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Posts posted by Cameron H.
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Just now, Cam Bert said:I miss it too. Hopefully it works internationally.
Remind me, Cam, and maybe you and I can experiment with it sometime this week.
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Just now, tomspanks said:Yes, please! I missed itÂ
Since the world is full of hope again, it might be nice. If anyone's interested, we could go back to first Friday per month. 9PM EST. Sound good?Â
I would love to see if we could coax some of our old friends back for this...
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1 minute ago, tomspanks said:Btw has anyone noticed the "Watch Party" option on Amazon Prime? Â
I have! I believe Netflix has that option as well. Maybe in the new year we can start up HDTGM Classics again? It might be a fun way to bring in the new year...Â
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5 minutes ago, Elektra Boogaloo said:I might need to leave. I went to this Wikipedia article. It made me sad for penguins. But then I thought, âhey do cats rape (like dolphins do because I never miss a chance to tell people with dumb dolphin tattoos or jewelry that dolphins are known rapists. See Jaws 3)Â Cats are not listed among the animals, in case you DONâTÂ want to bum yourself out by learning about animal rape.Â
Then the next thing I thought was: if Macavity did rape Grizabella, did he shout âMacavity!â as he came.
i will show myself out.
This is upsetting
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1 hour ago, The_Triple_Lindy said:Sheï»ż haunted many a low resort
Near the grimy road of Tottenham Court
She flitted about the No Man's Land
From "The Rising Sun" to "The Friend at Hand"So Grizzabella is not from the same side of town, it would seem. But that doesn't automatically make her a sex worker -- perhaps she was just aping upperclass glamour, and now that she's been brought low by time and age, everyone around her takes a certain schadenfreude in her current state.Â ï»ż
The rest of those lyrics, however, donât seem, to me anyway, to suggest that it was ever just an act:
And the postman sighed as he scratched his head
"You'd really had thought she ought to be dead"
And who would ever suppose thatÂ
That was Grizabella, the glamor catSince the movie never plays with irony, I think we have to take it at face value. She was truly a glamour cat, and now she isnât. Or, maybe, she still is, but is no longer recognizable as such.
I also have to go back to my theory of âjellicleâ being synonymous with a kind of self-actualization. If her jellicle nature is âglamour cat,â then existentially, she canât lie about that. In my opinion, either she was or she wasnât.Â
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3 hours ago, Cam Bert said:I'm sorry but is nobody going to address how McCavity shouts his own name when he disappears people?!?!
Well, how would you do it?
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Â
9 hours ago, Elektra Boogaloo said:Thereï»ż is the line that she went off with Macavity, that is what happenedï»żï»ż to her. And I donât know why I interpret that to mean he was her pimp and not just that  he was abusive or stole all her stuff or any other scenario.Â
I think of McCavity as generally being a corrupting influence, literally rotting those around him from the inside out (My Cavity). I donât think he has a specific modus operandi, however. More of a general malignancy that poisons everything around him.Â
Â9 hours ago, Elektra Boogaloo said:Whatâs weirdï»ż, and what I have been thinking about it since you brought it up, is that there shouldnât be prostitution in a Cat world. That is a human vice. So maybe it just says I was never convinced they were actually cats is the problem. But I donât know, maybe if the world felt more silly and joyful (and I have seen clips of the stage show tï»żhat seem that way) then my brain wouldnât have gone there.Â
I think thatâs my biggest hang up on the âsex workerâ theory. Iâm not saying itâs not right, maybe it is, but it doesnât exactly hold water based on everything we do see. I think we are supposed to see occasional expressions of humanity in the catsâ behavior, but I donât think weâre supposed to impose human motivations upon them.Â
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32 minutes ago, Elektra Boogaloo said:damn Cats
Indeed
Â
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8 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:Not to mention that it seems to completely miss the point of the character
Or it could be that the point being made is that we (the audience) are supposed to make superficial assumptions about her because we're all just a bunch of lousy cats, too. I think this might actually be pretty likely. I still think she's just a stray though.
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1 hour ago, Elektra Boogaloo said:I hate to disagree with you, forum Paul. But I do think that is a logical conclusion based solely on the film. Sure the poems are for kids and itâs a family musical, but in the FILM the cats are weirdly sexualized. And the Taylor Swift song , if I recall correctly, has catnip and it is sort of implied she is bewitching them. I donât know. I got the impression she was once like the Taylor Swift cat and then she sort of fell into prostitution. Why else is she out on the STREET? She became a streetwalker!Â
I donât think Andrew Lloyd Webber would say sheâs a sex worker... but, again, the movie is weirdly sexual in a way that I donât like. And that is what I thought she was as well until I fell down the poetry rabbit hole (still mad at T.S. Eliot).Â
I have to respectfully disagree, forum June. While I agree some of the cats are sexualized, and there are certainly hints of promiscuity (Rum Tum Tugger and Taylor Swiftâs cats, for sure), I would argue that Grizebella is one of the only cats that isnât sexualized. And, I have to stress, an assumption that McCavity is her pimp feels patently absurd. I donât believe they even share a single scene together!Â
I just donât see any evidence of prostitution. Iâm not even sure what would be exchanged for sexual favors. Cat treats? Is it coded in a language that I just donât understand? I guess I need something more solid then, âShe just comes off as a sex worker.â
I think itâs exactly as it says on the tin. Just like they have literal railroad cats and literal barge cats, she was literally a glamorous cat. I think her tragedy is far more universal. Itâs essentially, âI used to be amazing, but things went bad, and now everyoneâs forgotten about me. So much so, that, even to myself, I am completely unrecognizable as the being I once was.â
I think a more apt parallel for Grizebella would be aging actress - which, to me, makes a lot of sense for a stage production. In her heyday, she used to be center stage, but despite her obvious talent, she got pushed further and further to the wings, until one day, her agents just stopped calling altogether. This is why she gets the big number at the center of the movie. Sheâs saying, âLook at me! I still have worth! Iâm more than just the pretty face I used to be!â
Again, thereâs nothing wrong with it if she is supposed to be a sex worker, but to make a superficial assumption based on, I guess, how the character looks, without further evidence to back that up, feels fraught to me. Not to mention that it seems to completely miss the point of the character.
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Iâm not sure we should just breeze right past the fact that Paul referred to Grizabella the Glamour Cat as...the âsex workerâ cat?!?
The cats in the movie are supposed to represent real cat personalities, traits, and behavior. For example, Rum Tum Tugger is supposed to evoke a horny alley cat, while Mungojerry and Rumpleteezer represent the more mischievous nature of cats. Even the more fantastical cats like Mr Mephistopheles, represent cats who do amazing, seemingly magical things. You know what cats arenât known for? Sex work. Iâm...not even sure what that would even be.
Basically, Grizebella is a cat who was once beautiful and pampered. She had a cushy life, but has since fell on hard times. She would have been a cat youâd put in a competition or something. And while itâs never mentioned explicitly, I believe the audience is supposed to come to the conclusion that, as she grew older and her beauty began to fade, she was abandoned by her owners. This leaves her in a decidedly un-jellicle existential dilemma. What happens to you when you can no longer be the thing you were born to be? Not only that, what happens when you lose your entire support system when you learn that the love you thought you had turns out to be superficial and conditional?
The song âMemoriesâ is Grizebella remembering the good life she used to have, wishing she could go back there, accepting that she canât, and trying to find the courage to carry on.
So, while there is certainly nothing wrong with sex work as a profession, no, Grizebella is not meant to represent a âsex worker cat.â
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1 hour ago, Elektra Boogaloo said:Iï»ż thinkï»żï»żï»ż Eliotï»ż just usedï»ż his own catâs nickname. But I tend to think this becï»żause I do not like these poems and think itâs all dumb and people pretend all his poems are great because they had to read PRUFROCK in school.Â
Â
Eta I agree with Cameronâs theory about sï»żelf actualization in the context of the film and, probablyï»ż thï»żï»że mï»żusical. I havenât seen it. But I also think the film and the musical give this weird word significance just because it came fromï»żï»żï»ż ï»żtï»żhï»że pen of a Pulitzer Prize winner. And itâs just s stupid thing.ï»żÂ ï»żï»żï»żï»żï»żï»żï»ż
I tend to agree. I think, because of Eliotâs erudition and the density and scope of the allusions found in his work, that thereâs a bit of literary FOMO - now and from his contemporaries. I always felt, particularly in college, there was a fear that if you admitted that you didnât like him, you were opening yourself to accusations of ânot getting itâ regardless of whether or not your criticisms had any merit.  (Personally, Iâm more of an e e cummings man.)
But, yeah, with these inviolable literary genius types, there always tends to be a move to over analyze their work â even when all signs point to it just being something they threw together on a lazy afternoon.
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To answer Paul's question about why Judi Dench's character is called Old Deuteronomy and not something more whimsical, I think it has to do with her role in the Musical, where she is portrayed as the wise magistrate of the feline world.  (And, to clarify briefly, we don't actually know that she doesn't have a silly name. Explicitly, we are told all Cats have three names. Implicitly, we are to infer that these names are: the name they are given by a human, the name they are given by other cats, and the name they give themselves. For all we know, her name is actually Wimblewuzzle or something equally absurd.)
Anyway, Old Deuteronomy is a name that was given to the wisest cat in T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats." As a poet, T.S. Eliot was known for his use dense imagery and use of classical, often obscure, sometimes contradictory, allusions. The Book of Deuteronomy, of course, is the fifth book of the Torah, and is a series of sermons where Moses reminds the Hebrew people of where they came from, who they are (through their laws), and where they are going. The Shema Yisrael in Deuteronomy 6 helps to further solidify the Jewish identity.
In Cats, Dench's Deuteronomy plays a similar role. As she guides Victoria (and us) through the world of Cats. She tells us what cats should strive to be (jellicle), what they should avoid being (dogs), and where they hope to go (The Heavyside Layer).   Â
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Iâm still listening, so maybe they get to it, but hereâs what a jellicle cat is:
A jellicle cat is a cat who is destined to fulfill a specific purpose - railroad cat, theater cat, kitchen cat, etc. Even Macavity fulfills a role as an evil cat. To put that in human terms, Paul Scheer is a human being. Paul Scheer the human has free will and can be anything he chooses to be, but the âjellicleâ version of Paul Scheer might be be Actor/Comedian Paul Scheer. In other words, that identity is the fulfillment of his destiny.
Essentially, the cats are striving for self-actualization and eventual reincarnation.  To use Paul as an example again, âActor/Comedian Paul Scheerâ might be his jellicle identity, but to qualify for the Heavyside Layer, Paul would have to be the BEST Actor/Comedian Paul Scheer he can be. Note: this doesnât mean he has to be the best actor/comedian out of all actor/comedians, but the best actor/comedian *Paul Scheer* he can be. If you were to put it in Buddhist terms (which you 100% should), the Heavyside Layer would be like attaining Nirvana, and being a jellicle would be the equivalent of a bodhisattva - in other words, the step just before full enlightenment.
As for the plot, Victoria is an abandoned kitten. She is young and is just learning the nature of cats. She learns that on that particular night, one cat will be chosen for reincarnation as a reward for being the fullest expression of their specific cat type. Macavity, a bad cat, is up for reincarnation as well, because he is the fullest embodiment an evil cat. Macavity kidnaps all his competition, so when the choice is made, he will be the only option available. Eventually, the other nominees are freed, Macavity is stopped, and the Grizabella the Glamour cat is chosen - proving that, ultimately, its more about who you are on the inside rather than what you are on the outside. At the end, Dench tells Victoria that she too might one day become a jellicle cat - presumably a cat of love and kindness, as it is through her heart that the others are finally able to see the Grizabella for what she truly is.
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16 minutes ago, grudlian. said:Christmas Romance Crew, are either of these as bad as Christmas In Handcuffs? Because that one nearly broke me. The ghost christmas movie was fine.
Knight is dumb fun - lots to talk about. I havenât seen Nutty.
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The other one will be...
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One of their live virtual movies is going to be...
(Iâm pretty sure I recommended this one last year )
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1 hour ago, AlmostAGhost said:Netflix Christmas romance movie
It was better than I remembered.Â
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So, I've been trying to figure out what this movie is actually about. One theory I've had is that it's about white male mediocrity. Pippin himself bemoans his less than "extraordinary" existence and how he wants to do more, but he, by his own admission, kind of sucks at all of it. Ultimately, The Lead Player tells him that the best thing he can do is die in a spectacular fashion -- and he ends up fucking that up too.Â
At least, that's what I got out of it.
Of course there was a line cut from the performance. At the end, when asked how he's feeling, Pippin is supposed to reply, "Trapped, which isn't bad for a Musical Comedy." Fosse wanted that line to be "Trapped, but happy, which isn't bad for a Musical Comedy." Honestly, I like how this performance ended as it leaves his response ambiguous. However, I also like Fosse's rewrite since, if I'm right about white male mediocrity, it ends with him dissatisfied, but accepting his limitations.  Â
Â
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6 minutes ago, Cinco DeNio said:The funny part is the composer also wrote Godspell. It took him 30 years but he had a big hit with Wicked.
Wasnât this, and Godspell, a hit? I feel like Iâve seen a movie contemporary to when Pippin was on Broadway that referenced it. I want to say Annie Hall, but I donât think thatâs right...
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I also feel like I was oversold on the horniness of the movie.
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Yeah, my bad. Lol
Honestly, I really like the first song and I liked a lot of the meta stuff, but mostly, this wasnât very good. With Bob Fosseâs name attached I expected some pretty stellar choreography, but in all but a few cases, it was pretty lackluster.
Also, Pippin, or Pepin the Hunchbacked, was a real person, but also kind of a non-entity. I was really confused as to why he was chosen as the protagonist â especially when itâs pretty much completely factionalized. It literally could have been about anyone. Was that the point of them trying to coax someone up on stage? Maybe...?
All in all, I wouldnât mind seeing a better version of this, but this version was...not great.
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Musical Mondays Week 106 Preview (tomspanks' Pick)
in How Did This Get Made?
Posted
That's BLACK FRIDAY!
(Yeah, that will be fine.)
Â