Man of Steel (2013)

[RyanSz 3140]

Superman has killed before though, he killed Doomsday as well as Zod, Faora and Quex-Ul of another universe after he used their krytptonite to de-power them. Then depending on the universe, Superman has killed others depending on the storyline. Unlike virtually all Batman stories, Superman will kill but will only use it as a last resort and will be tore up about it afterwards for having done so. This isn't the Superman of the gold/silver age where he was the perfect boyscout, the past couple decades have been about Superman figuring his place in the world and what he should do with his advantages like whether he should become a hero or a tryant.

 

As for the massive casualties, that is very much in line with comics where events like this happen and those outcomes are understood. The only superhero movie that really put a face to that was The Avengers when the different news feed were doing man on the street interviews and assessing the damage. And there is good that happens in the movie, Earth doesn't become Krypton II.

[thestray 361]

Superman has killed before though, he killed Doomsday as well as Zod, Faora and Quex-Ul of another universe after he used their krytptonite to de-power them. Then depending on the universe, Superman has killed others depending on the storyline. Unlike virtually all Batman stories, Superman will kill but will only use it as a last resort and will be tore up about it afterwards for having done so. This isn't the Superman of the gold/silver age where he was the perfect boyscout, the past couple decades have been about Superman figuring his place in the world and what he should do with his advantages like whether he should become a hero or a tryant.

 

As for the massive casualties, that is very much in line with comics where events like this happen and those outcomes are understood. The only superhero movie that really put a face to that was The Avengers when the different news feed were doing man on the street interviews and assessing the damage. And there is good that happens in the movie, Earth doesn't become Krypton II.

 

This is how I feel about Superman killing Zod in this film. That was clearly the choice the writers, or Snyder, wanted to make. Why? I understand that it's not unprecedented, but why, in this new iteration of Superman, setting up a new franchise, did they make the conscious decision that a character who is known for being adamantly against killing, needs to kill? They could've easily had him make the conscious decision not to kill Zod, end his threat in a way that didn't involve killing, and in the process show how strong Superman's moral character is. But they decided to go with the most convenient shallow solution, just have Supes murder him, and I feel like it was unnecessary to do that.

 

Massive casualties are definitely in line with comics. But it's also in line with comics that heroes try to prevent them. It's in line with comics that when heroes can't prevent them they feel shame for it. It's not in line with comics that Superman himself kills thousands of innocent people. Avengers did everything in their power to minimize casualities, and they didn't really have the ability to take the fight anywhere else. Superman on the other hand just goes ahead and rips through buildings. He doesn't think to himself let me try to lead this guy away from people, or grab him take this out into space or something.

 

But like, the logic of it is not even my point. My point was that all the death bummed me out. A Superman movie where Superman lets people die, causes people to die, millions die and he can't stop it, humans sacrifice themselves, it was kind of disturbing to me. It doesn't matter what has and hasn't happened in comics, everything in the movie was a deliberate choice, and they chose to make this Superman movie pretty dark instead of fun or uplifting.

 

As for earth not becoming krypton 2, I view that less as something good that happened, and more as something bad that didn't happen. Like, Hitler didn't exterminate ALL the Jews, he was eventually stopped, but that doesn't minimize how fucked up the Holocaust was. Millions of people died in this movie, and it could've been worse, sure, but it doesn't really make me feel happy and positive about the tragedy that ensued.

[thestray 361]

I legit feel crazy having to explain this. I'm not saying it was a bad movie. It's a cool movie. It's a cool sci-fi alien disaster movie. But I don't understand how people can watch literally millions of people lose their life, some due to the recklessness of the hero himself, and NOT feel like it's kinda grim.

[RyanSz 3140]

I don't feel grim cuz it's a movie and I just go for the entertainment and realize its not real. I shut my mind off for the most part in knowing it's a sci-fi comic movie. And for the most part the point was made that the buildings were almost entirely evacuated by the time Superman arrived at Metropolis, so when Zod and he were fighting in buildings, especially in higher stories, they were empty. It was kind of A-Team in that aspect.

[PlanBFromOuterSpace 3138]

*SPOILER*

 

 

OK, you know those people towards the end that Zod was going to burn a hole through? Is it just me, or did they look perfectly capable of escaping on their own? I mean, Supes pretty much had his head in place, so they could have gone UNDER the beam, or they could have moved along the wall or whatever they were up against in the opposite direction. Of all the places that people get trapped in this movie, this seems like the easiest situation to escape. Instead, they stand there like idiots and force Superman to become a murderer.

[RobM 66]

Hey look, the weekly "I'm cool for hating this weekend's blockbuster" thread.

[seanotron 2307]

I legit feel crazy having to explain this. I'm not saying it was a bad movie. It's a cool movie. It's a cool sci-fi alien disaster movie. But I don't understand how people can watch literally millions of people lose their life, some due to the recklessness of the hero himself, and NOT feel like it's kinda grim.

 

I get what you're saying and I definitely don't think you're crazy. One thing I'd point out though is Metropolis is basically Manhattan, and Manhattan only has about 1 million and a half people in it, so no way were the casualties in the millions. Thousands, yes. The destruction was big, but it wasn't millions big. Metropolis is still there at the end, admittedly worse for wear. And I'm not trying to downplay thousands of people dying, that's awful. But in the end, he's saved literally BILLIONS of people. I think most people would consider that a pretty big win.

[thestray 361]

I don't feel grim cuz it's a movie and I just go for the entertainment and realize its not real. I shut my mind off for the most part in knowing it's a sci-fi comic movie. And for the most part the point was made that the buildings were almost entirely evacuated by the time Superman arrived at Metropolis, so when Zod and he were fighting in buildings, especially in higher stories, they were empty. It was kind of A-Team in that aspect.

 

Oh word? It wasn't real? Haha. I know it's not real, but fiction should still make you feel something if you're a human who has empathy, right?

 

I mean, to each their own, if some people like to shut their mind off when they watch a movie I guess that's fine. A movie is storytelling, and for me there's no point in experiencing a story if I'm not going to attempt to empathize with it's characters and put myself in that world. I want to feel things when I watch a movie, even if it's a sci-fi/action/superhero movie. That's what stories are meant to do, to make you feel something, or learn something. I don't watch a movie as just random audiovisual stimuli. I feel like you might miss out on the full experience of cinema if you watch it detached not allowing yourself to be affected by it.

[thestray 361]

 

I get what you're saying and I definitely don't think you're crazy. One thing I'd point out though is Metropolis is basically Manhattan, and Manhattan only has about 1 million and a half people in it, so no way were the casualties in the millions. Thousands, yes. The destruction was big, but it wasn't millions big. Metropolis is still there at the end, admittedly worse for wear. And I'm not trying to downplay thousands of people dying, that's awful. But in the end, he's saved literally BILLIONS of people. I think most people would consider that a pretty big win.

 

I don't know math.

 

If most people would consider only thousands of people dying instead of billions, a pretty big win, than that is pretty disturbing to me in and of itself. Preventing the worst case scenario isn't a triumph to me. When some crazy gunman or terrorist murders a bunch of people, I don't consider it a pretty big win when they're stopped before they could've killed even more people. Is "It could've been worse" really supposed to be the positive takeaway in this movie? Thanks to Superman only thousands died! Yay Superman! What a beacon of hope! The next time some bad guys come to our planet trying to kill us we have Superman here to protect us, and thousands might die but he'll make sure not evvvrybody dies!

 

Zack Snyder is very good at showing us cool things, and telling us what is supposed to be important in the movie, but I don't think he understands how to make a story reflect the themes he's beating us over the head with. Superman gives the people of earth no reason to have hope. Zack Snyder makes them hopeful in the end, but he didn't justify it with the events in the story.

[imhatch 271]

It might seem like a really conspicuous point but it bears repeating sometimes - the most important question to ask before making a suggestion is 'How Did This Get Made?' If the answer is really obvious, then it's probably not a good candidate for the show.

 

Why did Man of Steel get made? Because it's basically a license to print money.

sometimes i feel like people are too hung up on the name of the show as if the bottom line criterion for doing a movie is answering this question. im not saying man of steel would be a fun movie for them to do but i don't think the premise of the show is to literally answer the question, otherwise the batman and robin/wild wild west/twilight episodes should have been four seconds long

[inactiveuser501 168]

Alright, I was about to say no harm done and talk about how the person I saw 'Man of Steel' called it stupid (an even bigger offense to me), but you're forcing me to play my hand.

 

The 'hope' that you keep saying isn't there is present in my view, but I believe it's in a different form. What you were expecting was a Superman movie where the objective was to stop the bad guy and save lives, and I get that from that standpoint, this movie was a downer. But I wasn't viewing it as a typical Superman movie, I saw it as an Origin Story. For me, the focus was on what the reaction was going to be to Superman's existence. And when General Zod threatens Earth unless Superman comes forth, I'm pretty sure the focus WAS saving the planet, as vague as that may seem. But to me, the real triumph was the fact that the military learned to accept Superman as a hero rather than a menace or an alien. He was able to bridge the gap that Jor-El was talking about between humans and Kryptonians. Society now wants Superman in there lives, setting up sequels where people WILL say "Hooray for Superman!" THAT is the hope I got from the movie.

[inactiveuser501 168]

sometimes i feel like people are too hung up on the name of the show as if the bottom line criterion for doing a movie is answering this question. im not saying man of steel would be a fun movie for them to do but i don't think the premise of the show is to literally answer the question, otherwise the batman and robin/wild wild west/twilight episodes should have been four seconds long

 

I think that the real question is How Did THIS Get Made? Because Batman and Robin, Wild Wild West, and even Catwoman can be considered attempts at money machines. The question is, why THIS? Why this bad? And expectations nonwithstanding, they weren't just going to slap anything together and call it Superman (Unlike Quest for Peace or Supergirl, both way more deserving candidates)

[seanotron 2307]

 

I don't know math.

 

If most people would consider only thousands of people dying instead of billions, a pretty big win, than that is pretty disturbing to me in and of itself. Preventing the worst case scenario isn't a triumph to me. When some crazy gunman or terrorist murders a bunch of people, I don't consider it a pretty big win when they're stopped before they could've killed even more people. Is "It could've been worse" really supposed to be the positive takeaway in this movie? Thanks to Superman only thousands died! Yay Superman! What a beacon of hope! The next time some bad guys come to our planet trying to kill us we have Superman here to protect us, and thousands might die but he'll make sure not evvvrybody dies!

 

Zack Snyder is very good at showing us cool things, and telling us what is supposed to be important in the movie, but I don't think he understands how to make a story reflect the themes he's beating us over the head with. Superman gives the people of earth no reason to have hope. Zack Snyder makes them hopeful in the end, but he didn't justify it with the events in the story.

 

But isn't this pretty much every superhero/myth ever? There's always tragedy before victory.

[PlanBFromOuterSpace 3138]

 

I think that the real question is How Did THIS Get Made? Because Batman and Robin, Wild Wild West, and even Catwoman can be considered attempts at money machines. The question is, why THIS? Why this bad? And expectations nonwithstanding, they weren't just going to slap anything together and call it Superman (Unlike Quest for Peace or Supergirl, both way more deserving candidates)

Exactly! I think I've mentioned that before, how it should be more about how something exists in the form we ultimately got it in. For instance, with "Batman and Robin", we know HOW it got made, but the real question was how the hell we ended up with a neon fucking nightmare of a feature-length toy commercial when the earlier installments didn't seem to indicate it'd be heading in such a direction. Bringing it back around to THIS particular franchise, it's interesting that the 80s-90s Batman franchise followed pretty much the same trajectory as the Superman one, at least in terms of where the ups-and-downs line up and where everything just goes off the rails. And then when "Superman Returns" rolled around, it wasn't the worst thing in the world, but after nearly two decades between Superman films, it was just NOT the movie we needed or expected. It's like, all the time it took and that's what we got? How did THAT get made?

[wakefresh 689]

 

I get what you're saying and I definitely don't think you're crazy. One thing I'd point out though is Metropolis is basically Manhattan, and Manhattan only has about 1 million and a half people in it, so no way were the casualties in the millions. Thousands, yes. The destruction was big, but it wasn't millions big. Metropolis is still there at the end, admittedly worse for wear. And I'm not trying to downplay thousands of people dying, that's awful. But in the end, he's saved literally BILLIONS of people. I think most people would consider that a pretty big win.

 

This is like saying all of the collateral deaths in Fast 6 are cool, because when Dom and the team stopped Ian Shaw from getting the component to make a bomb, they saved countless more lives than if Shaw HAD built the bomb and sold it to a terrorist.

 

For Superman's on-screen history -- from the 1950s til this movie -- Superman's on-screen character is seen as an idealistic boy scout. So now in 2013, Superman killing people is very jarring. it does seem weird.

[seanotron 2307]

sometimes i feel like people are too hung up on the name of the show as if the bottom line criterion for doing a movie is answering this question. im not saying man of steel would be a fun movie for them to do but i don't think the premise of the show is to literally answer the question, otherwise the batman and robin/wild wild west/twilight episodes should have been four seconds long

 

I think you're taking my statement too literally (or I was probably being too literal by referencing the 'license to print money' thing). I think the question IS always the most important thing, otherwise the podcast would just be 'Let's talk about movies!'. But more broadly - as IsiahER points out - it's how did THIS get made? How did THIS decision get made? How was THIS line in the script not removed? In Wild Wild West, how did they not think the weird racism would be off-putting? Or the the constant disabled jokes? What do giant spiders have to do with ANYTHING? In Batman & Robin, how did they not realize they had dialed the camp up too far? Etc., etc.

[seanotron 2307]

 

This is like saying all of the collateral deaths in Fast 6 are cool, because when Dom and the team stopped Ian Shaw from getting the component to make a bomb, they saved countless more lives than if Shaw HAD built the bomb and sold it to a terrorist.

 

For Superman's on-screen history -- from the 1950s til this movie -- Superman's on-screen character is seen as an idealistic boy scout. So now in 2013, Superman killing people is very jarring. it does seem weird.

 

Well, not exactly. In F&F, they're literally just having a blast and don't give a shit how it effects anyone. They don't even really care about the bomb, they just care about the pardons. Superman is facing off against dozens of superbeings who are arguably stronger and better fighters than he is. He's more or less at their mercy for most of the movie. In Superman 2, the villains have a reason to follow Superman out of the city, but here they really don't. They'll just kill everyone the minute he leaves.

 

I think Superman is open for reinterpretation just like any other superhero or mythic figure. And I think a big problem with the character in the past has been the fact that he's essentially perfect. He always saves everyone, he always does everything perfectly, he's always stronger or smarter than his opponents. I thought it was interesting to see an early, untested Superman who is facing off against foes that he's not 10-steps ahead of. That being said, I definitely think the destruction wrought here should carry over into the next movie. It would be interesting to see some people blaming Superman for what happened. To see Superman dealing with the aftermath of killing Zod and essentially destroying his own civilization. That sounds like the setup to an interesting story to me.

[imhatch 271]

 

I think you're taking my statement too literally (or I was probably being too literal by referencing the 'license to print money' thing). I think the question IS always the most important thing, otherwise the podcast would just be 'Let's talk about movies!'. But more broadly - as IsiahER points out - it's how did THIS get made? How did THIS decision get made? How was THIS line in the script not removed? In Wild Wild West, how did they not think the weird racism would be off-putting? Or the the constant disabled jokes? What do giant spiders have to do with ANYTHING? In Batman & Robin, how did they not realize they had dialed the camp up too far? Etc., etc.

yeah i clearly took it differently than your other post intended mb

[MechaScantenii 0]

Deleting post.

 

I did not mean to break any rules or anything. I really haven't read a whole lot on the boards. I just saw a bad movie and vented a little bit. I will try to make a effort to read a bit, and learn the rules, before I comment.

My bad...I was just tired...I didn't mean any offense... peace.

[inactiveuser501 168]

I'm really tempted to respond, but newbie, I'm going to guess that if the OP didn't start this, you would've.

 

This may seem very restrictive and mean-spirited, but can we just make it an unspoken rule that newbies can only start topics on nontheatrical releases. Just because we all know that World War Z, Elysium, or The Wolverine will be on the boards in a weeks time by "1 Posts"

[RyanSz 3140]

I'm really tempted to respond, but newbie, I'm going to guess that if the OP didn't start this, you would've.

 

This may seem very restrictive and mean-spirited, but can we just make it an unspoken rule that newbies can only start topics on nontheatrical releases. Just because we all know that World War Z, Elysium, or The Wolverine will be on the boards in a weeks time by "1 Posts"

 

That's what I wrote about in my first post on this thread as I started to notice a trend. I don't know if it's someone trolling using different accounts or what. And to be fair, I don't have high hopes for Z just on a CGI standpoint and how much it strays from the source material, but it would have to be a fail of "After Earth" proportions for me to start a thread on it.

[seanotron 2307]

Deleting post.

 

I did not mean to break any rules or anything. I really haven't read a whole lot on the boards. I just saw a bad movie and vented a little bit. I will try to make a effort to read a bit, and learn the rules, before I comment.

My bad...I was just tired...I didn't mean any offense... peace.

 

I think people are just a bit sensitive to this lately as it seems there have been tons of threads started on movies that really don't fit the bill for the podcast. But by all means, if you didn't like Man of Steel feel free to share your thoughts on it. You shouldn't feel pressured to delete a post just because it's not a popular opinion. There really are no hard-and-fast rules around here, so don't feel like you did something wrong, you absolutely did not.

[Shannon 2953]

Yeah, I don't delete suggestion threads just because they wouldn't be a popular choice.

 

Y'all are free to discuss whatever movies you please, surprising as they may be.

 

 

No worries my babies.

[inactiveuser501 168]

Seeing as my post set it off, let me extend an apology. Ever since FYI went live, we've had Oscar-Nominees and flavors of the week nominated left and right by people who say nothing beyond "You guys need to talk about this immediately!"

 

It's an imperfect system, and I'm sorry if I scared you off. I've had my share of ranting (The 'Spice World' incident of 2013), so feel free to to do the same!

[seanotron 2307]

Seeing as my post set it off, let me extend an apology. Ever since FYI went live, we've had Oscar-Nominees and flavors of the week nominated left and right by people who say nothing beyond "You guys need to talk about this immediately!"

 

It's an imperfect system, and I'm sorry if I scared you off. I've had my share of ranting (The 'Spice World' incident of 2013), so feel free to to do the same!

 

I think we all remember the dark times of SpiceGate.