Episode 177 — Black Students Acting Out

[JulyDiaz 2797]

Today Andrew & Noah Garfinkel discuss a teacher’s theory that white teachers take it too easy on black students who act out because they are afraid of being labeled as racists. Give us your thoughts Sociologists and don’t forget to keep leaving us messages by calling (323) 389-RACE.

[dlo burns 129]

I would say the opposite problem is true; the black kid automatically did it.

[wakefresh 689]

I would say the opposite problem is true; the black kid automatically did it.

 

 

Just to back dlo burns on this point. I don't think white teachers let being labelled a "racist" stop them from bringing the hammer on minority children.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/education/black-students-face-more-harsh-discipline-data-shows.html?_r=0

[ComedyGangBang 88]

 

 

Just to back dlo burns on this point. I don't think white teachers let being labelled a "racist" stop them from bringing the hammer on minority children.

 

 

I've noticed a pattern in your posts and I had to ask: you don't think very highly of white people as a group do you?

 

It's almost like you have a prejudiced view of white people based solely on their race........

 

That would be awful if it were true. I don't know if you are aware of this, but racism is a really terrible, abbhorrent and evil thing.

[wakefresh 689]

 

I've noticed a pattern in your posts and I had to ask: you don't think very highly of white people as a group do you?

 

It's almost like you have a prejudiced view of white people based solely on their race........

 

That would be awful if it were true. I don't know if you are aware of this, but racism is a really terrible, abbhorrent and evil thing.

 

No, I don't. But based on your posts, it seems that pointing out racist acts is being racist to white people. If that's the case, then you go might as well go post in the other forums because you're not going to learn anything here and everyone already knows your opinion -- its the same as the status quo.

[pbnews 93]

My ex-girlfriend is an inner-city junior high teacher, and talks about this ALL the time. White kids acting out get a million chances (especially from senior educators), whereas minorities are instantly kicked out of class/suspended/given up on.

 

She also complained that there was no respect or understanding for cultural differences by the mostly-white teaching staff (for example, the idea that louder, livelier conversation and "talking over" each other can be a cultural thing, and not necessarily a sign of a student being disrespectful or not caring).

 

The majority of people in education professions would likely consider themselves "liberal," but from the stories I've heard, there is apparently some underlying "expectation" that minority kids are bound for failure, which translates to a lack of patience with these students that contradicts the theory posited in this episode.

[imhatch 271]

 

I've noticed a pattern in your posts and I had to ask: you don't think very highly of white people as a group do you?

 

It's almost like you have a prejudiced view of white people based solely on their race........

 

That would be awful if it were true. I don't know if you are aware of this, but racism is a really terrible, abbhorrent and evil thing.

yeah and whats the deal with black history month why isnt there a white entertainment television month

[wo 265]

Is it OK for me to be racist toward people who use emoticons?

[Jengaman 6]

 

 

Just to back dlo burns on this point. I don't think white teachers let being labelled a "racist" stop them from bringing the hammer on minority children.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...shows.html?_r=0

 

It's always the white teachers that hate minorities huh.

This is why it sounds like you hate white people.

 

So yes pointing out racist things that some white teachers do and making generalizations about all white teachers makes you racist.

 

Yo! You're a racist.

[Hyde Parker 9]

 

 

Just to back dlo burns on this point. I don't think white teachers let being labelled a "racist" stop them from bringing the hammer on minority children.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...shows.html?_r=0

I really thought anyone who had even heard of this podcast had heard of this study (Please don't respond with snark to this, ST, I'm genuinely remarking on the cluelessness of "real racists" people who show up to discussions at least tangentially derived from academic discourses without any foreknowledge at all).

 

It's about as close as you get to a litmus test with regards to critical theory (yes, I'm using the term again). Either primary education is staffed significantly with crypto-racists (or individuals unknowingly acted upon by overwhelming and mostly invisible social forces) or black populations are subject to behavioral problems not seen as often in other ethnic cohorts.

 

Not commenting or arguing, just presenting a dichotomy to people who'll probably see this after the Besser debacle.

[action52 554]

I think another very plausible explanation is the self-fulfilling prophecy. Educators expect bad behavior out of black students, so they act in a way that promotes bad behavior. This can include giving disproportionately harsh punishments and causing resentment, as well as skewing the data in that direction. It also can include being "easier on" black students. Like, instead of correcting them and trying to teach them the proper way to behave, the teacher might just ignore problems from black students because they don't think disciplining them will do anything.

 

It's more subtle than you may think. I'm sure none of the people doing this think that they're ebing racist. And many of them might not even consciously be thinking of black students as worse than white students. But somewhere in their brain, they are biased to expect bad from behavior from black students more than white students. So when a black kid acts out they're more likely to see it as a sign that this is a bad kid overall.

 

I don't like the "cultural differences" explanation very much. I maen OK up to a point it might explain why they enter a classroom less inclined to sit still and listen, but I think it can lead to the attitude of overlooking problems and not trying to teach proper behavior that I mentioned earlier. Black children are just as capable of sitting still and listening as any other race, and if there is a problem you can usually tell by looking at other factors about the individual that are independent of race.

[sissylion 41]

Can it be made that every person is required to check a box that says "I understand that it is impossible to be racist toward white people" before posting anything on this forum? I feel like that would probably help discussion move along some. How much coding would that take?

[Hyde Parker 9]

No because then we'd be obnoxiously smug Tumblr drones. I mean if you want to villainize most of the country's population for existing that'd be fine but this is a podcast network and it isn't necessarily dedicated to your conceptions of social justice.

[Joshie 125]

.

[Hyde Parker 9]

it's not impossible to be racist toward white ppl so that would be a silly addition

bb-but i once heard a definition of racism on the internet that deliberately precluded racism against white people!

[wakefresh 689]

I really thought anyone who had even heard of this podcast had heard of this study (Please don't respond with snark to this, ST, I'm genuinely remarking on the cluelessness of "real racists" people who show up to discussions at least tangentially derived from academic discourses without any foreknowledge at all).

 

It's about as close as you get to a litmus test with regards to critical theory (yes, I'm using the term again). Either primary education is staffed significantly with crypto-racists (or individuals unknowingly acted upon by overwhelming and mostly invisible social forces) or black populations are subject to behavioral problems not seen as often in other ethnic cohorts.

 

Not commenting or arguing, just presenting a dichotomy to people who'll probably see this after the Besser debacle.

 

Primary is not staffed by crypto racists. It just proof that despite what deniers like you would have me to believe -- that racist practices only come from .0000000000001% of the white population -- that is a very widespread problem. Basically, education is staffed by people who are not going to give any breaks to white children, even for the same infractions. It is because the narrative of this country says that a white male's life is the most important thing on Earth and must be protected and nurtured. Meanwhile, the country says minority lives are not that important. That's why you can a random man gun down a black teen in Florida and everyone from the police to the district attorney all write it off. "He was probably up to no good anyway," they'd say. Where did those attitudes and assumptions come from? The media? Other white people? The racism fairy? All I know is that it exists and these are the manifestations of it.

[wakefresh 689]

No because then we'd be obnoxiously smug Tumblr drones. I mean if you want to villainize most of the country's population for existing that'd be fine but this is a podcast network and it isn't necessarily dedicated to your conceptions of social justice.

 

Villianizing large swaths of the country's population is what you're down with when you support the status quo, Hyde.

[wakefresh 689]

 

It's always the white teachers that hate minorities huh.

This is why it sounds like you hate white people.

 

So yes pointing out racist things that some white teachers do and making generalizations about all white teachers makes you racist.

 

Yo! You're a racist.

 

Also, when did I say ALL WHITE TEACHERS do X? I didn't. Hell, I didn't even imply it. I simply stated that the fear of being called a racist isn't going to stop white teachers from punishing black students and then gave a Department of Education study to back up what I said with real world examples.

 

Stop being so damned stupid.

[action52 554]

This isn't something that only white teachers do, either. Plenty of nonwhite teachers have the same biases. It benefits whites in the end, of course, but since it is so subtle that most people don't even realize their biases are race-based, plenty of people internalize them even when it is to their own detriment.

 

And just to head off the people who say OH LOOK BLACK PEOPLE DO IT TOO THAT MEANS IT'S EVERYBODY'S FAULT NOT JUST WHITE PEOPLE, no it isn't. If a car gets in an accident, you don't say the people riding in the passenger seats are equally responsible, do you? No, you blame the driver, just like we should blame the people running the country for its problems.

 

it's not impossible to be racist toward white ppl so that would be a silly addition

 

"Racism" generally implies that it is a part of systematic oppression in which the dominant race is keeping itself stronger than the other races. Since white people dominate the USA, it is therefore impossible for racism (in this sense) against white people to exist in the USA, or any other country run by white people.

 

Bigotry and prejudice against white people can and does exist, of course, but it doesn't do as much harm or injustice as true racism.

[sissylion 41]

Kevin is killing it.

[Cracktivity 23]

The problem is always going to be that most people don't use that as their main definition of racism. They would say that being racist is hating someone because of their race, something of which anyone can be a victim. This may actually be "prejudice" rather than "racism" but Andrew mixes up the two concepts all the time. It would probably cause less confusion and fewer message board battles to say that white people can't suffer from institutional or systemic racism, but they can certainly be the victims of prejudicial attitudes or hate crimes.

[meshair 3]

So who gets to decide what a word "really" means, anyway? Is there some kind of ruling council? Because most words have more than one definition, and you can use context to decide what the person means...

[AmPaul 1]

"Racism" generally implies that it is a part of systematic oppression in which the dominant race is keeping itself stronger than the other races. Since white people dominate the USA, it is therefore impossible for racism (in this sense) against white people to exist in the USA, or any other country run by white people.

 

Bigotry and prejudice against white people can and does exist, of course, but it doesn't do as much harm or injustice as true racism.

 

Well first off, racism is not generally inferred to mean that. That's probably the definition Kevin Irmiter is used to hearing, but if you ask almost anyone not running a social justice blog, and they'll give you something closer to the more widely used definition: prejudice against someone based on their race.

Ignoring that, though, I'll use your definition for my next point: Just because it doesn't fit the specific definition of racism, it doesn't make it acceptable. It's a logical jump that I see happening a lot in the social-justice circles. Sure, it may not cause as much harm to a white person when you call them a cracker than when you call a black person the n-word, just like punching someone in the face doesn't hurt as bad as kicking them in the nuts, but "not as bad in comparison" does not equal "fine".

[wakefresh 689]

 

Well first off, racism is not generally inferred to mean that. That's probably the definition Kevin Irmiter is used to hearing, but if you ask almost anyone not running a social justice blog, and they'll give you something closer to the more widely used definition: prejudice against someone based on their race.

Ignoring that, though, I'll use your definition for my next point: Just because it doesn't fit the specific definition of racism, it doesn't make it acceptable. It's a logical jump that I see happening a lot in the social-justice circles. Sure, it may not cause as much harm to a white person when you call them a cracker than when you call a black person the n-word, just like punching someone in the face doesn't hurt as bad as kicking them in the nuts, but "not as bad in comparison" does not equal "fine".

 

Calling someone the n-word is like punching them in the face AND kicking them in the nuts. Calling someone a cracker is like shoving someone. If there is an imbalance of power in relation to how racism effects people it is because there was an imbalance of power tilted toward one group in this country. It wasn't white people who had the negative effects of Jim Crow thrown at them daily. On the contrary, it was a great benefit to them -- they didn't have to compete against the best to get a job, they only had to compete against other white men; they had a population that they steal from at will and have the courts back them up whether or not they were aggressor in the case; and if things got bad for them (laid off, dirt poor, etc) they had a population that they could take their frustrations out on with impunity.

 

So the problem is that 50+ years after Brown v Board of Education, we still institutions who continue practices based on ones developed during Jim Crow or in the backlash against desegregation. That's a real problem because it means real opportunity lost. Another problem is that we still have people who hold wrong-headed ideas developed during Jim Crow toward minorities. Because of the previous imbalance of power during Jim Crow you had a population that had access to capital and all of the benefits therein (better educations, jobs, etc). So in some instances, you could run into a person with wrong-headed ideas and that person is your superior or runs the company or runs the state legislature. When they make decisions based on these wrong-headed ideas, that means opportunity lost for minorities. Getting called cracker is not even on the same level, in fact, its not even listed on the levels.

 

There's a poster on here called "anneymarie" who put it nicely:

 

As a white woman, the worst thing about racism for me is someone might think I'm being racist when I'm not. But I am at least somewhat racist at least some of the time because racism is a part of our ridiculous society that I have to work on getting de-ingrained from myself. People of color have to worry about getting killed, at the worst, and earning enough money, at the very least. So I just find it hard to feel that bad about people's fear of being called racist or insults to their regions as major problems when "1 Black Man Is Killed Every 28 Hours by Police or Vigilantes."

[AmPaul 1]

Shariq, that's a fine essay, but it doesn't really counter my point. You are agreeing with me that calling someone a cracker is not as bad as calling someone the n-word, but my argument was that, despite it being not as severe, it's still not an OK thing to do. And I was just using slurs as examples. Whether it be against POC or white people, whether you refuse to call it racism, instead labeling it something like simply "prejudice" or whatever you like, the name of it doesn't matter. It's still unacceptable.

 

I've heard Andrew many times on this podcast make fun of and stereotype ugh....white people... and justify it with this weak logic, that "not as bad"="acceptable".

(Addition point here. Had to go to work)

A show such as this, and its forums, should be the last place where any sort of racial prejudice is tolerated.