Episode 100 - Juno vs. Whiplash (w/ Franklin Leonard and Kate Hagen)

[KickMuncher3 46]

This was always going to be hands-down Juno for me I couldn't have expressed Juno's canon-worthiness better than this episode did. But on a personal note, 2007 was the year that I really got into film and Juno was one of the cinema-going experiences that really opened my eyes. For most of my teenaged years, I would cite it as my favourite film and it's still up there. Juno all the way, home-skillet!

[Jdhpiano 4]

 

Yep yep yep yep yep 100%

This paired with the fact "neither" is an option this poll is fucked.

 

I'd vote for both of these films seperately but being forced to choose in this bizarro sophie's choice in ehich the ultimatum itself really makes no sense, I'd have to go with Whiplash-

A tight film with multiple exceptional thematic throughlines. The editing, music, performances and direction are all laserfocused to create this unbelievably exciting film.

 

Juno's a fun film that I would've voted for if not for this nonsense, but even then it's not Reitman's best.

 

Downside both those as vs. episodes would be awesome, and a fun conversation worth having.

[Louisjab 50]

Why the hell are they adding a Neither option... the entire point of The Canon has always been "deal with it", and people complained and complained in literally every versus episode that there needs to be a Neither option. But now it's here to stay apparently.

 

I feel the same. Although I get the idea (single movie episodes offers the option of no movie joining the canon, while the versus doesn't), I think it hurts the concept of the versus episodes to have a neither options. One has to get in, so pick carefully. I'll go with Juno, because I don't think the last part holds up enough. I think it's a great idea that doesn't completely knows how to go from there.

[Robert Boberts 6]

This was difficult for me to choose, partly because neither is a shoe-in for the Canon, but also because this pairing has really nothing much in common to make it a good versus. There are tons of movies on the Blacklist, so that doesn't seem to be enough to pair them against each other. The only thing I thought going into it is that they both have JK Simmons. Whiplash is his better performance, but that still doesn't make me want to vote for it.

 

I think I enjoyed Whiplash more, but I just don't think it belongs in the Canon. I already rewatched Juno a couple months ago and I still like it. I'd be hesitant to vote it in if it were the only movie discussed, but I like the argument about it being influential.

 

I am glad there is a neither option, but I don't think I want to use it every time I can't pick a movie. I'd rather use that in extreme cases where I really dislike both movies. In this case, I do like both. I'm voting for Juno.

 

What the hell is twee though? I've heard this word on the Brett Easton Ellis podcast. I've looked up the definition, but I just don't understand what the word is referring to. What makes Juno's dialogue twee?

[LondonCallingRex 33]

By the way, why did Franklin bring Whiplash to the table if he was going to take the stance that it hasn't been around long enough to have made an impact? Why not pick a different movie from the Black List that actually *has* had an impact so that Whiplash can be saved for later? So confused by the pairing in this episode.

[0=Axel=0 4]

Whiplash all the way.

 

The only reason Juno has more of a cultural impact is because it's been around for seven more years. I guarantee that Whiplash will have at least as much of a cultural impact if not more of one by 2021. Even in 2014 and 2015, you could already see its effect. And as a musician, I could relate to this movie very strongly. The scene where Simmons tries out the new band students and puts them down one by one crushes me every time. Juno is a reprehensible movie not just because it inspired a bunch of crap movies but also because it abortion-shames. The last thing young women need is ONE MORE piece of media telling them that it's too hard and not to go through with it.

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

Listening to the episode, a couple of early thoughts

 

1) The intentional lack of swearing (e.g. in Juno) is a stylistic choice that has been used to memorable effect in a lot of movies/television. Obviously it's a practical consideration, but it can be turned around with good world building. A good example is Battlestar Galactica (the new one).

 

2) The reason why junior/immature films tend to age better is that the target audience grows older with them. Generally speaking, no one asks old folks about the films they loved twenty years ago.

 

3) I get the conceit of this episode, but it's really two independent episodes rather than one "versus". Might have been better off to run them as separate "blacklist" episodes? It's clear that Franklin Leonard has a great eye for screenwriting. I think it could have held up.

 

4) Jason Reitman has a better director's resume than his dad, which is remarkable given how (relatively) young he is.

[HoldenMartinson 221]

4) Jason Reitman has a better director's resume than his dad, which is remarkable given how (relatively) young he is.

Right? He has four near-great pictures, and two that aren't particularly good, but hardly terrible. Also, Casual is terrific.

[Susan* 135]

 

 

What the hell is twee though? I've heard this word on the Brett Easton Ellis podcast. I've looked up the definition, but I just don't understand what the word is referring to. What makes Juno's dialogue twee?

It's difficult to put into words -- it's one of those things where you know it when you see it. For me, the ultimate twee movie is Royal Tennenbaums. It's where every single little detail is very deliberate and designed, but it's supposed to look like it's not. It's supposed to look like cool doesn't matter and it's thrown together, old-fashioned, unhip, but it's actually letting you know it's hip and cool. You find it attractive while it's insisting that you shouldn't find it attractive. That's my attempt at a start.

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

It's difficult to put into words -- it's one of those things where you know it when you see it. For me, the ultimate twee movie is Royal Tennenbaums. It's where every single little detail is very deliberate and designed, but it's supposed to look like it's not. It's supposed to look like cool doesn't matter and it's thrown together, old-fashioned, unhip, but it's actually letting you know it's hip and cool.

I would argue that in a Wes Anderson movie, it's pretty clear that the details are supposed to be noticed. But yeah, Anderson movies qualify as "twee", largely because of their overt sentimentality.

 

I didn't realize that Bret Easton Ellis had a podcast. I'll definitely not check that one out.

[Galactiac 91]

Wes Anderson is the master of twee visuals. It nearly always works for me in his movies. Except for Fantastic Mr. Fox; that shit put me to sleep.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

Wes Anderson is the master of twee visuals. It nearly always works for me in his movies. Except for Fantastic Mr. Fox; that shit put me to sleep.

 

That's interesting. Fantastic Mr. Fox tends to be one of the Wes Anderson movies that even Wes Anderson haters find tolerable, in my experience.

[Threshold 93]

Does the Canon even matter now that Whiplash has been voted out?

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

Does the Canon even matter now that Whiplash has been voted out?

Considering that Devin (while he was here) forgot what was even in the Canon on a few instances, I would argue that the actual Canon never mattered.

[HoldenMartinson 221]

Considering that Devin (while he was here) forgot what was even in the Canon on a few instances, I would argue that the actual Canon never mattered.

It didn't. He professed that The Canon is just an excuse to talk about what makes for great film. Sometimes that included episodes for films that were perceived, though undeserving classics, like Pretty in Pink, or The Shawshank Redemption, or The Lost Weekend. It's just about exploring the reputation of art, really.

[DanielAnoroc 2]

Juno sits alongside Avatar as one of the most garbage movies I've ever seen. A story of a girl failing to get an abortion, giving her baby to a couple on craigslist, and then singing a shitty moldy peaches song with her boyfriend; I honest-to-blog just don't understand the praise at all.

[Muthsarah 124]

Juno sits alongside Avatar as one of the most garbage movies I've ever seen. A story of a girl failing to get an abortion, giving her baby to a couple on craigslist, and then singing a shitty moldy peaches song with her boyfriend; I honest-to-blog just don't understand the praise at all.

 

Juno didn't "fail" to get an abortion. She chose not to, even though she initially chose to. Pro-choice means you accept the woman's decision, however she chooses. And yeah, she makes a rather impulsive, kinda-stupid choice to choose Vanessa and Mark via the Penny Saver ad, but it was Mark's decision to put the ad in such an...unorthodox source to begin with. Because he didn't really want anyone to bite. But Juno, also probably very much in doubt, and very likely also deeply ignorant of what she was doing, ending up biting on the almost "ironic" ad. Her father, her step-mother, and, to some extent, Vanessa, all ended up trying to educate her on the full ramifications of what she was doing (without ever forcing her), even if Mark - who was never on-board with the adoption-thing - eventually bailed.

 

I don't think it's a film everyone has to understand. It's all about a teenage girl making a momentous decision at a time of her life when she isn't prepared to deal with it, and the people who care about her. As she confessed to her own father: "I don't know what kind of girl I am". She's still figuring it all out herself. The audience sees the events of the film mostly through her eyes. She's better off with Paulie, rather than being a mother. She's still a kid herself. She could have taken the route of getting an abortion and just trying to forget about the whole matter, but she chose to see it through, to a natural (if not the most traditional) conclusion: Vanessa raises the child as her own, Juno goes back to being a kid, a little older and much wiser. But still a kid. Hence why she and Paulie are still a good pairing by the end. She remains the more emotionally-developed of the two, but she's just not ready to be a responsible adult (and not ready to be a mother). Paulie loves her, and she loves Paulie. Her father and stepmother are still watching over her. Vanessa (and her child) are still potentially in her life. That's the best thing for her at this point, whatever the future holds for her.