Cameron H.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I loved Passing Strange - the acting, the staging, the heart and humor. I love the music and the way it all kind of washes over you. They’re maybe not the most sing-a-longable, but it completely immersed you in the emotion that’s being conveyed. This is the kind of movie where I really appreciate Musical Mondays as this was completely off my radar. I’m glad CakeBug picked it or I would never have known it existed.

And what’s even more ironic is that toxic group of people would have REALLY hated the rewrites I would have done to The Last Jedi and Wonder Woman.

I’m sorry you couldn’t make it - although I hope you had fun. We watch I Know Who Killed Me. It was...not good

Yes, but couldn’t you say there are parts of all jobs - no matter how glamorous - we’d all rather not do? If that’s the case, then shouldn’t the critic’s responsibility be to judge a movie based on how successful it is at achieving its goals within its particular genre? I keep going back to what Tim Heidecker said in The Odd Life of Timothy Green episode of HDTGM. He says something to the effect of, while it’s not necessarily a great film for him personally, he can’t exactly judge it against high cinema or anything because that’s not what it’s trying to be. All you can ask is: is it a good kid’s movie? If the answer is ‘yes,’ then the movie did it’s job. So, to me, and feel free to disagree, it shouldn’t really matter if a critic personally likes superhero movies. They just need to ask themselves, “Does Black Panther achieve, or maybe even surpass, what a superhero movie should achieve?” To me, it’s kind of like how many of us view the AFI list. We may not like, say, Westerns, but we can judge each individual movie against other examples in the genre to make an objective argument as to why it should or should not be included on the list.

If it makes you feel better, I had major issues with the third act, too. And, I agree, at the time, I just kind of kept my head low. I understood why it was important, I appreciated its impact, and there were a lot good things about it. But for me, the movie never really lives up to the promise of its incredible first act.

Oh, it absolutely goes both ways. I feel the same way about The Last Jedi. It really didn’t work for me as a film. So it was really obnoxious being on Twitter or wherever and seeing a bunch of people whose opinions you generally respect saying things like, “The only people who don’t like The Last Jedi are a bunch of basement dwelling, misogynistic, racist, incels.” Neither I, nor my wife, liked the movie, and we are none of those things. We just thought it was kind of boring. However, I know a lot of people here loved it. I don’t think they’re stupid for that. I don’t need our opinions to be 100% in alignment all the time. It doesn’t hurt anyone if someone likes it and I don’t. As long as we can be civil and not being dismissive, we’re cool. We can have a real dialogue about it’s merits or faults. Otherwise, it’s just a bunch of assumptions and name calling.

I feel like the conversation has gone in the direction of whether or not superhero movies are good, but from what I gathered from Taylor’s initial response that’s not really the issue she had. I think everyone can agree that some superhero movies are better than others. I feel like the issue isn’t so much an argument against their quality and more against their popularity. For me, people reacting against superhero movies for being popular is a lot like people turning their noses up against pop musicians in favor of some secret, brooding indie artist that they personally enjoy. No, a lot of pop musicians aren’t exactly pushing the envelope artistically - at least, not outside of their particular niche - but neither are they necessarily aspiring to. Furthermore, I find the people who like to turn their noses up at popular culture in favor of their esoteric favorites, are usually the first to turn their backs on their favorite artists the moment they achieve a modicum of commercial success. It’s all very high school. It’s claiming all the popular jocks are a bunch of morons, but because you harbor an affinity for early 19th Century Romantic Poetry it makes you “deep” (i.e. better/smarter.) It’s outsider chic; a means to justify misanthropy. “I’m not a nerd. I’m cool because I’m into this thing and you’re dumb because you’re not. And, no, I won’t even attempt to learn anything more about you that might shatter my narrow, two-dimensional perception of you.” Ultimately, who cares if something is popular? No one’s forcing anyone to enjoy something they don’t like. And certainly, no one should be getting distressed over people liking a specific type of movie. That’s silly. Enjoy or ignore them as you see fit. But don’t dismiss something that people like just because it doesn’t work for you personally. Nobody likes pretension.

Okay...Rabbit has made some changes, but I THINK this is the link: https://www.rabb.it/s/2uzft1

I appreciate you trying. Speaking of things no longer on Netflix, I see Swordfish is gone so I guess we can expect that episode to drop any day now

Np, Taylor, thanks for trying. So...I Know Who Killed Me, then? I’ll host if y’all want.

Kind of like their criticism of Psycho

Thanks for taking the time to do this, Dan

I read this as After Earth, and I was like daaaaaaamn.

Exactly! When people say things like, “Isn’t it sad that people like such-and-such so much” what it seems like they are really saying is, “I wish people liked the things I liked more. It sure would be better.” Which feels, I don’t know, kind of narcissistic or something. We don’t have to tear a thing down in order to raise something else up. We don’t all have to like the same things. We can even passionately disagree. But what we shouldn’t be is dismissive because that closes the dialogue forever.

I 100% agree! I haven’t listened to the episode, but that type of attitude always feels like intellectual/artistic profiling and it can’t help but come off as snobbery of the highest order. “Oh, you like those punchy-punch, superheroes in tights movies? Well, then I already know everything about you and you must be this type of person and like these types of things. I mean, obviously, you’re too much of a Neanderthal to recognize real ‘Art’ when you see it. Poor deluded you...” I like superhero movies, and I like other movies too. I read comics, but I also read books of classic literature, religion, poetry, and art. I’m not an outlier - especially not with this crowd. The one thing I can say about superhero movies is that they are -currently- probably the one thing in this world that people on both sides of the aisle can agree on. If this is the one bit of common ground we have left, shouldn’t we nurture that rather than create further division by dismissing it as being a lesser art form, and implicitly, only for “lesser” people? As Taylor said above, superhero movies are a perfect vehicle for people to ingest on a purely entertainment/spectacle level while opening up the doors to heavier and more divisive subjects (e.g race, sexism, civil rights) I mean, if Black Panther convinces just one child of a racist that maybe racism isn’t the right way, then isn’t that worth it? Doesn’t that make it important?

I just don’t get the same vibe that some of you seem to have that the movie was ever making that much of an effort for us to “like” Jamie. If anything, I’d argue the opposite is true - what with the infidelity, opening/closing, and “temptation” song. There’s even Cathy’s bit about her ex leaving her with a letter - foreshadowing (postshadowing?) Jamie leaving her the same way and suggesting that he was always just as bad. Overall, I feel like he’s a pretty well-rounded character. I get who he is and what makes him tick. Sometimes he’s okay and sometimes he’s not. He has human flaws, but he’s not an outright villain. He’s just kind of a piece of shit. I mean, I get the tag line suggests there are two sides to every story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean to suggest that both sides are right. Just that they each have a point of view. I get where he’s coming from and why he does it, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

Yeah, I had a similar issue with The Smurfs. It was in Stars, but rabbit wouldn’t me set up the room unless I rented it. The funny thing was I tried it with other movies on Stars and some worked while others didn’t. I mean, come on! As long as we’re not charging people to watch, who fucking cares - lol

I agree. I think most people would still definitely side with Jathy. I also feel like there’s a risk, based on societal norms, that he would come off as needy, whiny, and weak. But not only do I think there’s a risk of misogyny and sexism, I think the optics on some of the numbers changes dramatically. Like I agree Jamie singing about his mother before sex comes off as icky, but I doubt it would feel that way if Cathy were singing that song. In which case, the real meaning of that song becomes more apparent - that the singer is so in love with this person that that he/she is willing to risk being disowned. Which, honestly, is a pretty big deal.

Agreed. I also wonder how we would feel if you reversed their roles. Like, keep everything exactly the same but give all of Cathy’s lines to Jamie and vice versa.

That’s a big reason why I don’t like that song in the movie as I feel like it muddies the point of the movie. The reason I feel like it absolutely has to do with their relative success is because you can’t remove that and still have the same movie. However, you can literally pluck the temptation song out of the movie and have essentially the same thing. That scene just gives the impression that his character’s infidelity is premeditated. As I said earlier, I think there’s more drama in “What drives a person into someone else’s arms” rather than, “They were probably going to cheat anyway. As for the parties, I was honestly was being a bit hyperbolic with my suggestion that it was all or nothing. Ultimately, though, I think it’s all meant to be great, big monkey’s paw. Yes, your dreams come true, but there’s a cost. I mean, neither one were prepared for his success, and it 100% wasn’t what Cathy signed up for when they initially got together. She absolutely has every right to not want to go to these parties. Again, this is a real, adult conversation they needed to have. Instead, they just let it fester. Really, this is how it should have gone down: “My job requires I go to these parties.” “I don’t like going to them.” ”But they’re really important.” ”Then maybe we shouldn’t be together.” ”Maybe you’re right...” Unfortunately, most people struggle with that type of open communication. I think the movie is very relatable in that regard. And I want to be clear, I don’t think they’re equally at fault. I also disagree that was the movie’s intention. It begins and ends with Sad Cathy. She’s absolutely who we are meant to sympathize with. It’s pretty clear she’s the wronged party. Jamie is absolutely a dick and he does some pretty unforgivable shit. I’m not excusing him. Nor am I saying I like him. I’m just saying that while I completely get where she’s coming from, I get where he’s coming from too.

Yes, but she also has an entire Skype song to him about how much she hates Ohio. They discuss it. Again, it all comes down to communication. It’s entirely possible he doesn’t really understand why she’d want him to be there. From what I’ve gathered, she always dismissed Ohio as some kind of embarrassing joke. She’s made it seem unimportant to her so he doesn’t recognize why it should be important to him. It’s like she’s working some shitty job beneath her. On the one hand she’s humiliated by it, but on the other hand, she really wants him there to support her. She needs to tell him exactly why it’s important for him to be there, and in turn, he needs to tell her exactly why he needs her to be at those parties. Going back to Taylor’s previous post, we get that she gains comfort from his smile, but what if he’s only smiling because she’s there? No he can’t spend the whole evening in a corner with her, but maybe him being able to look up and see her there makes him feel good and gives him the confidence he needs to navigate the insane situation he’s found himself in.

You wrote this as I was writing my response. I agree, but I think both of them change. I don’t really think she would be content to just wait for him to smile at her forever. If that’s all it was, over the course of, say, 50 years, I sincerely doubt that would be enough. Without some serious communication, they were always doomed to end up as they did.

I think this was the not being “equal” post I was referring to. No, I get all that. I’m not saying he’s a saint. I’m saying that the trajectory of their careers has made it difficult for each of them to see where the other one is coming from. Yes, he was harsh as fuck during that conversation. My point is that I doubt we’re seeing the first time they’ve had this fight. This is the culmination of maybe a couple of years of self-centeredness (him) and quiet resentment (her). I see his point of view regarding the parties because these are industry events that people are putting on specifically to promote him and his work. In that situation, it is literally all about him - which is mentioned. It would be weird if he ignored all the people there to honor him and just hang out with his wife. These aren’t just “let’s get drunk and dance” affairs. I think he tells her at one point, they only last about two hours. It’s like, yeah, I get that it sucks for you, but I’d really like you to be there. Also, there’s nothing to say she HAS to sit at the bar, drink, and “wait for someone to talk to her” (her words). She could use that time to network for herself. The publishing world isn’t so far afield from acting that she can’t get out there and “meet someone who knows someone.” For someone to succeed as he does is ludicrously rare, but it does offer her an almost as rare opportunity. There’s nothing keeping her from exploiting his success for her own benefit except for her own insecurities. As far as the cheating stuff...of course I don’t have an excuse for it. Not for acting on it anyway. He’s absolutely wrong to do it - which he readily admits. I disagree that he would have always done it regardless of success, otherwise he wouldn’t be begging her to go to all these parties with him. I think we can all agree that it’s probably much easier to cheat if your SO isn’t 10 feet away from you. He’d just Be like, “Cool, enjoy your night!” As CakeBug said a couple of pages ago, starting the movie with Anna Kendrick weeping and saying how badly she’s hurting already predisposes the audience to side with her. And the temptation song doesn’t do him any favors. Personally, I would prefer that number be removed as I don’t think it really adds anything more than further convince the audience that he’s a sleazebag which...is kind of whatever. I think the reveal would have been far more shocking if that song wasn’t there. Otherwise, you just get the impression of “he’s a dick and he’s always been a dick” and I don’t really feel the drama or tragedy in that. Ultimately, as I said earlier, the central issue, for me anyway, and what I feel like the intention is, “Whatever your level of success, it sucks if your SO doesn’t support you.” Should he have gone to her Ohio plays? Absolutely. Yes. Should she have gone to his parties? Absolutely. Yes. Whether you’re up for a Pulitzer Peace Prize or wining a local hot dog eating contest, does it hurt like ass when your SO doesn’t seem to be supporting your success because they’re wrapped up in their own bullshit? Yesolutely! And I say “seem” because that’s how each of them feel. If you were to ask either of them, they would probably both tell you that they were nothing but supportive while the other one was only ever thinking of themselves. Again, I think the problem is partly due to the fact that the Musical goes out of its way to introduce Jamie as the villain, but I think we are also predisposed to minimalize people’s emotional distress if we view them as “successful.” How many times do we here celebrities bitch about something or other and we dismiss it as “Whatever, you’re a millionaire.” Just because he’s a successful author, doesn’t mean Jamie’s sense of abandonment hurts any less than Cathy’s.

Is this movie “bop?” We watched:

Another thing I really liked was how for both of them it came down to “you’re not supporting me.” From his perspective, he’s thinking “I’ve got obligations, and you hate Ohio and these people anyway, so what’s the big deal if I miss this performance?” And for her it’s, “You’ve already achieved your dream, and it’s the same twenty people you don’t really like anyway, so what’s the big deal if you miss this one party?” It’s not like either of them are wrong, but they’re not right either.