The_Triple_Lindy

Umm ... hello?

Pictured: Cameron H and I on the boards this week

Neither, really ... when I see stuff like that, I more just shake my head, baffled that something like this was ever considered normal. I live in the south ... I come into contact with more offensive things than that every day. Plus, what Neil does in the movie is nothing like the stuff Jolson used to do.

You gotta hand it to ol' Neil ... the Second Opinions theme from this episode proved that if a person writes a song to the tune "Sweet Caroline" and sings it in public, everyone within earshot will fill in the "Bah Bah Baaaaaaah!" I could only ever wish for that kind of staying power.

Easy

Oh god, you're right ... I can smell it from here.

Pretty much. Also, you're not wrong that Jess is supposed to be an early-20-something. Everything about the character points to him being a younger man. After listening to the episode again today, it's pretty clear that I locked into their running joke that he's 40 and couldn't distance myself from that. But even when I watched the movie prior to the episode, I proved incapable of suspending my disbelief that far.

Man, it's just like me ... spending Thanksgiving with new friends for the first time, and I get comfy and try to play along, then I come on just a little too strong, and before you know it: Fair warning, good Sir H: If you really haven't listened yet, and you hate what we've said about Neil here on the boards, then Secondly, that's not at all what I'm saying, and all due respect, I don't think your above summary of my claims is accurate or fair. I don't even think there's any real disagreement between us. I mean, you're 100% right -- no one should stay in a crappy relationship situation just because. You seem to think we're at odds on that, but that was never my point. And never really intended for any criticism of these fictional characters to go beyond what happens in the film. I'm not judging you or anyone you know, or anyone, at all, so apologies if I'm going in hard on themes of personal import. If I may, though ... all that hard stuff that you and your family members went through as your relationships ended (which is what we all go through when middle-to-long-term relationships end, regardless of how the end comes ), Jess doesn't go through any of that -- he doesn't really suffer, and he doesn't really hurt, and he doesn't learn and grow and come out on the other side a better person. Meanwhile, the movie doesn't even care what happens to those around him in the wake of his decisions, so he's not even inconvenienced by any real guilt or karmic retribution. Maybe you could make the case that this happens off-screen, but we never see it. It's just all perfect for him and in the end he's a rockstar, and you and I can both agree that that is not how life is. But I do see why you enjoy it and your points are well-made and received. However I might object to the movie's commentary on the themes of love and success, these criticisms are from a narrative and performance perspective. I didn't enjoy the story enough to overlook the flaws or criticize them joyfully. I wanted to gut this movie. I wanted to stalk it, torture it, and leave its carcass on the doormat as a gift to you guys and to make you proud. Sorry if I went over the top ... I honestly thought I was being cute.

This is a really interesting critique.

This is only a valid statement if we completely dismiss the upheaval Jess's dream chasing has on Rivka's life! Come on now, buddy ... Okay, I get this because I was in the exact same situation. But we aren't dealing with lovesick teenagers ... these people are in their late 30s. Of course a person is still allowed to chase their dreams at that age, but when you've built a life together with someone for two decades, deciding you want something new is absolutely going to have an impact on the other person. Screw a guilt trip ... that'd be worth damages in a court of law. His desire to change his life, and his choice to end his marriage for it, neither make Jess a bad person, but let's not pretend these aren't moves that will have fallout that he should bear responsibility for. Look, I'm just going to say what we're all thinking here: Paul Scheer said a dozen times that he loves this movie, and he and Cameron H are boys, and they're going to have each other's back, no matter what. Cameron's going to support Paul's inexplicable love of this movie, and Paul is going to support Cameron's segregationalist views, and together they're just going to stonewall any attempt to bring reason and logic to this discussion. #sad #resist

Yeah, I try to remember to say "minstrel" whenever talking about this stuff, which I haven't even touched because I'm so baffled by every other aspect of this movie. Plus, some of you guys are holding it down well. This movie came out the year that I was born, and in 2017, we might be gobsmacked by the "black club" scene in this movie, but I clearly remember watching Bugs Bunny riff off of Al Jolson and watching the Uncle Remus portions of Song of the South when I was a child. Minstrelsy was a major part of vaudeville, which all the early greats (Bob Hope, Bing Crosby, Lucy and Desi, Jerry Lewis, et al) were a part of. It's really interesting to see how ubiquitous the minstrel culture was in America, and how long it lasted ... it was only recently that Uncle Ben and Mrs. Butterworth didn't completely look like minstrel characters. Michigan J. Frog was the mascot for a major television network when I worked for them just 10 years ago. The makeup of just about every clown in every circus pays homage to Jolson's look. Hell, just about every college film studies class requires a viewing of Birth of a Nation. It's so insidiously pejorative and hateful, and its remnants are everywhere because it was so pervasive and accepted for so long.

Olive branch time ... the holidays are a naturally contentious time of year. Anyway ... You're probably not wrong to read the film as an allegorical middle-aged bildungsroman that opines on the choice between familiarity and obligation vs. dreams and desires. That's an age-old humanist dilemma that lots of great art touches upon. The problem that Elektra and Polly are pointing out is that this movie symbolizes that great humanist dilemma by making it, in part, about a choice between two women, both of whom would have their own lives to lead and existential crises to deal with in the real world. Anyone who would treat another person as flippantly as Jess treats both Molly and Rivka would be a IRL douchenozzle. This isn't really a generalization about women in movies, either ... I generally dislike stories that reduce any of its characters down to their basic traits in order to make them props in the protagonist's melodrama -- although it has to be pointed out again that these two women in question are very flat and static characters. Nevertheless, they are presented not as people, but as options. Sure, real-life relationships are ended every day because the two people have irrevocable shifts in their life goals, but these things don't typically come out of nowhere. Yussel, however, just goes. He jumps at the chance to go with Bubba's band knowing that he's going to try to get his own career going, which means he'll prolong his stay as long past those first two weeks as necessary. By the end of those three months, he's not even happy to see her when she shows up because she represents the life he's actively trying to leave behind. That's a douche move. It's not Rivka's fault that Yussel comes to see their life together as a symbol of failure to achieve his dreams, and as an audience, all we see is him treating his wife like an obstacle in his path and making Rivka sad. Likewise, if we take at face value that her attraction to him is genuine, then Molly has no idea that she is also a writ-large representation of this new life that Yussel is after. For all she knows, she an active player and partner in his life who believes their relationship will endure regardless of how their careers go ... I mean, they had nothing when they met, right? Not to mention the whole "giving birth to your child" thing. Then, practice goes rough one day because he's in his head about life's hard choices and he throws a fit and bails, not just on the career but on Molly, too. And she's left behind to pick up the piece of a life she was trying to build with him, too. Basically, he's just selfish. He's mostly honest with Rivka about what he wants, but that doesn't make his actions unselfish. And sure, anyone can be selfish, but he never pays for it ... he gets every thing he wants, not just personally but professionally as well.

By the way, I guess it never dawned on me while I was watching the first time but ... he's from New York? I forgot that immediately because the way he talks about home being such a dead end for him. So this guy has been ho-humming around for two decades, cantering for a huge synagogue and writing songs for other musicians, and if we're conceding that he was probably also gigging and recording and hustling as a guy trying to make it in the business, but he never really had the chance to really go for it and achieve the kind of success that he does in the movie just because he's in New York and not LA? No ... not at all. 20 years of hard work and dreaming gets you nothing in New York? New York's no less a music town than LA. If he was a guy with any real ambition to make it, he would've made something of himself. Once again, this movie should really be about a secret relationship between Molly and Bubba who are brought together by serendipity in the form of a semi-talented but hapless musician, through whom they build both a career in the music industry and a family. Their mutual interests in keeping both her man and his friend afloat lead them to realizing the love shared between them.

I have a friend who was a canter at his temple in town, but it wasn't his job ... he did it because he was the rabbi's son. His temple was clearly much smaller than the fully packed New York synagogue, however. WHY ISN'T THIS MOVIE ABOUT MOLLY AND BUBBA? Nice work, Cam! That's a solid timeline. I know there are some parents on this board ... remember those first six months? The total mind-fucking conflict of loving and bonding and tending this new life who is also keeping you awake all night, shitting every where, and being a total chore? I'm trying to decide where I'd be emotionally if, after being on my own for basically my whole pregnancy and then raising this child on my own for half a year, I turn around during a nice quiet moment alone with my child on the beach to see the guy whose slack I'd been taking up for over a year. Now, I know Cameron's going to point out that he didn't know that he was a deadbeat during the whole time he was being a total deadbeat... but notice how he acts when Bubba gives him the photo of the kid -- as though he were down the hall at the hospital on the day of delivery. There was no, "Holy shit, she was pregnant and I've been playing honky tonk music in Laredo for the last year?!?" There was no heavy realization of what Bubba just laid on him ... he laughs and hugs, and then he just shows back up and everything's fine, and he's barely been inconvenienced at all. I gotta say ... I think I'd yell.

Which begs the question, is it possible that both can be true? In order to portray the weight of crushing responsibility, wouldn't one have to be a good actor? I had this thought about it earlier ... you know how in pro wrestling, The Undertaker is supposed to be undead, and everybody knows he's not, and nobody is really buying it, but everyone has to play along, so while the Undertaker just stands there, everybody else whimpers and cowers and acts all a-fool? That's the sort of level I think this movie is on. You've got people with real bonafide acting chops ... Lawrence Olivier, the progeny of Arnaz and Ball, and Ernie Freaking Hudson playing off of a guy who is not used to being on screen. So Neil Diamond's totally understating everything while they're all going off the top rope. Lawrence Olivier obviously felt like he had to carry every scene he was in, and Arnaz was hamming it up, too.

These are all great points. And can we please talk about Rivka's completely baffling reaction when Molly tells her she "offered her body" to Jess?

See that? He overcame adversity and then sacrificed a gig and delayed his success in order to do right by his family. That's stakes for you! Meanwhile, the entire time Jess is in LA, he knows that if he fails, the worst that happens is he'll go back home where he'll be welcomed with tearful open arms by the entire city. Sure he wouldn't have achieved his dreams, but he ain't in the gutter.

First, let's make it clear, this isn't really about my personal opinions on Neil Diamond. I've walked around singing the "Mon Cheri" song ever since I heard the trailer in the mini-episode. I don't have a problem with Neil Diamond. Yussel Robinowitz, on the other hand, is a douche bag. Those aren't session musicians on stage with him at the gigs. Those are 2-3 dozen working musicians that will expect to be paid. Meanwhile, the band he came to LA with is in the audience with his new girlfriend. That's a douche move, bro. Even the "hottest clubs" around are ghost towns if the act is a no-namer. Maybe things were different in the 80's, so I'll concede that, but I've played to 20 people in rooms that were packed the night before. Being a musician means night after night of that kind of gig for a long time before the good shows start coming around. OK, maybe that's a low-blow on Molly to call her an industry scrub, but Jess? Granted, you're probably right that he's been grinding for two decades, paying his dues, playing to nobody in the clubs around his hometown, but absolutely none of that hard work you describe takes place on screen. Aside from showing up and being sad, he does nothing; it's Bubba that gets him the gigs and Molly that puts his demo in the exec's hand. This movie should really be about how Molly and Bubba turned a 40-year-old manbaby into an overnight superstar. Again, I don't mean to knock Neil or anyone who likes his music. He's an easy target because his sound is so soft, but props to anyone who makes it big. And maybe there's no kid using this as a blueprint for success, but I just hate seeing achievement trivialized like this in movies. This isn't some whimsical teen fantasy movie where I can suspend my adult disbelief in some kid's meteoric rise to stardom -- this movie wants me to take it seriously, and I just can't. The movie even has Molly saying "Nothing ever happens in two weeks" and then, in the very same scene, she gets the phone call that keeps him in LA. The script isn't even listening to itself.

There can never be stakes in a movie where the protagonist does nothing for himself other than tell everyone he meets that he wants to be successful and they then just go make it happen for him. And even if he never really makes it, he just goes back home where he seems to be the most important person in the lives of everyone who knows him.

Speaking as a musician ... fuck this movie. Somewhere in 1980's America, some little kid with dreams of becoming a rockstar watched this terrible flick (probably with their bubbie during movie-and-bingo night at the retirement home in Arizona) and said to himself, "Oh, I can make it! All I have to do is carve out two weeks of my life to follow my real musician friends out to the West Coast, inexplicably charm a woman the instant I get there, move into her beach house, take advantage of her tenuous music business connections, whine my way into hours of free studio, put together a 50-piece orchestra comprised of musicians who will apparently work on the cheap for a nobody, fill a club to capacity for my first gig ever, watch my first record go gold by accident, and garner a huge fan base practically overnight despite having no stage presence or charisma or good songs." And he does this not once BUT TWICE. He gets off the bus in Laredo, plays "You Are My Sunshine" for the easiest-to-please bar owner in the world, and suddenly, there's another band ready to back him for another packed house. There's no way that Neil Diamond just fell so ass-backward into his success, and the fact that he would make a movie that sells such a narrative makes me want to punch him just for all the struggling musicians out there.

Per your request Matt and Matt, a list of characters Bond may have had a homoerotic experience with: Dr. No: Because Dr. No sneaks into Bond's room at night when he's drugged, and when he wakes up, he's in silk pajamas. Quarrel: Bond specifically tells Quarrel where to sleep. Sounds like he was setting up a Crab Key D/s tryst. Kerim Bey: Probably crossed swords at the gypsy orgy. Tiger Tanaka: 100%, in the spa, in the hot tub, because men come first. Columbo: He seems like a good-time guy. I think Colombo would have insisted, in the name of hospitality. Felix Leiter (License to Kill): The Matts mentioned it, but his relationship with Felix and Della clearly insinuates carnal knowledge. Le Chiffre: I mean ... come on ...