Cameron H.

I mean, Roz literally says “we’ve crossed a line.” I don’t know why you’d have that line in your movie if not to suggest *some* line has been crossed. :)/> But this is why it’s so important that both women/sons are in concurrent relationships. We’re supposed to judge them against one another. Ian, while immature, seems to genuinely love Roz. Tom, on the other hand (somehow even more immature) only goes for Lil to get back at Ian. They are essentially the Goofus and Gallant of quasi-incest. The next dilemma is with Mary. Once we get more or less get accustomed to the dynamics, Tom cheats on Lil. But is that for the best? The mothers seem to think so - albeit Roz more readily than Lil. But, more importantly, what do you think? Is it fair to preemptively break it off with Ian based on the assumption that he’ll eventually want to leave Roz? Is the comfort of normalcy worth the heartache? For all the talk of how similar the characters are, where and how they differ is significant. I would say, in its pretentious way, the character that goes on the biggest journey throughout the movie is the audience. Every new situation requires us to reevaluate how we feel. “Oh, now that you’re cool with the mother and son thing, what if we showed you the son’s had daughters? How do you feel now?” This is definitely a movie that requires an engaged viewer.

Let’s not all get hung up on strict Meriam-Webster definitions. It’s just being used as a word to connote “uncomfortably close.” No one is suggesting it’s actual incest. The thing is, the set up to the whole thing is that these women are so close that they’ve basically co-parented their sons. Even before sex happens, they appear to be double-dating their sons. It’s not illegal, just weird. If I can bring up Woody Allen again. Marrying his adopted daughter isn’t “incest” but it’s definitely “incestual.” Same thing here.

I’m sorry. I wasn’t trying to suggest that you specifically were saying it should be “warm and fuzzy.” In a way, I think we’re arguing the same point. The movie is what it is. I just meant that the movie is supposed to make us uncomfortable. And, at least for me, and I believe intentionally, that discomfort comes from the pseudo-incest, not the age difference.

I also don’t think 12-year-olds drink because it tastes good. They drink because it makes them feel good and it’s...taboo. We might as well rename the sin dock the metaphor raft.

Well, then you wouldn’t have a story either. :P/> We’re *supposed* to feel uncomfortable. We’re not supposed to look at this and get warm-fuzzies from witnessing a mature love affair. Everyone behaves terribly. We’re supposed to be asking ourselves “Where’s the line?” It’s something even the characters point out. It’s a huge reason why the boys end up having girls. This isn’t a true story. That was a deliberate move on the writer’s part. It’s challenging us to face that double-standard head-on. If you’re watching this movie and thinking, “isn’t this sweet” or “I don’t get what the problem is” then the movie fails even harder. Ultimately, I’m just not cool with mother/father-figures having sex with son/daughter-figures, even if it is legally copacetic. It’s not an age thing, it’s a maturity thing. You can be 40 and immature as fuck. I don’t need to see parents scold their kids for not helping to clear the dinner table one second and then watch them have sex with them the next.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but Ultimate Trekker never brings up age. He brings up if it were men having sex with each other's daughters, which I do think is a fair comparison when the movie is about mothers having sex with each other's sons. I certainly didn’t get the impression that UT was advocating that such a film should be made, and I took the sex offender thing to be a joke.

I was going to say something similar. In some ways, it would have been easier had they been gay. Their sons are basically sexual surrogates for their own intense platonic love. Btw - I referred to that raft as their “sin raft.” I’m still trying to figure it out all the details, but I feel like the ocean represented - what some might call - a “normal” sex life. When Roz’s husband comes home after being gone for awhile, he tells her the thing he missed most was the sound of the sea (i.e. sex with his wife). When the main characters float upon their raft, it represents a closeness as well as a separateness. They are both in ocean and not at the time. It represents how their relationships subvert traditional sexuality. The ocean - as metaphor for sexuality - also explains why Ian freaks out when his wife takes his daughter out of the ocean. He tells his wife “you’re scaring her.” He’s rebelling against puritanical preconceptions about sex. In this scenario, his wife represents society placing arbitrary taboos around sexuality. That is - you don’t think something is wrong or scary unless someone teaches you that it is. He’s saying there’s nothing to be afraid of. That being said, the movie still ends on an ominous note. While the characters might be content with their situation, how do we the audience feel about it? Are we supportive or repulsed? What does that say about us? I don’t know. Those are just my half-musings about it. As people have said over on Letterboxd, this movie’s biggest sin is being boring. It mistakes its languid pace for “Art.” It desperately wants to be taken as a serious work of art but lacks the finesse it would require to pull that off. If there’s one thing I’m sure of, though, it’s that there’s there’s a screenwriter out there right now ruefully laughing at all of us for not “getting it.”

I’m not sure you are referencing something that was brought up in the episode, but again, I cannot stress this enough, this has nothing to do with a younger men/women with older women/men dynamic. And even though the movie tries to make that a thing, it really isn’t. Everyone in this movie is legally an adult. I could give a shit about their age differences. It’s the familial closeness that’s bothersome. It’s incest without technically being incest. Naomi Watts and Robin Wright even look remarkably similar. So, just for clarity’s sake, age difference? NBD. Engaging in a sexual relationship with someone you raised from an infant and is practically a family member? BD. Or, in other words, the problem isn’t that Woody Allen is older than Soon-Yi.

For my part, I don’t care about their age difference. These women were basically sisters. Roz most likely changed Ian’s diapers - and vice versa. There’s just not enough distance. Had Ian left town after his father died and returned at 25 or something, I would have had no problem. It’s the fact that he even describes her as a “second mother” that’s icky.

I found it troubling both Tom and Ian had girls. Especially considering how doomed and fatalistic everything is presented. Thank God, Mary took those kids away. P.S. I haven’t listened yet. Sorry if I’m being repetitious.

OMG! I HATED that. Like, what even...

According to Wikipedia: "At sixes and sevens" is an English idiom used to describe a condition of confusion or disarray. An ancient dispute between the Merchant Taylors and Skinners livery companies is the probable origin of the phrase. The two trade associations, both founded in the same year, argued over sixth place in the order of precedence. In 1484, after more than a century and a half of bickering, the Lord Mayor of London Sir Robert Billesden ruled that at the feast of Corpus Christi, the companies would swap between sixth and seventh place and feast in each other's halls. Nowadays, they alternate in precedence on an annual basis." I found there to be a lot of British-isms in this. Which makes sense, of course, but is still kind of weird when talking about Argentina.

Well, isn’t it better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it?

I think Tay-Tay might be right. I can watch B&R anytime, but when I tried to watch Batman 1989 recently, I was bored to death. I couldn’t even get through the first scene of Batman Forever...

I feel like it depends. Is this a date, are you going with friends, or are you flying solo? I would take a date to see Boss Baby. It's cute and an Oscar caliber movie. I would go with friends to see Valerian because it's dumb and there's a lot of pew-pew gunfights. If you're going solo, I would just stay in and watch Monster Trucks again. It's been awhile, but I believe he is part of a heavenly bureaucracy who - because of a wacky mix-up - ends up going to Earth by mistake. I believe he starts off as Middle Management Baby and works his way up by the end. I won't tell you if he gives that up in the end to be with the brother he never knew he wanted, though. You'll have to discover that for yourself.

^^^I love Renaissance Man... ETA: In fact, I like most of those movies...

I also really like "Oh What a Circus." I'm especially into how he pronounces "through" and "you" in the part that rawks.

And just so I'm not being a complete Negative Nancy, I will say that I really enjoyed "Another Suitcase Another Hall" and "I'd Be Surprisingly Good For You" I'm not sure why exactly. I get a strong nostalgia-vibe from them even thought I've never heard them before.

I agree with Fister that this feels very CliffsNotes. Like I never really “got” why she was a big deal other than the fact that they kept telling us she was a big deal. (That is, of course, when Ché wasn’t actively telling us she really wasn’t that big of a deal.) It felt more tabloid-y than anything. Why was she worthy of having her story told? I mean, if in the middle of your biopic I feel like I might need to Wikipedia the subject, you might not be doing something right.

I took his tone to be kind of mocking and sardonic so I don't think you're wrong. He's the only one who really seems to see Evita for who she really is - good and bad. My only exposure to Evita prior to this was the Me First and the Gimme Gimmes cover of "Don't Cry for Me Argentina." When it finally came up in the movie I felt like it was too slow. I had to listen to their version.

LOL! Those guitars were bananas!

The fact that the movie spent more time (the first 14 MINUTES) on her corpse than on her life...? All kidding aside, I think I’m starting to get a feel for Andrew Lloyd Webber’s style. It appears to be one or two really catchy songs with a whole ton of filler.

Honestly, it depends on the internship, but most are unpaid. Generally, your “salary” is the experience you gain on the job, and since internships are usually reserved for jobs in highly competitive fields, the opportunity to get your foot in the door. It’s a way to both network and circumvent the dreaded “you say you need someone who has experience, but how do I gain experience if you don’t hire me” ouroboros. It can be frustrating though. Internships in and of themselves can be competitive. Plus, if it’s unpaid, you have to have a means to support yourself. For instance, I was offered a publishing internship back in college, but I had to turn it down because I was already going to school full-time while working a full-time job. I still regret having to turn it down, but at the time, I didn’t really have another option.

YES! This is the one I was thinking of!