Cameron H.

This got lost in the shuffle, the catalyst for Bella moving to Forks is her mother getting married to a baseball player and moving to Jacksonville. Her father hooks up with one of the women from Jacob’s tribe. (I can’t remember her name).

I’m literally the only fighting in favor of these movies - lol I’m not dismissing anyone or attacking anyone’s views. I’m defending Twilight in the same way I defend the Prequel Trilogy. People pick on them as “easy targets.” The whole reason this even came up was Watch Out For Snakes said she couldn’t get through the first movie. I replied that, in my opinion, they get better and gave a theory I had on the Twilight Saga and was subsequently told that the books were “gross” and “left a bad taste.” After that, I just gave me rationale and defense for thinking they were fine. You guys gave me reasons why you think they’re not. And I responded in kind. I’m not dismissing, I’m listening and I’m engaging. Specifically, I’m engaging in a conversation with about five people who think I’m dead wrong - lol.

Why do you believe this though? If in New Moon, Bella engages in risky behavior after a heartbreak, and every character is like, “What the fuck are you doing?” (Which they repeatedly do), how is Meyers endorsing Bella’s behavior? If she, the author, has her characters questioning what Bella’s doing, then she recognizes that the behavior she is engaging in is wrong. Otherwise, everyone would be like “You go, Bella. Jump off cliffs if it makes you feel closer to Edward! Great idea!” Instead, everyone is like “Pull yourself together. You’re a fucking mess.” What’s problematic is that after engaging in this behavior, she gets back together with Edward. It would have been healthier for her to be like, “You know what? Yeah, you hurt me, bro. But I’m good with being me.” But that’s what would be good in real life. In her books, they are supposed to be soul mates and just meant to be - end of story. They can work through their issues. What works for Bella and Edward works exclusively for Bella and Edward because Bella and Edward are fictional characters in a fantasy novel and that’s what the fantasy novel is specifically about. Obviously this is one specific example, but the point can be applied to most of what happens through the series. As I mentioned above, Belle shouldn’t end up with the Beast. Ariel shouldn’t end up with Eric. Jasmine shouldn’t end up with Aladdin. Snow White shouldn’t end up with Prince Charming. And on and on and on. If someone thinks, “I feel kind of bad about it, but I just watched Aladdin and thought that I would pretend to be someone else for awhile to get close to this person. And if she ever finds out I’ve been lying to her, it’s cool because she will know my intentions were pure” then the problem is with them, not with Disney. What’s important is in the first movie, a scared and indecisive Bella runs away from danger. A single vampire. In the final movie, a strong and confident Bella, literally reborn, confronts an army of the most dangerous vampires head on. So if you’re just looking at movies 1, 2, and 3 and criticizing it for specific moments, but ignoring where her character eventually ends up, then I don’t know what to tell you. It’s like basing everything you know about Harry Potter on the first six books, but ignoring everything that happens in the Deathly Hallows. And, again, I’m arguing for a series I don’t necessarily like. I’m just fighting against knee-jerkism and dog piling. People are so quick to dismiss a very popular book series - and by extension it’s legion of fans. I’d like to afford it at least a little consideration. I’m trying to understand the appeal, and I think I do. That’s all.

And that’s all I’m saying, it’s intention versus interpretation. The author can only control one. If someone interprets Twilight literally, then, yes, it’s no good. But at that point, we’re getting mad at Twilight because someone misinterpreted a metaphor. It’s getting mad at Paul McCartney because he wrote a song about a carnival ride that was later interpreted by a crazy person as the clarion call of a race war. All fairy tales set unreasonable and unrealistic expectations. An abusive, possessive monster becomes a better person due to the patience and perseverance of the woman he holds at his mercy? That’s not Twilight, that’s Beauty and the Beast! At heart, Fairy Tales are dark and are not meant to show a realistic representation of how life actually is. Most fairy tales end in marriage after fleeting encounters. It’s what we hope will happen (“Wouldn’t it be great if I met the perfect person out of nowhere”) not how things actually are. That’s why they are steeped in the magical and supernatural and not about a couple of boring kids who work at Kroger. It’s make believe. It’s not Twilight’s fault if people don’t get that or take it the wrong way. And don’t get me wrong, I used to be down on Twilight too. But my opinions have evolved the more I’ve seen it.

But that goes back to my previous points. The Twilight books weren’t trying to show us a healthy relationship. And I think viewing it as such is wrong. They were showing a relationship teenagers could relate to in their real lives. (“I know a guy like Jacob. He’s so nice. Im just not into him like that.” “I love my boyfriend but sometimes he can be so possessive.”) The ideal relationship (at least according to Meyers) doesn’t occur until the final book/movie. No one should be looking at Twilight or New Moon and expect that what they’re seeing is True Love. If that were the case, there would only be one book.

Yes, and you turned out alright. Taylor read Twilight in High School and now she’s a badass I think we are worrying too much on what we think might happen when people read stuff with problematic elements than what actually does happen. Intelligent people will be fine. Dumb people will always be dumb.

I’m not saying that they AREN’T problematic. I’m saying that they are no more problematic then a lot of stuff. Everything from Romeo & Juliet to The Hunger Games has shit that’s problematic. Twilight just gets picked on more - especially, but not exclusively, by dudes. There are antecedents to everything in the Twilight books, but as a culture, for some reason, we decided they were going to be our punching bag. You both brought up anecdotes of people who emulated Bella and Edward-esque relationship traits. Well, kids used to tie sheets around their necks and jump of their roofs trying to fly like Superman. Some people are just dumb and miss the point, but I don’t think we need to ban Superman or suggest that the writers are failing our children. I mean, are the books poorly written? Absolutely, but that didn’t stop them from being massively successful. Are they lasting pieces of literature? Honestly, I don’t know. What I can say is that we’re still talking about them 10 years after the fact. That’s pretty goddamn impressive. So who knows? (Do people even talk about The Hunger Games anymore?) Are the movies bad? Well, they made a ton of money (mostly from dumb people who hated them apparently ). They were covered on HDTGM? So are the Fast and Furious movies. And, as I recall, Paul, Jason, and Doug admitted to not only liking the last one, but crying at the end! This is what I’m going to say: Twilight is not perfect. There are flaws. Sure. But all movies have flaws. There will always be problematic elements. Hell, all the movies I love have flaws. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Marvel movies, they are all deeply flawed and problematic. However, the flaws are fun to discuss and pick apart while you’re watching them for the zillionth time. It’s part of what makes them special. It’s the piling on that I object to. Twilight is just fine. It just gets it worse than other genre fiction.

Well, then let’s just go ahead and throw away all Fiction and Art ever created that’s based on a person’s upbringing, beliefs, and religion. Did Burgess write A Clockwork Orange because he hoped people would emulate Alex? People idolize Travis Bickle (for the wrong reasons) so I guess Taxi Driver is completely devoid of merit. Look, I’m not saying the books are perfect or that I agree with everything (or anything) in them. But I feel like most of the criticism about them has to do with a backlash against literature aimed for women rather than anything truly substantive. The same themes that occur on in Twilight are common in a lot of Romance novels, but because Twilight was such a success, it bares the brunt of the animosity. It’s the reason why erotic fiction is looked down upon as being less than even while being a BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. For many years, Romance Novels were Amazon’s primary money maker. Yet, Romance books and writers are under attack all the time. Once Amazon established itself, it immediately tried to squelch the thing that made it a success. So, is Jacob incel? Probably not that extreme, but yes. Why? Because that’s a character type teenage girls are familiar with! He’s fucking Duckie! A character that people understood 20 Years earlier. These criticisms are precisely why the books resonate with people. I mean, give me a movie and I will nitpick it to death for you. Hell, I do it here all the time.

But it’s also a fairy tale book about vampires and werewolves. I don’t think any impressionable teens are walking away from Twilight thinking, “I sure wish Timmy would break into my room tonight and stare at me while I sleep. Then I know he loves me.” He’s supposed to be creepy, weird, and off-putting. What would be the point of making him just like a normal teenager? If that were the case, then you might as well just write a story about two regular old teens falling in love. All the creepy things he does feeds into Bella’s unease. She’s not right off the bat like, “I love him.” She’s drawn to him but afraid of him - which is something in every vampire book and story ever written. So, yes, if we’re talking real life, totally. It’s really problematic. But with narrative shorthand, we get that he’s probably okay pretty much right away. It’s just like we get Mr D’Arcy is okay long before it’s actually revealed or how we know Prince Charming isn’t just some creep who likes to kiss dead women.

In defense of these movies/books, I will say they really work better as a complete series. To @taylorannephoto‘s point about them sending a “terrifying message” to teenage girls, that’s only true if you think Meyer’s point was to say, “Girls, this is what you should be aspiring toward” which I would argue she’s definitely not. She calls Bella out constantly on her bullshit. Bella is the protagonist, but she’s not meant to be a hero to be emulated. She fucks up. She does dumb things. She’s stubborn and petulant. All things teenagers - and adults - can relate to. It’s not about saying, “Here’s a person you should be,” it’s about, “Here’s a person just like you, who feels insecure and helpless and ugly and dumb.” Nor do I feel like it’s saying, “If a person breaks up with you, be reckless,” it’s saying, “I understand what it’s like to hurt. You may want to do something stupid. I get that. I won’t judge you.” Hell, that resonates with me - an adult man. When my first “love” and I broke up, I was a mess for months and months and certainly in no position to be anyone’s role model. That’s what the books provide. That’s where the connection is. As far as her criticisms of her personality, I mean, that’s her journey! The movies aren’t about beheadings and hardcore battles. If that’s what you’re looking for or want to see, then you and the movie are speaking two totally different languages. There is a journey. But it’s an internal journey into maturity. She starts off as an insecure person and becomes a self-confident badass. It’s just crazy to me to expect a person on page one of a four book series to be the same person they are on the last page of the last book. People give her so much shit for who her character is in the beginning, but never stop to reevaluate her as the movies progress. It would be like hating Han Solo in The Force Awakens because he was a cocky, mercenary piece of shit in A New Hope. Sometimes, it seems like Bella is the only literary character that’s expected to be an absolutely flawless character from the word go - and that’s bullshit. Ultimately, Bella is not meant to be a role model. And I don’t think it’s Stephanie Meyers intention or her responsibility to make her one. She’s just Bella. She’s offering the point of view of a normal, sullen, emotional teenager. It’s no wonder that adults struggle to connect with that, but I don’t think it’s right to be outright dismissive of that point of view either. Just because it doesn’t speak to you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t speak to someone.

Based on Sam's derision regarding her mother's crappy photography and her friends' negative response to her telling them that she was working on a project for the yearbook, am I to understand that Hannah just took it upon herself to pick up new electives mid-semester that better suited her own interests? I thought she was going to school and keeping Sam's academic seat warm as a favor for when her consciousness returned? Yearbook is clearly not something Sam was into. Was she just like, "Yes, there's a very good chance that my daughter's immortal soul is irrevocably trapped in purgatory for all eternity, but while we wait to find out, I might as well make the most of it and get in some of those good, good photography hacks."

A bizarre moment for me was at the end when Hannah-as-Sam is signing her friend’s yearbook and when the subject of her handwriting comes up her friend says something like, “I really miss your mother,” and I was just thinking, “You DO???” This is one of the “friends” who was complicit in the whole, “Let’s get high at your mother’s wake” plan. At no point did I ever feel like any of her friend’s gave a single shit about her mother - at all. When they show up on their doorstep at the beginning, Hannah doesn’t even seem to know who they are. But apparently, unbeknownst to us, this one teenage girl had a real surrogate mother/daughter thing going on with Hannah. Something never brought up until the very last scene just so Hannah-Sam can tell us with a wink that she’s permanently hijacked her daughter’s body. #Momoftheyear

Hey, Cam, it’s okay...

Speaking of which, I found it hilarious when she couldn’t recognize the school guidance counselor and it was treated as being super bizarre. I swear, you could have held a gun to my head in High School and I would never in a million years been able to tell you who my guidance counselor was.

I agree with the gang about how all their arguments and huge emotional moments seemed to happen in public. My favorite example of this was near the end of the movie when Duchovny is coming to terms with the idea that he’s going to lose his wife for a second time and he’s straight up ugly crying at work while looking at photographs of the two of them. Then, slowly, the camera pans over his shoulder and reveals a dude sitting in the optometry chair waiting patiently for his optometrist to get his shit together and examine his eyes. I can’t even imagine what must be going through that guy’s head, but I’d love to read his Yelp review: Arrived on time for appointment and was promptly led to Dr Duchovny’s unusually dim office to begin the exam. He sat me down, complimented me on my “beautiful eyes” - which seemed mildly inappropriate - and then turned his back to me for, like, five minutes while he stood crying over some blurry photos of nonsense. He kept mumbling something about his “daughter-wife?” I don’t know. I’m sure that’s not what he was actually saying, because that’s crazy, but it was strange and really uncomfortable. Like, what do you even do in that situation??? He just stood there sobbing and sniffling loudly. I know he’s a doctor and all, and I should trust him, but he was clearly emotionally unstable. I mean, I was there for cataract surgery for Christ’s sake!!! There was no way I was about let this crazy person anywhere near my eyes! Anyway, eventually he told me he wasn’t feeling very well and asked me to leave, which, at that point, I was more than happy to do. One Star - Do Not Recommend!

Jammer, we need another Musical...

Next month is Cool as Ice...just saying

Here’s something I simply could not fathom. Hannah keeps insisting that Sam is going to come back so they both decide that the best course of action, to ensure and protect their daughter’s future academic success, is to just keep on keeping on. And, okay, sure, I can kind of get that, but why does she have to physically go to school? Why not just home school? Why does the onus of re-attending High School have to fall on Hannah’s shoulders? She clearly doesn’t want to. At least, not at first. They’re both intelligent, educated adults. Between the two of them, without the distractions and drama of High School, they could probably knock out her course work in a weekend, and then spend the rest of their time trying to figure out just what the heck is going on. Having her go to High School just creates needless obstacles and undue stress. On a related note, while I get keeping her grades up (just in case), I’m not really sure how getting underage drunk and doing drugs is doing her daughter’s body and brain any favors. It’s like borrowing a friend’s car and then shitting in the backseat.

Even without any prior knowledge of the film, I could tell it was going to be super gross when in the first ten minutes the adjective “spongy” was used to describe the softness of a person’s lips three times. Also, for the record, the family prepares dinner two separate times in the first seven minutes of the movie - which feels...excessive. Then again, I suppose it draws the audience’s eyes to their spongy lips, so what do I know?

Sorry to be the one to point this out, but I think you’re math’s off. Twenty years from when the film was released would have put that concert in 1987 or '88. A quick gander at the Cure's discography shows that their album Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me came out in ‘87 and featured the hit song “Just Like Heaven” - which I would argue is The Cure just getting to their commercial height. (Disintegration w/ hits “Pictures of You” and “Lovesong” [their highest charting single] was released in ‘89 and Wish, w/ “Friday I’m in Love,” was released in ‘92.) So, it checks out is what I’m saying. Everything checks out. The whole damn movie checks out. There are no holes.

No, I get it. I definitely used to feel the same way. I definitely don’t feel like Bella and Edward are aspirational characters in the first movie. She’s insecure and immature. Edward is caustic and controlling. I have a theory that there isn’t one “Edward,” but he represents different relationship types in each of the movies. In the first movie, he’s your first crush. The person you want to be with, but just isn’t right for you - either because you are too different or because the attraction is surface level and the other person is kind of a jerk. It’s the whole bad boy/girl syndrome. In the second movie, New Moon, the relationship is healthier, but still immature. This would be the person you would probably consider your “first love.” It’s also the type of relationship that ends due to extenuating circumstances rather than any loss of attraction or affection. The kind of messy breakup where feelings are left unresolved. Like if you and your high school boyfriend/girlfriend get accepted to different colleges. Or, perhaps more apt, your SO gets accepted to an out of state college and you have to stay home in your soggy, little town. It’s about trying to move on when you’re not at all ready to do so. In Eclipse, it’s about being on the precipice of an adult relationship and coming to terms with a life long commitment (i.e telling everyone you are no longer available, deciding to become immortal). It’s about letting go of the past, and other possible futures, and making a choice - for good or bad. In Breaking Dawn, it’s about solidifying that decision. It’s about maturity and discovering who you truly are by virtue of all the crap that’s come before. By the last movie, Edward isn’t telling Bella what to do. He’s not trying to protect her. They are fighting side-by-side to protect the future they want to create with each other. In terms of lopsided relationships, you could argue that by the end the dynamics have completely reversed. With Edward literally telling Bella, “You are better than me.” (A loooooong way from Twilight - lol) However, I feel like that’s just him being sweet. I feel like they end the series as equals - which is how it SHOULD be and something all couples should aspire towards.

Yes, it’s like that in the book, but there is real growth in Bella. By the last movie she’s her own person and 100% Edward’s equal. That’s her journey.

I invite you in my little bloodsuckers.... https://www.rabb.it/s/2uzft1

I can't wait for Charles Barkley to take em to the paint