen, and Ric Flair that kept trading back and forth the WCW title? Are you sure it wasn't one of the lower belts -- the US Championship or Tag Team championship?

It was the World Heavyweight Title:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8HcbF0qHfk

 

They also mentioned this during his WWE Hall of Fame video package.