Oz the Great and Powerful

[Skeevins 322]

 

But that wasn't true at the time. He had literally just met Glinda, and was there to KILL her at the urging of the Wicked Witch of the East. She deliberately misleads Mila by implying he is there to romance Glinda which was factually untrue. And she conjures a music box to fool her into thinking he had also romanced her. At that point, he had only done that with Mila's witch. So yes, he's involved, and he's a jerk, but the Wicked Witch of the East manipulates her sister because she wants to rule. She is the one that is directly responsible for what happens, because she twists the situation to her advantage. At the point that Mila turns evil, Oscar hasn't actually done anything.

 

Except for convincing an emotionally damaged woman that he loves her when he really doesn't. Which was what ultimately broke her heart. It would have happened regardless of the music box and regardless of Glinda, because he genuinely was not interested in her, and they were not involved in the slightest.

 

 

The Good Witch of the North initially assumes Dorothy is a witch because she falls out of the sky and kills The Wicked Witch of the East, which was something she had not been able to do (being less powerful than Glinda). It's actually a pretty reasonable assumption under the circumstances, and certainly does not portray her as gullible or stupid.

 

The wizard also fell out of the sky and even shot "fireballs" at one point. If it wasn't gullible to assume Dorothy was a witch, how is it gullible to believe that someone who actually has some skill at pretending to be a wizard was a wizard? It's either both or nothing. In my opinion, they were both pretty gullible. The witch of the North was also clearly duped by the wizard's humbug magic in the books, since she is the one who sends Dorothy to find him in the first place. She even builds him up as someone who is not only skilled in magic, but someone who can grant wishes.

 

It's also implied in the books that Glinda cannot or will not kill,

 

That was also mentioned in "Oz the Great and Powerful;" but this excuse was kind of destroyed when Baum retconned things so that everyone in Oz is effectively immortal, and can't be killed anyway.

 

and that part of the reason she was holding off doing anything about the other witches was because she was trying to locate Ozma. She also did drive out the Wicked Witch of the South from Quadling Country, and she did that before the Wizard even arrived.

 

We don't yet know that Ozma doesn't exist in the movie universe, but Glinda is clearly shown to be the ruler of the Quadlings in the movie as well. She's got her own kingdom to take care of in the bubble.

 

Sorry, but the witches in the books are absolutely not the Golly-Gee Dumb Dumbs portrayed in this movie.

 

The wicked witches absolutely were. The witch of the West especially. They were villains, and were frequently shown to be comical in their behavior (lest we forget, the 2nd Oz book included a scene where an army of suffragettes took over the Emerald City and the Tin Woodman scares them away with a mouse long enough for the heroes to escape). And along with the witch of the North, they were all duped by the wizard's tricks in the books. It's problematic from a feminist perspective, absolutely, but that much is not the movie's invention. Glinda is not portrayed to be extremely naive in the movies or the books, but her greatest problem is that she is not very proactive. Just to clarify how non-proactive she was in the Baum books- her most prized possession was the magical Book of Records. It told her everything that happened when it happened. So theoretically, she could have intervened at any point to prevent any number of calamities and misadventures- it just wasn't her style. She preferred to sit back and let other people handle things on their own.

 

 

We've kind of gone off on a side tangent here, but my original complaint was that they took a series that had very feminist/female-positive elements with traditionally female protagonists and turned it into a story about a dude that makes his way through life swindling ladies and breaking their hearts, and he doesn't even appear to really learn or grow as a result of his adventures. Adding to that, they make a man the solution to all of the witches problems, despite the fact that they are all more powerful than him. It just struck me as kind of an unfortunate decision.

 

It is an unfortunate decision, for sure. But everything that you mention apart from the lechery is something that the Wizard actually did in the books. Baum wrote that the wizard overcame all of these more powerful women by trickery. And we know he doesn't grow as a person, because he does the same thing to Dorothy when she arrives there. He maintains his shtick until he is revealed as a fraud. The only thing that separates the books from the movies on that front is that Baum never intended for that information to be its own story. I agree that the movie invents a lot of sexist stuff all its own, but like I said, that has more to do with the way the Wizard treats women and the way they continuously fall all over him. That afore-mentioned lechery.

[seanotron 2307]

Steve, I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this, so I think I'll just leave it at agree to disagree.

[therealjayknox 26]

Saw it last week and liked it.

Did not love it.

I could see how the story or genre was unlikable or maybe you don't really like James Franco (I barely do) but I can't say there was any truly bad acting.

Well written overall, well shot, for the most part the CGI and special effects were well done.

 

Sure, I could think of some problems and understand some complaints but this is definitely not an HDTGM kind of film. I could also think of some pretty decent and clever parts.

[choochoo_the_wonder_slut 740]

Red Letter Media recently ran through this one if anyone hasn't seen. By the way I'd love if they got Mike and Jay to guest on hdtgm someday.

 

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-oz-the-great-and-powerful-and-return-to-oz/

[Lando 2019]

I just watched this with my wife and all I have to say is FUCK THIS MOVIE!!! Good lord I would say this should have been called The Wizard of Oz: Phantom Menace, but that would be an insult to Jar-Jar Binks.

[Lando 2019]

 

The witch of the West scarred her face by the tears the Wizard caused her to cry, so she was deformed well before the apple.

 

The stuff with the wizard trumping the witches is kind of ingrained into the story anyway, though. No matter what angle the movie took, it would have involved three powerful women being duped by a male con artist, and that was Baum's original vision of events. The "prophesy" junk I think was actually an unsuccessful attempt to make the witches seem less stupid in comparison. If you didn't have that, it would have been three supremely powerful beings simply being chased away by card tricks and illusions. The reason why it was unsuccessful, however, is that it traded a little stupidity for a lot of superstition. And all their stupidity and superstition definitely carries over into the traditional Wizard of Oz story as we know it as well. All 3 of these characters are either easily dispatched or swayed by superstition when Dorothy gets there. They're also not doing much to actively improve their world or get rid of the Wizard, either. Not a lot of people know this, but not only is the original Witch of the West vulnerable to water...she is scared of the dark. Dorothy takes off the slippers to go to sleep, but the witch is too frightened of the dark to go and get them at that time. So while the Raimi movie is undeniably sexist, it's definitely in keeping with Baum's vision to portray the witches of Oz as lazy, superstitious, and gullible.

 

What made the movie so problematic wasn't so much the prophesy as the way the Wizard treated women, and the way women treated him in return. Also, the idea that falling in love will turn a woman evil and possessive.

 

I don't know if you're aware, but Baum's book was an allegory for a bi-metallic monetary standard. At the time he wrote it we were on the gold standard, and as a result there was slight deflation, which some believed was the cause of economic woes. At the time they thought that by adding silver-backed money to the economy they could improve the state of the economy. The symbolism is:

OZ -> Ounces

The Yellow Brick Rd. -> The Gold Standard

The Silver slippers (in the book they're silver, not ruby) -> Silver standard

The tin man -> Industrial workers

The scarecrow -> The agricultural worker

The cowardly lion -> William Jennings Bryan (who was also the lawyer who argued in favor of teaching creationism in the Scopes Monkey trial and thinly veiled as the prosecutor in Inherit the Wind)

Dorothy -> The common person

[seanotron 2307]

The Gold Standard Interpretation didn't pop up until Baum was long dead (in an article in the 1960s), and he never discussed any such intentions in his work while he was alive.

[Lando 2019]

Next you're gonna tell me Dark Side of the Moon isn't supposed to sync up with the movie.

 

Nah, I can see that. I can see someone coming up with an interpretation after the fact that makes a lot of sense.

[denimgremlin 1179]

I don't know if you're aware, but Baum's book was an allegory for Game of Thrones. At the time he wrote it King Joffery cut off Ned Stark's head, and as a result there was slight rebellion, which some believed was the cause of the War of the Five Kings. At the time they thought that by adding a King in the North they could improve the state of the 7 Kingdoms. The symbolism is:

 

OZ -> WesterOZ

The Yellow Brick Rd. -> The Kingsroad

The Silver slippers (in the book they're silver, not ruby) -> The Iron Throne

The tin man -> the heartless, metal-clad knights of Westeros

The scarecrow -> the well intention but ineffective Nights Watch

The cowardly lion -> the boasting, yet ultimately cowardly House Lannister

Dorothy -> the children of House Stark, lost in a strange, hostile world, perpetually yearning for home

Toto - direwolves

[jarrycanada 2483]

I sorta like this movie, i enjoyed it, I don't think it will ever be a classic film but and I am not sure I will ever rewatch it but i enjoyed it for what it was.