Cameron H.
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Days Won
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Everything posted by Cameron H.
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That's very well noted! Well done indeed! Although, slight correction, I think his name is Fritz. Max is the baron.
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As far as Brian's sexuality is concerned, I interpreted him as being gay. While everyone is making some great arguments for "bi" or "a" sexuality, what seals it for me is how it plays as a metaphor for Europe during that period of time. Brian represents England (or Europe as a whole) burying it's head in the sand and ignoring what was going on in Germany. If he ignores it, then he doesn't have to confront it (i.e. go to war). Max, on the other hand, represents the harsh reality. Life would be a whole lot easier (or a cabaret, if you will...) for him if he wasn't gay, but he has accepted that this is his reality and he is standing in his truth. This is what makes Brian such a brave character. No matter what the consequences, what the hardships, he is going to face this thing head on and won't allow himself to ignore it or run from it any longer. The reason Sally and he split is because you can't ignore a problem and face a problem at the same time.
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That's fine, but I still need to get Mrs. Bert's official ranking.
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Godammit, Cam Bert! I know you're out there. I need to know what you thought of Cabaret and if your mother thought Max and his creepy blond mustache was hot or not!
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Indeed it is. But back to your post, I still can't buy that. If that's the case ("Life's short, have fun"*) then she should embody that, which I don't think she does. And if she did, I don't think she's that now (There you go. She's changed ) She goes through the motions of being a party girl, but all I get from her is sadness. The idea of a cabaret, as defined by the emcee in "Wilkommen:" So life is disappointing, forget it! In here, life is beautiful ... And now presenting the cabaret girls! Each and every one a virgin In other words, "Life is terrible. Why not escape your troubles by immersing yourself in willful fantasy?" If this is what "Cabaret" is, as defined by our omniscient Emcee, then we need to apply that definition to her closing number. In which case she's saying, "I'd rather escape into fantasy than accept reality." *I couldn't really listen to your song. I'm basing its meaning exclusively on the title.
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I thought it was this..? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq4aOaDXIfY
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QS1l1mSDSo I just watched the song again and I may be wrong, or at least, maybe not entirely right. Just curious, what does everyone else see during this scene? What is it saying? About her. About anything. This is the movie's thesis, after all. What are we taking away from this song? (Without trying to sway people's opinion one way or another, I would note her expression just before she goes on and how quickly she puts on a happy facade.) My revised hypothesis is that we can pretend that life is whatever we want it to be, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. Whether or not Sally is aware of this or not is up for debate. I think she does, but is trying desperately to cling on to that fantasy for as long as she can.
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Wow, it's so funny how two people can have completely different takes on a movie. I'll give you that she lets Brian go, but you seem to be suggesting that her getting back on stage is a triumph. She wants to be onstage. That's all she's ever wanted. She's still being willfully ignorant to what's going on around her. I guess I just have a bleaker view of her final song. Where you see acceptance, I see resignation. All she has in her future is death. It's more in the music and less in the words. She begins the song on an upbeat note, as if being in a Cabaret is the best thing in the world. This mood continues through her first verse about Elsie. Then the tempo changes to a more wistful note. She's saying, "Yup, that's how I'm probably going to go too." The song then picks back up for the finale, but I don't see this as her convincing the audience the "life is a cabaret" so much as her trying to convince herself. She's trying to give herself strength. Just like nearly everything in the movie, I feel the song is a metaphor for Nazism. They ignored the problem when they could have done something about it, things got worse, and now all they can do is hope everything is going to be okay (spoiler alert: it won't be.) I just can't see this movie trying to give Sally this triumphant ending. It just doesn't fit the tone of the movie--especially in that final scene.
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Oh, boy! Do I disagree! (Here we go!) Brian changes significantly. He accepts (or at least confronts) his sexuality, he stands up to Nazis, and leaves Germany a very different person than who he was when he arrived. Sally ends the movie as she began it--desperate for her big shot and deluded of what's going on around her. For a moment she allowed her vulnerability to show, but with a wave of her fingers, she is wrapped in her armor once again. Fuck, that's dinner. Be back later
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IS it Sally's movie, though? I'm not entirely sure of that, BUT...I'm prepping dinner right now so can't get into it Food for thought, how many scenes (aside from songs) does Sally carry on her own?
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It's sooooooo dark. And I agree, we should by all means recognize these moments. I just felt like saying that it was "disappointing" might be a bit harsh. Just five years after homosexuality was decriminalized in the England (the US would be "working on it" for many, many years to come), this movie offered the world a sympathetic, non stereotypical, three dimensional, homosexual person as a main character in a major motion picture. That's pretty awesome.
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And that's not to say anything about "Maybe This Time" which explicitly states her feelings. She is bohemian, yes, but there's also a strong pull toward a more stable and traditional relationship. This is why the telegram from her father is significant. We are getting the impression that men just don't "stick around." That's what Brian represents--the college job, the tiny cottage in the country, etc. Her desire to be a successful actress/singer and her desire for a more traditional lifestyle are constantly at odds with one another. Ultimately, her love for Brian wins out. She realizes that their relationship would never be "real," and her refusal to come with him (not to mention the abortion) absolves him of any responsibility. That's her tragedy. She never gets that stability. Nor will she ever find that success. At best, considering what's about to go down, she'll end up just like "Elsie."
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As far as the "friend zone" stuff, I'd say it's all about denial, which is the running theme throughout. Sally's in denial that she probably won't become a movie star by working in a seedy, German cabaret; Brian is in sexual denial; Fritz is in denial of his Jewish heritage; Sally and Brian are in denial that their relationship has a future; the Kit Kat club is in denial that it's a "safe place" from the world's problems; Fritz's love interest is in denial that he loves her for more than her money; Germany is in denial of the threat posed by the Nazis. The tragedy of the movie is by the time anyone recognizes they're in denial, it's too late, or at least, the timing is terrible.
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First of all, Elke was a MAN?!? I thought she meant she had more than syphilis. I missed that one completely. I mean, I get the disappointment, but I feel like this movie was extremely progressive for its time that it's almost unfair to judge it by saying it wasn't progressive enough. To me, It's like your country winning the long jump competition, but being disappointed that they didn't beat the world record.
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Sally 100%, truly loves Brian. It's why she can't go with him in the end. If she goes, they would be denying themselves who they truly are. Specifically, her ambition and his sexuality. Eventually, this repression of their true selves would end in hatred and resentment, so it's better for them just to part ways. They love each other too much to stay together.
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This was awesome! I loved how all the scenes were either a contrast or a parallel without seeming forced. The Emcee was amazing! I loved how he starts out almost buffoonish, but by the end, comes off so sinister. Like how that evil just creeps up on you, and before you know it, you're aiding and abetting it. Maybe it was played for a laugh at the time, but I didn't think so. I felt it was just indoctrinating Brian into this whole new world that he has no frame of reference for. I loved this so hard. It shows how she just compartmentalizes everything. How entrenched her delusions are (another metaphor). In the previous scene, she's all big eyes and almost childlike in her fragility, and in the very next scene, she's a quick handshake and "ta-ta"ing a wave over her shoulder without a backward glance. If I haven't already made it clear, I loved this movie too. It was so brutal and didn't pull any of it's punches. It doesn't need to tell you what happens to all of the characters, it shows you in in that final silent image reflected in a distorted mirror. It's too late. It's gone too far. Every single one of them is doomed in one way or another.
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They came soooo close when they were all dancing together and then the dumb Nazi metaphor had to barge in and ruin their sex.
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I just wanted to add onto my own argument, it's also important to acknowledge that Sally lives in a world in which she deludes herself constantly. Once she and Brian started hooking up, I think she was more than willing to overlook the signs that he might be gay.
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I got the impression that neither of them knew he was attracted to men, or at least, he wasn't ready to admit it to himself. That's why, when he first meets Max, he has this look of shock on his face when Max assures him he's not trying to sleep with him. That forthrightness is not something he's familiar with. And while I think she might have been initially suspicious, Sally certainly doesn't know for sure until he tells her that he's "screwed" Max too. That's why she calls them bastards. It doesn't even enter her mind that he might be interested in Max. So, while I get where you're coming from, I don't think they were trying to say "the right girl will make you straight" so much as you can be so repressed that you don't even know who you are.
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Agreed! There was so much nuance in this film. I loved the use of the Kit Kat club as a mirror of what was happening socially at the time. How it begins and ends in that distorted reflection and how we see how much can change in such a short amount of time. How we can have our sanctuaries (or "bubbles" to use the modern metaphor), which are nice and all, but if we aren't vigilante, if we are too laissez-faire toward the darkness around us, the horrible outside world has a nasty habit of infecting even the places where we feel most free, most safe. I also loved how the movie (a Musical!) made the daring, and effective, choice to bookend the film in silence. That was some powerful stuff.
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If anything, I think Cliff Bradshaw sounds more British than "Brian." So weird.
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Me First and the Gimmie Gimmes' cover of "Cabaret" was my only exposure to this Musical prior to watching it, and I was honestly a bit surprised that the song in the movie didn't sound more like it...
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That was me, and I apologize if I aggravated or annoyed you. Whether the list was in order of insanity or not, it was apparently the second thing your mind went to when making the list. And that is absolutely fine, even if I still don't get why it's a big deal. But even beyond that, there doesn't seem to be anything on your list they can really sink your teeth into. There's no Van Dammes trying to pass as an American Colonel, there's no switching of faces, nor monkeys killing and peeing on people. There's not even a best friend that is suddenly revealed to be a ghost at the end. Again, I haven't seen this movie, so I'm willing to believe you, but nothing you've said so far has convinced me. Give us specific examples. If you think a name is weird or a casting choice is weird, you have to tell us why it's weird. Just saying, "so and so from Dawson's Creek was cast in this" or "why is Woody Harrelson in this" doesn't really mean anything to me. Even, "the plot is strange" doesn't tell me anything. How exactly is it strange? Because they've done movies where floating heads have thrown up rifles before... And I'm not saying that every movie they do has to be crazy bananas. But when you suggest a movie that seems to be critically well-regarded, and based on the responses to this suggestion and the RT score, also seems to be popular with people in general, I think you're going to need to back up your position with some much stronger arguments. Ultimately, it just sounds like you don't like the movie, which is totally fine, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit for the show.
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I haven't seen the movie, so I can't really say one way or another if it should be done or not, but I'm not sure how much mileage they're going to get out of "her brother's name is Darian." Am I missing something? Is it a "thing" in the movie? Otherwise, it's a perfectly reasonable name. If that's honestly one of the craziest things about the movie (literally your second point) I don't think it's going to make the cut.
