EPISODE 191 — Drizzle, No Apologies

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

I can't call in at that day and time either. Is there going to be anyone calling in to call Kozelek out?

[souprman 10477]

 

PLZ SOUPRMAN DONT SEND YOUR MRA/REDPILL HERD AFTER ME

 

great, now i know what both those things are. also, eat shit.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

 

great, now i know what both those things are. also, eat shit.

I'm just happy to have helped you find a community of like-minded people soupman

[OneNoteSong 15]

I thought Snapes' response should be posted here.

 

"But in this life, Kozelek trades in sucker-punches. He impugns online "bitching and whining", but hides behind one-way email exchanges, balks at the idea of his peers speaking about him and issues tirades (and sometimes, sexual advances) from the cowardly remove of the stage, with the get-out clause that it’s a performance. He can use sexually violent language to reduce female critics to the status of groupies, knowing that while male musicians’ misogynist acts are examined for nuance and defended as traits of "difficult” artists, women and those who call them out are treated as hysterics who don’t understand art. “The world don’t owe us shit, I learned that real fuckin’ young,” he sings on Universal Themes’ Little Rascals. If anything remains to separate Kozelek from his work, it’s that his music preaches that the least we owe one another is decency."

 

Source: http://www.theguardi...-bitch-on-stage

[JARich86 7]

I fully agree with Matt on this, but I think I can give a good devil's advocate summary of where the other side is coming from...

 

Matt repeatedly insists that we need to put these (Kozelek/Meadows') comments in context, and think about the intent behind them, but he's actually overemphasizing the importance of intent. The critical issue is not what they meant, but how these comments are heard. Matt, you're a sophisticated consumer of comedy, so when you hear Tim Meadows make a joke like "White people ask me if I'm Don Cheadle, black people say 'Don't rob me!'" you realize he's skewering how black men are perceived in America. You know there's layers of satire and self-deprecation beneath the text of that joke.

 

But not all (maybe not even most) people will hear it that way. They'll hear Tim say that, and laugh, and think "It's funny because black men really are all criminals! And now a black man is saying it so it must be true!" And so a harmful stereotype gets reinforced. And when that joke ends up on Twitter, without the giant quotation marks around anything said on the stage of a comedy club, he may as well be saying "Black men will rob you." Which gives people inclined towards prejudice a little more fuel for their rhetoric, and the world becomes a little bit more racist.

 

Think about a film like Starship Troopers. It's a satire of jingoistic military culture, and the mentality that leads to preemptive strikes. But the satire is subtle and artful enough that most people who saw the film missed it entirely, and just cheered at seeing aliens blow up. The argument here is: it's a bad message to send, whatever the artist's intent.

 

When Kozelek played that not-especially-funny song about the journalist, he may well have been an ornery guy being ornery, nothing more. (Though if you think "War On Drugs Suck My Cock" proves he's an equal opportunity offender, you should read this: http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/515-sun-kil-moon-yells-at-cloud-the-problem-with-male-pattern-violence/ . The phrase "patriarchal herd mentality" is invoked.)

 

But to a woman in the crowd who doesn't know who Laura Snapes is, who doesn't know about Kozelek's history, who just bought a ticket because "Benji" is a tremendous fucking album, he's just on stage, telling some anonymous woman she totally wants to fuck him, and the crowd is laughing, and now she feels deeply uncomfortable because Kozelek and a whole room of fans are cracking sexual jokes at some woman's expense. Maybe Kozelek isn't misogynist, but the song was, and the reaction was, and a whole lot of misogynist attitudes have now been reinforced. And you can understand why people worried about the reaction to Kozelek or Meadows would turn to social media to push back against it.

 

Now, if you take this line of thought to its logical conclusion you end up in some nasty places, but it comes from a coherent, well-intentioned place.

[Veegs 59]

I fully agree with Matt on this, but I think I can give a good devil's advocate summary of where the other side is coming from...

 

Matt repeatedly insists that we need to put these (Kozelek/Meadows') comments in context, and think about the intent behind them, but he's actually overemphasizing the importance of intent. The critical issue is not what they meant, but how these comments are heard. Matt, you're a sophisticated consumer of comedy, so when you hear Tim Meadows make a joke like "White people ask me if I'm Don Cheadle, black people say 'Don't rob me!'" you realize he's skewering how black men are perceived in America. You know there's layers of satire and self-deprecation beneath the text of that joke.

 

But not all (maybe not even most) people will hear it that way. They'll hear Tim say that, and laugh, and think "It's funny because black men really are all criminals! And now a black man is saying it so it must be true!" And so a harmful stereotype gets reinforced. And when that joke ends up on Twitter, without the giant quotation marks around anything said on the stage of a comedy club, he may as well be saying "Black men will rob you." Which gives people inclined towards prejudice a little more fuel for their rhetoric, and the world becomes a little bit more racist.

 

Think about a film like Starship Troopers. It's a satire of jingoistic military culture, and the mentality that leads to preemptive strikes. But the satire is subtle and artful enough that most people who saw the film missed it entirely, and just cheered at seeing aliens blow up. The argument here is: it's a bad message to send, whatever the artist's intent.

 

When Kozelek played that not-especially-funny song about the journalist, he may well have been an ornery guy being ornery, nothing more. (Though if you think "War On Drugs Suck My Cock" proves he's an equal opportunity offender, you should read this: http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/515-sun-kil-moon-yells-at-cloud-the-problem-with-male-pattern-violence/ . The phrase "patriarchal herd mentality" is invoked.)

 

But to a woman in the crowd who doesn't know who Laura Snapes is, who doesn't know about Kozelek's history, who just bought a ticket because "Benji" is a tremendous fucking album, he's just on stage, telling some anonymous woman she totally wants to fuck him, and the crowd is laughing, and now she feels deeply uncomfortable because Kozelek and a whole room of fans are cracking sexual jokes at some woman's expense. Maybe Kozelek isn't misogynist, but the song was, and the reaction was, and a whole lot of misogynist attitudes have now been reinforced. And you can understand why people worried about the reaction to Kozelek or Meadows would turn to social media to push back against it.

 

Now, if you take this line of thought to its logical conclusion you end up in some nasty places, but it comes from a coherent, well-intentioned place.

Well since I won't be on the podcast might as well just keep arguing...

I think you're making a mistake like Matt did by conflating the Meadows and Kozelek issues. What Meadows said was fine and no one is arguing that. You seem to understand a lot of things I was saying, but I take issue with what you said about intent. Kozelek's intent doesn't prevent the song from being offensive, because his intent was to insult someone, and using misogynistic language to fulfill this intent is not acceptable. As I've previously explained it is possible to act on this intent without using misogynist language. Essentially, it doesn't matter if Kozelek didn't intend to do a misogynistic thing because he did a misogynistic thing anyway. I agree that following the logic of "intent never matters" is a bad thing, but if Kozelek's intent was to avoid demeaning someone based on the fact that she's a woman, he failed. So it's not that intent can never enter into the discussion nor is that we're not "sophisticated" enough to understand Kozelek. It's rather that the outcome is still negative. Perhaps this is to 100% intended hate speech as manslaughter is to murder, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable.

[Corky Kneivel 113]

Well since I won't be on the podcast might as well just keep arguing...

 

 

Actually that's kinda why you should stop. Take it to the stage, sucka.

[Veegs 59]

 

Actually that's kinda why you should stop. Take it to the stage, sucka.

My job though? This isn't cowardice. I'm confident in my arguments.

[DorkyButCool 86]

I was very ready to argue against what Matt was saying against Sun Kil Moon, but I got to the end and I agree with him. He CAN say what he wants. I think he's a talented musician, I also think he's a pretty big asshole from what I've read. He also seems to hate doing press, but loves getting attention from the press. That War On Drugs thing was just a one off comment on a stage, the press picked it up, and it was a big thing. He publicly made up with the band, and then he wrote and produced a song about the situation seemingly just to keep the attention on himself. He says what he wants, and I don't agree with it or like it, but Matty B is right (like always) in that he's basically just an overall asshole and not just a specific kind of asshole. (I know Besser wasn't calling him an asshole at all, but that's how I feel about him.)

[Hot - Slunch 772]

Great episode. Always fun to hear Mookie and Stephanie. That porn scene was awesome.

 

Please tell me that Chad Carter will be on the DCM NY show! He hasn't been on in a long time.

 

Matt repeatedly insists that we need to put these (Kozelek/Meadows') comments in context, and think about the intent behind them, but he's actually overemphasizing the importance of intent. The critical issue is not what they meant, but how these comments are heard.

 

People are hearing things wrong. That's on the dumbdumbs listening, not necessarily the people saying them.

 

If they aren't grasping what's being said, then they shouldn't be spouting off about it.

[KateRhoades 28]

Hey, everybody, I'm calling to the show on weds- I wanted to mostly say that writing a think piece about a musician saying something misogynist isn't the same as censorship. I'm sad a couple of you can't call in because I think you might do a better job than me... help me out!

[KateRhoades 28]

I can't call in at that day and time either. Is there going to be anyone calling in to call Kozelek out?

 

I'm calling in, and I agree with most of the things you've said on this forum. I just wanted to talk more about "political correctness" and censorship in a more general way rather than just about this one specific musician... I'd be happy to take any tips, though, either way.

[souprman 10477]

Topic: Is Kozelek a misogynist, and should he be condemned for the Snapes song?

 

I'm calling in, and I agree with most of the things you've said on this forum. I just wanted to talk more about "political correctness" and censorship in a more general way rather than just about this one specific musician... I'd be happy to take any tips, though, either way.

[KateRhoades 28]

 

That's really all we're talking about, this one guy? He brought up Seinfeld not playing colleges because kids are too PC, "Apology Culture", racism, etc. We're just talking about the Sun Kil Moon guy? Wouldn't you rather be able to close a bigger case?

[souprman 10477]

 

That's really all we're talking about, this one guy? He brought up Seinfeld not playing colleges because kids are too PC, "Apology Culture", racism, etc. We're just talking about the Sun Kil Moon guy? Wouldn't you rather be able to close a bigger case?

Kate, I don't run Bartertown.

[souprman 10477]

"Knowledge of syphilis is not an instruction to get syphilis."

 

Lenny Bruce.

[Hot - Slunch 772]

I should also say that there's a huge difference between saying a certain thing made you feel a certain way, and declaring a thing to be a certain way because of what you felt.

 

Everyone is totally fine to hear that song or Tim's joke and feel whatever they feel... However, just because you feel that way doesn't make your opinion gospel to everyone else.

 

These things turn into a game of telephone. One person writes a shitty thing about somebody being racist, because they didn't get a joke, and it can totally ruin a person's career.

 

Inflammatory and exciting words grab readers, so these people immediately grab onto the most negative and simplistic words they can to get views.

 

What would garner more hits:

 

A. The ramifications of 9/11 and George W. Bush's involvement in Iraq

 

Or

 

B. Did George Bush start the Iraq war because of his dad?

 

 

 

What the hell was I talking about?

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

 

I'm calling in, and I agree with most of the things you've said on this forum. I just wanted to talk more about "political correctness" and censorship in a more general way rather than just about this one specific musician... I'd be happy to take any tips, though, either way.

 

The best thing I've ever heard on political correctness is a long bit by Stewart Lee, this British standup:

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Also timely:

(source)

[souprman 10477]

Case Closed.

[KateRhoades 28]

Case Closed.

 

You were surprisingly polite, and it was nice to hear from you even if I don't agree with some of the things you said. Also, Andy Daly is RAD, and we will always agree on that.

[illuminatedwax 59]

Debating about shit is one of my favorite things to do, so thank you so much for inviting me on the show, and thank you so much to Kate and souprman who were excellent people to have a discussion with!

[Yankeebeetle 37]

 

so any time female gender is part of the context of an insult it is hate-speech and misogyny?

 

...yes?

[souprman 10477]

that was rhetorical. thanks.

[FaceLikeThunder 2114]

Did the case closed air on the music episode?

[earpanther 451]

Nodge, you fool. It will be on the next episode.