identifying with an opposite gender lead

[ZZZ 63]

I think this got brought up on a previous episode Amy (to the best of my memory) mentioned in passing that girls/women often fit themselves into identifying with male protagonists because they are so prevalent in our stories. Comparatively men/boys sometimes find it hard to identify with the story of a female lead character. I hear this come up a lot in context with the "boy" episodes where the movies are exploring themes of masculinity (400 blows, Everybody Wants Some, ect) Curious to hear anyone's thoughts, it seems relevant to the discussion on KiKi as there are pretty strong differences between the people who identify with her story and people who don't (not that necessarily follows gender lines, just making an observation).

[nickperkins 52]

I could totally identify with Kiki; going out on your own is scary at any age, regardless of gender. Also, I don't think Kiki's Delivery Service was particularly trying to attempt any exploration of femininity (not that I noticed, anyway).

[ZZZ 63]

I think it deviated into the realm. A lot of her finding her identity and establishing her role with her peers and community felt specific to female experience. I think it was handled in a way that made it feel universal so that it could be identifiable to male viewers but I think the story has a tone that really emphasizes Kiki balancing emerging femininity with childhood sensibility.

[Threshold 93]

I identified with Kiki- and also understood both sides of Kiki intensely disliking that boy who's clearly into her. I feel like I've experienced and understood both sides of those in my childhood.

 

And yes completely agree with Amy, Men have been so prevalent in art and culture since the dawn of time, so naturally every audience member has no problem with it.

 

RE Men connecting with women- to quote George RR Martin: "You know, I've always considered women to be people".

I think it's more of an issue of representation. Studios need to up their game, and hopefully- I do think the new Star Wars films AND Captain Marvel (Hopefully) should create a push for the mainstream films to create a standard for everyone to follow.

[Impudent Lackwit 15]

To me, it largely comes down to living in a society that devalues the feminine. To continue the GAME OF THRONES example, nobody has any problem saying "FUCK YEAH BRIENNE!" but I can recall a lot of Sansa hate early in the show's run. Only as of late that she has become more brutal and hard have people been giving her the HBIC label.

 

Girlishness, fashion, traditional femininity, makeup, clothes, liking cute boys, etc. etc. This is all treated as DUMB by society at large so why should men even BOTHER with shit like SEX IN THE CITY or GILMORE GIRLS? It's all dumb crap for girls, right?

 

Especially in the realm of "credible" cinema this creates a nasty feedback loop where only masculine art is seen to have value, ergo only men are capable of creating real art. This is why the glass ceiling often seems hardest to break in nominally "enlightened" circles of society - a lot of the people making the decisions about what is worth people's time and attention don't even realize what they're doing.

[ZZZ 63]

I think that is why I like the simplicity of Kiki so much. It celebrates the tiny things that often get excluded when celebrating strong female characters. This forum is composed of really intelligent individuals so if the gap exists it seems to be more subconscious than conscious. I do agree that it is definitely an issue of representation one that seems to be improving with things like the above mentioned movie, Mad Max and, I think Everly handled the subject really well also

[ManishMathur 33]

To me, it largely comes down to living in a society that devalues the feminine. To continue the GAME OF THRONES example, nobody has any problem saying "FUCK YEAH BRIENNE!" but I can recall a lot of Sansa hate early in the show's run. Only as of late that she has become more brutal and hard have people been giving her the HBIC label.

 

society devalues femininity so much. People were too quick to hate Sansa, even though she was acting how she was supposed to act and over valued Arya who shunned femininity and exhibited masculine traits and mocked women like Sansa.

[RobertBoberts 62]

I liked Frances Ha a lot and could identify with her in some way. But then maybe I'm partly identitying with the men who interact with her. I think it's why a lot of romantic comedies center on the male character. They figure it gets both men and women to view it, at least as a date movie, as opposed to films like Sex in the City.

[Head Spin 112]

 

society devalues femininity so much. People were too quick to hate Sansa, even though she was acting how she was supposed to act and over valued Arya who shunned femininity and exhibited masculine traits and mocked women like Sansa.

 

Also I think people have a hard time empathizing with teenage characters, especially teenage girls. Granted, a lot of times in TV and film teenagers can be the worst written and most irritating agents. But in Game of Thrones, for example, Sansa and even Tommen, recently, got a lot of hate from fans unfairly. They were both sheltered rich teenagers, and both were completely exploited by more mature and powerful political forces. You get the feeling that people write teenagers off just for not having grown up yet.

 

I didn't feel like Sansa was naive or irresponsible in early seasons past her age and experience, and the more she's grown and lived in the world the more impressive a character she's become. Tommen, too, was a sweet kid who mostly tried to do right by his conscience, his religion, and his elders. He wasn't savvy enough to realize that his advisors were manipulating him to awful ends, and the realization of what he had been compelled to allow destroyed him.

 

Maybe tangential to the discussion, but I think in fiction, and probably in life, people write others off instead of allowing them to be imperfect as they mature.

[CarlosFerreira 20]

It's an interesting topic. Some time ago I hosted a debate on whether or not women were misrepresented or under-represented in popular culture. Crucially, because this was a group of high school students, we divided the group in half and pre-assigned them a position to defend. What I remember most vividly was that the young women group assigned the 'women are not misrepresented or under-represented in popular culture' position found it relatively easy to come up with episodic arguments ('look at Black Widow! She kicks bottom with the best of them!'), but could not identify with the 'strong women'. They didn't find the Michelle Rodriguez-type characters appealing, and they preferred Scarlett Johansson in Lost in Translation than in the Marvel movies.

 

So there is clearly an issue with identification. This brings me to one of my favourite films of late: the female officer played by Emily Blunt in Sicario. I entirely identified with her in the film, with her sense of confusion and disorientation throughout, with her desire to do the right thing, but also to find some escape for the tension... and when the scene of violence in the context of sex happened, it really hit me. Hard. So I think it is perfectly possible to identify with a character of the opposite gender; but at the same time it is obvious we need better written characters, constructed as well-rounded individuals.

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

I'll have to be honest, I can't think of too many films where I did make that connection (with an opposite gender lead). I don't know what this says about me, probably nothing good, but in my defense I don't think I connect with a lot of male leads, either. Off the top of my head, I can think of Marjane in Persepolis and Ronna in Go.

[FredrickMaxwell 2]

For me, I can say I don't have too much of an issue identifying with a female lead. I know that in every game that allows me to choose my gender, I always choose a woman since it's an experience I don't commonly get. As far as films go, one of my favorites is The Devil Wears Prada.