Episode 136 — Black Metal

[wakefresh 689]

This is a podcast with a host who regularly says stuff like "White people are the worst" and downplays bigotry, misogyny and homophobia is it comes from any other than white people. When this is pointed out or argued against on this forum, Shariq interprets the poster as someone who wants POC to shut up and "get over it," which is either some kind zealotry-induced dislexia or straight up trolling.

 

Two things:

 

1) In thread you're talking about, you originally argued that a rapper saying something homophobic was way worse than a poor white guy. My counter to that was if poor white people didn't have a voice in this country, there would be no Tea Party Caucus in Congress right now, and in fact, those poor white people are voting in laws that are way more homophobic than a lyric.

 

2) When he says things like this, he is obviously joking, as seen by the many white guests he has on his show.

[wakefresh 689]

I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm saying that you are addressing a specific set of people, not white people in their entirety. If you were only saying that there are racist hypocrites in the world, I wouldn't argue with you. But that's not what you did. You were either addressing specific individuals or lumping the people who posted on this thread with all racist hypocrites.

 

Earwolf posters and racist hypocrites are not an mutually exclusive group. Have you looked at any of the other threads in this forum? Have you witnessed people deny/minimize/ignore any racial implications of a situation? If the answer is yes, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. In the same way, you don't have to individually pick out and name every racist black metal person when I'm talking about racism in that scene, I don't have to individually pick out and name every single wack ass Earwolf poster.

[JamesCrackCorn 33]

 

 

Earwolf posters and racist hypocrites are not an mutually exclusive group. Have you looked at any of the other threads in this forum? Have you witnessed people deny/minimize/ignore any racial implications of a situation? If the answer is yes, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. In the same way, you don't have to individually pick out and name every racist black metal person when I'm talking about racism in that scene, I don't have to individually pick out and name every single wack ass Earwolf poster.

 

I see a difference between identifying and classifying every black metal fan as a racist or not and identifying the some 6 people who posted on this thread that you insulted. I believe we have reached in impasse.

[Joshie 125]

So, here's the thing with ep and this why all of you are so butthurt over it. Andrew is using the same standard that the mainstream culture judges other minorities by. Other minorities are ROUTINELY grouped together and held responsible for actions that they didn't commit. Every Muslim has a target on their back because of what a few people did. Every black person has a target on their back because of the actions of a few. Someone earlier made an analogy to people stereotyping gangsta rap, WHICH THEY ALREADY DO. Trayvon Martin's character was assasinated because he wore baggy jeans and listened to hip-hop. Apparently, this was enough for a LARGE segment of the population to feel that he was up to no good anyway and that Zimmerman did the world a favor by killing him. But what is funny, is that when the standard is applied to you, or to something that you like, then all of a sudden it becomes unfair. Then all of a sudden, the common sense saying, "one bad apple spoils the bunch," and "you are the company you keep" don't have any meaning. I'm not buying it and I'll tell you why.

 

Every time a person of color says something is racist, there are always a large number of white people that will attempt to dissuade them from their position. They say things like "its in your head," "no one thinks like that," "you're being too sensitive," blah, blah, blah. But how can you, any of you who posted on this board, say that when Andrew is giving you the same mainstream treatment that has been given to minorities for decades? Its not really congruent, ya see? You can't really go around trying to downplay racism while at the same time bristling when those racist societal standards are turned on you.

 

I call out stupid standards applied unequally or unjustly to whomever, I don't need someone saying don't associate with people in a certain music scene when that person isn't promoting injustice themselves. If you want to say don't associate with racists that listen to racist metal, and attack the content, that is a fair reciprocal of the standard that has been promoted for so many years: white racists having to face marginalization themselves. When that standard is applied too broadly (to metal listeners not engaged in injustices or promoting racist music) it isn't fair and reciprocal and there's no poetic justice to it, just more broad stupid uneducated unsubtle stereotyping of people because you don't want to do the research, and regardless of what race, origin, creed, etc. choosing to remain ignorant and paint with broad brushes is unacceptable

[Hyde Parker 9]

That's impossible, because you don't find those things to be racist, and you would be the first to say someone is being "overly sensitive and "can't take a joke" if they called people on some of the shit that goes on around here. Don't trot it out now as way of making a point for your silly argument.

 

Taking someone's own line of reasoning to its natural conclusion in order to highlight inconsistencies within it is an old trick of rhetoric. Of course, so is playing oblivious to make other people look like assholes.

 

So, here's the thing with ep and this why all of you are so butthurt over it. Andrew is using the same standard that the mainstream culture judges other minorities by. Other minorities are ROUTINELY grouped together and held responsible for actions that they didn't commit. Every Muslim has a target on their back because of what a few people did. Every black person has a target on their back because of the actions of a few. Someone earlier made an analogy to people stereotyping gangsta rap, WHICH THEY ALREADY DO. Trayvon Martin's character was assasinated because he wore baggy jeans and listened to hip-hop. Apparently, this was enough for a LARGE segment of the population to feel that he was up to no good anyway and that Zimmerman did the world a favor by killing him.

 

Dude, it's times like these where you seem genuinely imbalanced - If not for the fact you're convinced millions of your fellow countrymen are literally out to kill you then because you think something like this obtains in a non-dialectic argument.

 

But what is funny, is that when the standard is applied to you, or to something that you like, then all of a sudden it becomes unfair. Then all of a sudden, the common sense saying, "one bad apple spoils the bunch," and "you are the company you keep" don't have any meaning. I'm not buying it and I'll tell you why.

 

 

Every time a person of color says something is racist, there are always a large number of white people that will attempt to dissuade them from their position. They say things like "its in your head," "no one thinks like that," "you're being too sensitive," blah, blah, blah. But how can you, any of you who posted on this board, say that when Andrew is giving you the same mainstream treatment that has been given to minorities for decades? Its not really congruent, ya see? You can't really go around trying to downplay racism while at the same time bristling when those racist societal standards are turned on you.

 

White people question things because they aren't accustomed to discussing them in entirely credulous, experiential terms. If you don't think they should in discussions with you then, as I've said before, you should make clear your biases and first principles.

 

No, I have one argument that makes perfect sense. People who try to silence/derail/minimize others for speaking out about racism and racist stereotypes don't get to complain when the power of stereotyping is turned on them.

Downplaying or questioning the fact of racism in specific instances only to bring it up and point it out in others isn't inconsistent unless every perceived instance of racism is indistinguishable in terms of validity and gravity. This attitude establishes a dangerous all or nothing dichotomy that degrades discussion into a one-way sounding board for grievance. If that's what you want, fine. Just say so.

[Podus 108]

Shariq, most of the posters on this topic are just saying that it's an awefully large brush to say don't be friends with someone just because a small percentage of the fans are idiots.

[cucurbit 0]

 

It is so much better if they just accept things the way the are and downplay the effects of racism in every facet of their life.

 

Here's the thing, though: this podcast does nothing of the sort, and your politics are all kinds of crazy if you think that's what's happening here. It's left-liberal hipsters patting themselves on the back for calling other people out on their privilege or whatever. Practically every other episode is prefaced with some variation of "look, I didn't do any research coming into today's topic, I'm just going on these vague intuitions that are entirely a product of the petty-bourgeois milieu I hang around."

 

By the way, the whole premise of your argument in this thread so far has been one huge tu quoque. If racists are all about stereotyping and hasty generalizations, how does it make any kind of sense to flip that around, as if that were an effective tactic... aside from, you know, the standpoint of smugly patting oneself on the back?

[president cage 13]

 

Two things:

 

1) In thread you're talking about, you originally argued that a rapper saying something homophobic was way worse than a poor white guy. My counter to that was if poor white people didn't have a voice in this country, there would be no Tea Party Caucus in Congress right now, and in fact, those poor white people are voting in laws that are way more homophobic than a lyric.

 

2) When he says things like this, he is obviously joking, as seen by the many white guests he has on his show.

 

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You cannot read. I NEVER said that it was "way worse" for a black rapper to say something bigoted. I was responding to the idea that it was always more harmful for any white person to say something bigoted than a rapper who had legions of fans and much more influence. The "way worse" thing came from Ti.

 

Can't wait for your bullshit response.

[wakefresh 689]

 

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You cannot read. I NEVER said that it was "way worse" for a black rapper to say something bigoted. I was responding to the idea that it was always more harmful for any white person to say something bigoted than a rapper who had legions of fans and much more influence. The "way worse" thing came from Ti.

 

Can't wait for your bullshit response.

 

 

This is a classic whitesplaining/mansplaing move. They get hung up on the fact that you didn't use the EXACT SAME WORDS that they did when summarizing their crazy point of view. I'm not falling into that shit. If you don't know how summaries work, blame your elementary school teachers.

[president cage 13]

 

 

This is a classic whitesplaining/mansplaing move. They get hung up on the fact that you didn't use the EXACT SAME WORDS that they did when summarizing their crazy point of view. I'm not falling into that shit. If you don't know how summaries work, blame your elementary school teachers.

 

Thanks for batshitsplaining that to me.

 

Summaries don't usually reverse meanings. Only the disingenuous ones do. You are a disingenuous person and I say good day to you forever.

[choochoo_the_wonder_slut 740]

What is whitesplaining/mansplaining?

[president cage 13]

Don't worry your pretty little head about that.

[Hyde Parker 9]

What is whitesplaining/mansplaining?

A series of embarrassing neologisms coined on tumblr.

[wakefresh 689]

 

Thanks for batshitsplaining that to me.

 

Summaries don't usually reverse meanings. Only the disingenuous ones do. You are a disingenuous person and I say good day to you forever.

 

I understood you perfectly well. You got your diapers in a bunch because I didn't use the exact same phrasing as you did when summarizing. Don't let these metalheads gas you up; you were wrong then, like you are wrong now.

[wakefresh 689]

What is whitesplaining/mansplaining?

 

 

It's what douchenozzles do when someone confronts them about racism or sexism.

[Hyde Parker 9]

 

 

It's what douchenozzles do when someone confronts them about racism or sexism.

I can barely even believe you're a real person.

[choochoo_the_wonder_slut 740]

It's what douchenozzles do when someone confronts them about racism or sexism.

 

Isn't whitesplaining a racist term in itself?

[Hyde Parker 9]

 

Isn't whitesplaining a racist term in itself?

Requesting information of ST will result in two things: 1 ) He is going to imply (and by "imply" I mean "state") that you are a literal Klansman, and 2 ) He is going to wonder why you're persisting in this discussion when you have his unimpeachable Person Of Color perceptions to rely upon in determining whether something is racially correct or not.

 

Just google "white privilege."

[wakefresh 689]

 

Here's the thing, though: this podcast does nothing of the sort, and your politics are all kinds of crazy if you think that's what's happening here. It's left-liberal hipsters patting themselves on the back for calling other people out on their privilege or whatever. Practically every other episode is prefaced with some variation of "look, I didn't do any research coming into today's topic, I'm just going on these vague intuitions that are entirely a product of the petty-bourgeois milieu I hang around."

 

By the way, the whole premise of your argument in this thread so far has been one huge tu quoque. If racists are all about stereotyping and hasty generalizations, how does it make any kind of sense to flip that around, as if that were an effective tactic... aside from, you know, the standpoint of smugly patting oneself on the back?

 

 

Your comment is why I love coming to Earwolf, and why I love that this show in particular is on Earwolf. So, let's break down the stupid ideas you have roaming in your post.

 

 

It's left-liberal hipsters patting themselves on the back for calling other people out on their privilege or whatever.

 

The podcast is a starting point for discussions about racism, which all too often are ignored by "left-liberal hipsters", right wing conservatives, and oblivious white folks. Ignoring minorities is something that white folks of any political stripes and can get behind.

 

Practically every other episode is prefaced with some variation of "look, I didn't do any research coming into today's topic, I'm just going on these vague intuitions that are entirely a product of the petty-bourgeois milieu I hang around."

 

What research is suitable for telling white people is not okay for them to use the n-word? What academic study should Andrew cite when saying that blackface is not cool? If the life experience of being a minority in a racist society is enough to answer those questions, why does he need copious amounts of research for others? Is it because he can't name the bass player in band Skullfuckery? Who gives a shit when he's talking about that scene as a whole? People can't tell me the difference in compiling bytecode on an ARM processor as opposed to x86, but people still have opinions about computers, nevertheless.

 

By the way, the whole premise of your argument in this thread so far has been one huge tu quoque. If racists are all about stereotyping and hasty generalizations, how does it make any kind of sense to flip that around, as if that were an effective tactic... aside from, you know, the standpoint of smugly patting oneself on the back?

 

I'm not flipping anything around; I'm explaining the reason why you all are so butthurt by this ep. Does it suck to be generalized in a negative way, you bet! But that's been the experience of minorities in this country since it began. You all just got a little taste of it thrown your way. If you don't like it, then maybe next time a PoC shares a story of a racist experience they had, don't get all shitty towards them and try to make it seem like this "racism" stuff is all in their head. But by the responses, I doubt that any of you will do that and you will continue give fuck all about anything that happens to PoC in this country or around the world.

[Hyde Parker 9]

It's not even a valid comparison. Ti is demonstrably wrong about something and somehow that's exactly the same as wondering whether there's more than one reason some guy in a cowboy hat looked at you funny.

[JamesCrackCorn 33]

 

 

I'm not flipping anything around; I'm explaining the reason why you all are so butthurt by this ep. Does it suck to be generalized in a negative way, you bet! But that's been the experience of minorities in this country since it began. You all just got a little taste of it thrown your way. If you don't like it, then maybe next time a PoC shares a story of a racist experience they had, don't get all shitty towards them and try to make it seem like this "racism" stuff is all in their head. But by the responses, I doubt that any of you will do that and you will continue give fuck all about anything that happens to PoC in this country or around the world.

 

When you say "you all," are you referring to everybody who posted on this thread? If so, are you accusing me as an individual, to have told a person belonging to a minority group that racism is only in his or her head?

 

Just to avoid any accusations of whitesplaining, you should know that I am not white. Though I am a man so I think I am capable of mansplaining. I'm also not sure I understand what those terms mean.

[wakefresh 689]

Everybody! Hyde took time out from his daily talks with old school Boston racist to grace us with his presence. Give it up for the man, please.

 

Taking someone's own line of reasoning to its natural conclusion in order to highlight inconsistencies within it is an old trick of rhetoric.

 

Someone (or a group of people) talking out of both sides of their mouth about an issue is also an old trick that assholes employ. Case in point, the Alien and Sedition Acts.

 

Dude, it's times like these where you seem genuinely imbalanced - If not for the fact you're convinced millions of your fellow countrymen are literally out to kill you then because you think something like this obtains in a non-dialectic argument.

 

This is where I know you're full of shit. Major news channel, Fox News, were bashing Trayvon Martin, a dead kid, because he smoked pot one time. Major news personalities (Sean Hannity) were insinuating that he had to be up to something, so it was probably a good thing that he was shot. Get one of those old school Boston racists you chat with to log you into his account on the Fox News forums. Oh yeah, the viewers were saying much, much worse. Hell, people were even selling Travyon Martin shooting targets. Imagine that. Making a shooting target out of the image of a child that died by the gun. But I'm crazy for thinking that my fellow countrymen would do violence upon me. Yeah, you can't possibly belief a word of what you wrote there. You just can't .

 

White people question things because they aren't accustomed to discussing them in entirely credulous, experiential terms. If you don't think they should in discussions with you then, as I've said before, you should make clear your biases and first principles.

 

LOL, white people question racism because they don't want to face up to the privilege they get just from their skin. Just like men don't want to talk about sexism because of the privilege they get from having a pair of balls. You're so damned ridiculous, trying to make every white person into a rational, truth-seeking individual. Please, if not all white people are racists, then let's not paint a brush that makes them all clones of Plato, haha.

 

Downplaying or questioning the fact of racism in specific instances only to bring it up and point it out in others isn't inconsistent unless every perceived instance of racism is indistinguishable in terms of validity and gravity. This attitude establishes a dangerous all or nothing dichotomy that degrades discussion into a one-way sounding board for grievance. If that's what you want, fine. Just say so.

 

Oh, yes. Please Hyde, tell me what evidence, what authority, do minorities have to present/invoke for white people to take their claim of racial injustice seriously? I mean, what is this "thing" that will prove once and for all that shit is racist? Because, I'll tell ya what, decades of historical data don't mean shit to most white people. They say, "get over it" or "stop living in the past." Hell, decades of established social norms don't mean shit or you wouldn't see any blackface parties or blackface Halloween costumes. You let me know what that is, buddy, cause I have some folks interested.

 

In terms of gravity, Andrew calling black metal fans racist doesn't even make the priority list. So, why are you so butthurt?

[wakefresh 689]

Requesting information of ST will result in two things: 1 ) He is going to imply (and by "imply" I mean "state") that you are a literal Klansman, and 2 ) He is going to wonder why you're persisting in this discussion when you have his unimpeachable Person Of Color perceptions to rely upon in determining whether something is racially correct or not. Just google "white privilege."

 

Aren't you the one that told me to get my daishiki untwisted about the Onion calling a little girl a cunt?

[wakefresh 689]

 

When you say "you all," are you referring to everybody who posted on this thread? If so, are you accusing me as an individual, to have told a person belonging to a minority group that racism is only in his or her head?

 

Just to avoid any accusations of whitesplaining, you should know that I am not white. Though I am a man so I think I am capable of mansplaining. I'm also not sure I understand what those terms mean.

 

 

When you say "you all," are you referring to everybody who posted on this thread? If so, are you accusing me as an individual, to have told a person belonging to a minority group that racism is only in his or her head?

 

Just to avoid any accusations of whitesplaining, you should know that I am not white. Though I am a man so I think I am capable of mansplaining. I'm also not sure I understand what those terms mean.

 

 

Yeah, "you all" refers to all the butthurt black metal fans. If you include yourself in this group, that means you. The last part was meant as a future advice when dealing with PoC.

[ocean_machine 56]

Admittedly, no one should be listening to metal after he turns fifteen,

 

What an enlightened opinion. I'll bet you know so much about the genre.