Cameron H.

I get that, and honestly, I’m a planner and a worrier, too. I think, from Seb’s perspective, you have to be all in. There can’t be any half-measures. Also, by the time she quits her job, he’s making that cool 52k. So I guess as long as they’re together, the risk for her is minimal.

No, I totally agree. I think you have to be self-absorbed to make it in Hollywood. I think that's why so many Hollywood relationships (no matter the level of celebrity) don't work out. And again, going back to Seb, I think he gets that. Because he loves her, he wants her to go as far as she can go. He also knows she can't do that if she's worried about what's going on with him and his whole jazz club deal. And we see this in the movie to. In the dream ballet, we see that they are living much more modestly than she is in real life. The point being, maybe they could have worked something out, but she wouldn't have been the level of star as she ends up being. And, of course in the dream ballet, they realize, maybe that would have been okay.

But why is this his responsibility? She's an adult. She wants to be an actress. What she's doing isn't working. All he does is give her another option and helps her through it. I don't know that he also needs to be like, "And now if this doesn't work, you should do this..."

I think you're giving her too much of the benefit of the doubt. We just saw her sad and lonely and wanting to be with him. She then finds out that this is what it's going to be and she's like, "OMG is this my life forever?" She is being passive-aggressive. She's pretending like it's out of a concern for him when it's really she wants him to be there with her. This is all in the movie. The scene right before it and in the conversation itself. Yes! He's saying something shitty because he knows she's right! He doesn't want to be doing this, but he's doing it (at least in his mind) for her. If you have a job you don't want to be doing and putting off your dream, the last thing you need to hear is someone telling you how you're wasting your life. Also, while what he says is shitty, he's not exactly lying either. I would need specific scenes. Aside from that one scene, when has he let her down or not been there for her? It's tough love! She has given up! Sometimes you need some to tell you "Stop being an asshole and get your shit together." How is he being "selfish" here? What is he getting out of this? Please feel free to quote the movie. I already outlined in my previous post how he has been there for him throughout the movie. So, again, please tell me specific examples of when he is not there for her throughout the movie. Bottome line: they are both self-absorbed, Mia is just more likable.

If you like, I could also bring up that the money she’s living on is the money he’s earning by giving up on his own dreams - literally putting her dreams before his own. I mean, I COULD say that, but I probably won’t.

1000% We see that she’s lonely and she misses him. She has just gotten off the phone saying as much. The problem isn’t rehearsing for her show. The problem is she just learned that the rest of their potential future together was going to be spent with him not being around. She’s disappointed and she’s being petty in retaliation. (“You don’t want to be in that band anyway...”) The whole point of that scene is they’re not communicating effectively. I guess I feel like Seb is getting a raw deal here. He can be a jerk, but he’s in no way a bad guy. I feel like the idea that he’s not supportive is absurd. He sees her potential and encourages it. He workshops her play with her. And as CakeBug brought up, she quits her job to work on her play and is staying (presumably) rent free in his apartment. The only time he isn’t there for her is at her show. Which, admittedly, is a big deal, but...he *was* going to go - even after she stormed out of the apartment. Hell, they probably hadn’t even spoken since that night and he was *still* going to go. I mean, had they not had that fight and had her show been successful, I doubt she would have been that mad. Disappointed? Sure. But if he told her what happened, she probably would have understood. Then, after she breaks up with him, he drives to another state and tracks her down just from the stories she’s told him about her life. He could have just hung up on that casting agent and been like, “Fuck her.” A lot of people would. The fact of the matter is, she wouldn’t be a famous star if he didn’t get over the petty bullshit. She earned it through her talent, yes, but her talent doesn’t mean shit if she doesn’t know about the offer. And then, after ALL THAT, when she asks him where they are (obviously willing to get back together), even though he wants to be with her, he tells her “no” because she needs to pursue her dream with her whole heart and he knows he’d just be in the way. But, please, tell me more about how selfish he is...

It’s fine. We’re cool. I picked that moment because it was the culmination of the two-hours proceeding it. It doesn’t matter. I just don’t get the woo-hoos at the end of the movie. That’s all. I just feel like it was saying something more than “she became a great actress and now everything is just terrific for her.” We’re allowed to have dissenting views. It’s just my opinion. I just don’t see it as a success story is all.

That shot is from literally the last scene of the movie. Therefore, it’s the emotion the audience is left with. I was not being disingenuous. So please don’t pretend like I picked a scene at random just to make my point. I have never and would never do that. I should hope you know me better than that. I also never said her whole happiness “rests with Seb.” I don’t believe that any more than I believe Seb’s whole happiness rests with Mia. I have never suggested otherwise. After the shot above they share a wistful smile and she leaves. I mean - FFS - I’m not saying either of them is suicidal. I think they are both doing “okay.” They’re doing what they want and are doing just fine. You said earlier that this was her “success story,” and I was saying that just because someone gets what they want doesn’t automatically mean everything is cool. I feel catharsis at the end, I feel happy for both of them, but I don’t feel the celebratory sense of joy you would expect from someone getting what they’ve fought for. As for Shades, I’m just making my fun of the fact that you all assume their doing great and this is what she wants when there is literally no evidence of that in the movie. We do, however, through the dream ballet, have a sense that she’s not perfectly happy with the way things turned out. She can be happy with where she’s at but still be unfulfilled. That’s all I’ve been saying.

The face of fulfillment: I think the moody, blue lighting really highlights her sense of contentment - lol I mean, you guys seem really sold on the whole Shades relationship. I'll tell you what, if any of you can tell me his character's name (without looking it up on IMDb), I'll buy that she's madly in love with him. Like I said before, I feel like she probably has a lot of affection for Shades, but I don't believe she has passion for him. I keep going back to the scene in When Harry Met Sally where they are arguing about the ending of Casablanca and Meg Ryan is saying that Ingrid Bergman is happier being with Claude Raines. Here's the thing, the last things Mia and Seb say to one another is "I will always love you."

Yeah, that’s funny. I mean, honestly, I feel like we’re saying the same thing but using our words interchangeably. So instead of “dream” let’s say “goal” and instead of “success” let’s say “sense of fulfillment.” Mia and Seb definitely attain their goals, but I wouldn’t call it, as Fister did, a “Success Story” because there’s no sense of fulfillment. It would be like calling Citizen Kane a success story. Contrast either of these movies with something like Rocky - which I would consider a success story - where the character faces insurmountable odds, doesn’t win the fight, but finds peace within himself. My point is, I don’t look at either character at the end and say, “Bravo! Great work. You did it! Im so happy for you. I wish I could do something like that.” I wouldn’t necessarily go so far as to say La La Land is a Phyrric victory, but I think that’s more in the ballpark.

I am not messing with you. Mia and Seb achieve their dreams; success would have been if the dream ballet had been reality. The movie's ending is bittersweet and tinged with regret, not "Woot, motherfuckers! We did it!"

Whoa! You think this is a success story? Interesting...

To answer CakeBug’s question, I liked the movie very much. The movie is both affecting and effective. I enjoyed (most) of the songs and it’s shot beautifully. As for the characters, I think they perfectly embody the ciphers they’re meant to be. Taylor brought up the thin characterization of Mia, but I’d argue we don’t know much more about Seb. (For instance, we know where Mia’s love of film comes from, but where does Seb’s love of jazz come from?) I feel like this is intentional as both characters are meant to be archetypes rather than fully realized characters. We’re meant to project ourselves onto them. I don’t know what it’s like to be a struggling actress, but I know what it’s like to want something and have people be dismissive about it. I’m not a jazz musician, but I can relate to the frustration of not being allowed to express myself creatively. I feel like if we were given any more information about their characters, it would change the movie from La La Land (a place where we all can live) to Mia and Seb’s Fantastical Musical.

I just want to say that I’m team opening number. I think it’s important that the movie begins with hundreds of people expressing their individual dreams of making it “big” (and to what lengths they’ll go to achieve those dreams), but the movie ends with two of those people - after fulfilling their dreams - sharing an intimate and modest fantasy that neither of them are going to pursue.

But the thing is, there is no work. She’s competing with - not only the people in the traffic jam - but millions of others. She can’t get anything because, as she says, she’s competing with all these people who are prettier or more talented. She tells him in passing that she used to write and that’s enough for him. If you can’t get a job speaking someone else’s words, speak your own. It’s your basic Tommy Wiseau/Lin-Manuel Miranda ticket to success. It doesn’t matter whether she has talent or not. She can write, so she can do it. It’s about being proactive rather than reactive. The beauty of Seb - and the reason he is the way he is - is he understands that in order to just survive in Hollywood, you have to be your biggest fan. Because you’re going to get rejected - a lot. For your own sanity, you have to be ready to say, “Fuck these people! They should be so lucky to be bathed in my brilliance.” No, it doesn’t make you likable, but at least it will give you the strength to keep going.

IT’S ALWAYS THE ANSWER!

^^^ This. Especially if she just happened into his club that he ended up naming the name she came up with. That’s going to stir up some feelings for sure. At the end of the movie, I feel like Mia truly loves Shades...but she was - and probably still is - passionate about Seb. The question is: wouldn’t it be nice if we could have both? And, of course, that would be ideal. But, as the movie shows us, and C Montgomery Burns tells us, many times, that’s just not the case.

In defense of Seb, “the one thing” he was supposed to remember is actually the one thing he remembered. He forgot the photo shoot, not Mia’s show. And, yes, he totally fucks up, but like he said to Mia getting to be in a band like that is a huge deal. All the people in the traffic jam at the beginning would kill for an opportunity like that. So, yeah, he probably should just gone to her show. John Legend would have indeed understood - and that’s the tragedy. He’s so afraid he might lose even a portion of his dream that he can’t see how cool Legend is being. As for calling her a “baby.” That’s tough love, my man. He believes in her even after she’s lost faith in herself. She’s totally given up at that point so, no, she’s not going to tell him to “fuck off, I’ll drive myself.” The point is she’s 100% NOT going to do that and he knows that. Also, I wouldn’t say he “ruined” everything. They both ruined everything. Everyone is acting like he’s a total dick for surprising her but all he wanted was for her to join him on tour. She says “no,” for her own reasons. Neither of them are right or wrong, though. There relationship ends - not because they don’t love each other - but because he knows she’s going to achieve her dream and she needs to put everything into that. This means the travel and time apart (that was already an issue in their relationship) is only going to get worse. Of course, the dream ballet illustrates how they could have made it work, but, like I said before, that’s only with the benefit of hindsight. Also, when we see the fantasy of their home life, it’s clear that in order for them to be together, it would have meant compromising the full extent of her potential. They’re successful, but only modestly so. When I think of this movie, I think of wise words I once heard: Truer words have never been spoken. Everything else is either luck or a fairytale.

I think it was the same theater they went to see Rebel Without a Cause. I think she picked it for sentimental/luck/destiny reasons.

But, for me, I don't feel like they're ever really in love to begin with - there was just the potential for love. At most, I would say there is a deep affection for one another because each of them provides something that the other one needs. Mia needs self-confidence; Seb needs humility. I feel like the movie is making a point about how even when we fail - whether that's in our professional or private lives - there's always the potential for growth which makes all experiences inherently "good." This is most clearly illustrated with Mia's one-woman play. The way I interpreted the ending wasn't some kind of "Sliding Doors" scenario where this could have been their life had they done things differently. Given the same chance, they would have made all the same choices/mistakes. It becomes this crazy paradox. The ability to see this alternate reality is only possible because of the wisdom they've gained through the experience. There's no reason to listen to one more song because it doesn't change a thing.

AKA One of Cameron H’s favorite movies.

Over on the HDTGM thread, a group of us discuss a different Musical every two weeks and Quasar Sniffer picked Top Hat a few months ago and it was absolutely charming. I’m kind of dreading Swing Time (especially after watching Holiday Inn this year). I wish AFI had gone with Top Hat... Speaking of Musical Mondays, anyone here interested (who isn’t already involved) is more than welcome to join us! It’s all very democratic. We have a rotation for who picks on any given week. We’ve done everything from Phantom of the Paradise to Guys and Dolls; Josie and the Pussycats to Om Shanti Om. Everyone there is funny, intelligent, and cool. And, best of all, knowledge or familiarity with Musicals isn’t required

There are a couple of tiny things that happened in the movie that I really enjoyed. I liked that whenever anyone was like, "She's wearing the ruby slippers" Dorothy would give them one of these: I also liked when Dorothy was saying goodbye to her friends, Judy Garland had taken Toto's paw and was waving goodbye to them all. It was really adorable

When Dorothy first meets Glinda she can’t believe she’s a witch because she’s so beautiful. Glinda then explains to Dot, “Only bad witches are ugly.” Umm...okay. Here’s the thing with that. Not only is that a terrible message to be sending to kids regarding beauty, but here’s the Wicked Witch of the West... ...and here are her Winkie guards (who are, as we come to find out, neither bad nor witches.) As you can see, the Wicked Witch looks to be Winkish, and is no better or worse looking than any of her guards. Guuuuuuys, I’m starting to think that Glinda the Good Witch was racist as fuck.

Here are some (admittedly half-formed) thoughts I’ve been having regarding the movie. In the film version of Oz, almost all of the principle characters have an analogous Ozian counterpart. There are only four characters that don’t: Aunt Em, Uncle (I wanna say...) Henry, Dorothy, and Glinda. Now, seeing as they’re more MacGuffins than actual characters, I totally get why Aunt Em and Henry don’t; and I guess you could argue that Dorothy wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) have one because she’s our main character. But what about Glinda? If these characters are all being pulled out of Dorothy’s comatose brain, where does she come from? Then I started to wonder: What if Glinda *is* Dorothy’s analog? What we learn about Ozian analogs is they all appear to be searching for something their real life versions already possess. Hunk (The Scarecrow) is already smart, Zeke (The Cowardly Lion) is already brave, and Hickory (The Tin Man)...likes to eat crullers or some shit. With Glinda, as she first appears, she almost seems like a child’s over-the-top version of what a “Good Witch” might be. She’s beautiful, yes, but more importantly, she embodies power. All of Oz defers to this powerful woman. They respect her. They listen to her. She’s everything pre-Oz Dorothy’s heart desires. No one tells her what to do. Of course, in the denouement, we come to find out that (*gasp*) the things that the characters wanted were in them all along! And a little later, we get this exchange: Glinda: You don’t need to be helped any longer. You’ve always had the power... Dorothy: ...if I ever go looking for my heart's desire again (self empowerment), l won't look any further than my own backyard (inside myself). So, ultimately, the movie isn’t about getting back to her crappy life with her crappy relatives - and their crappy employees - in her crappy town full of crappy, cold-reading transients and litigious schoolmarms, but about recognizing the power and peace (The Good Witch) that was within the whole time. Which, of course, she’ll probably need in order to deal with all that other horseshit.