EPISODE 193 — Into the Thunderdome

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

There's nothing wrong with liking the work of problematic people. I like Kozelek's music. I also love Miles Davis (wife beater), Michael Jackson (child molester), Caravaggio (murderer), Phil Spector (murderer), Gesualdo (murderered his wife and infant child), and so on, all of them immeasurably worse people than Kozelek. But no one gets a pass just because I like their stuff. If they do or say something fucked up, I'm going to say it was fucked up and they shouldn't do that.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

that was a joke pf. c'mon.

Aren't jokes supposed to be funny

[Blink 1844]

Am I going to be disappointed in the opinions on this episode, changs?

 

Edit: From reading some of this thread, it seems like I'd be better off skipping this episode. Luckily, Matt's pretty serious about "case closed" meaning something isn't brought up again.

[Noah 89]

that was a joke pf. c'mon.

 

lllaaaasssttt

ppppoooosssstttttttttttttttt

Your "I'm so above this debate, I'm going to type sloppy and deflect arguments with 'jokes' and insults" schtick is bad and not at all amusing. Besser can express some really toxic and stupid points of view but at least he is funny. You are just toxic and stupid.

[souprman 10477]

the stars don't shine upon us

we're in the way of their light.

[souprman 10477]

Your "I'm so above this debate, I'm going to type sloppy and deflect arguments with 'jokes' and insults" schtick is bad and not at all amusing. Besser can express some really toxic and stupid points of view but at least he is funny. You are just toxic and stupid.

i don't know who i've insulted too badly here. i've taken a bit myself so i guess it's about even.

 

you however are clearly very funny so i'll defer to you on that one.

[clams 242]

Great ep!, Andy Daly is a magnificent hooman. Can't wait for more Review episodes, great show!

 

 

Though I don't mind the case closed segments, I kinda wish they were a separate minisode or something so the thread isn't filled with shit posts.

[Lukas Holmes 2287]

Your "I'm so above this debate, I'm going to type sloppy and deflect arguments with 'jokes' and insults" schtick is bad and not at all amusing. Besser can express some really toxic and stupid points of view but at least he is funny. You are just toxic and stupid.

 

The last post, laaaassssttt possssstttt...made me laugh. Am I a bad person?

[KyleCrusoe 16]

Sir Noah brings up some pretty irrelevant points to this argument. Let me help you focus m'lord.

 

I feel like argument as to whether this incident was or was not misogynistic was only addressed by Souprman.

In order to label something as misogynistic, it needs to meet some very simple criteria:

 

To show, imply, or endorse a dislike or hatred of women.

 

This definition leaves the proof of burden up to Participants A and B. In order to sufficiently meet the criteria of misogynistic, these participants must successfully argue that:

 

1) SKM consistently expresses or feels a dislike or hatred of women.

 

And,

 

2)SKM expresses this dislike or hatred at a HIGHER RATE toward women, than to men.

 

While participant B addressed the first criterian with some degree of success, he fell flat when he was unable to address the second.

 

IN CONCLUSION:

While SKM is an agreed upon asshole, the parties involved were unable to successfully argue that SKM actions were misogynistic.

 

 

 

http://www.lddebate.net/

 

Before anyone goes on about how I may "take this blah blah blah" too seriously, Ill go ahead and let you know that I do.

Women's rights and equality are the goals, and I am a firm believer that the false causalities demonstrated are harmful to our shared success.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

2)SKM expresses this dislike or hatred at a HIGHER RATE toward women, than to men.

Your premise is wrong. Misogyny isn't oppression of women more than men, it's oppression of women because they're women. By using gendered language and harmful stereotypes about women to insult and punish, Kozelek is de facto endorsing misogyny. Ergo, misogynist.

[illuminatedwax 59]

Thank you so much to Matt Besser and improv4humans for letting me be a part of this! As part of that gratitude, I won't debate the points anymore, because as Master Blaster says, Case Closed means the case is closed.

 

Sorry to everyone who thinks I didn't do a good job representing their side. Doing a call-in comedy show with 2 other callers AND 4 funny comedians is tough -- I wanted to let Kate and souprman talk and not hog the discourse, and I didn't want to talk over the host and the people actually being funny. There was a lot more that I had to say, but I said "thank you" before I heard Matt ask for final thoughts, and it really sounded like they wanted to wrap up, so I let it go. I sent souprman the rest of my thoughts in a PM, though.

 

That said, listening back to it, I think I made the points I wanted to make, particularly in my opening statement. I think any more debating would have just been picking apart and re-explaining what I had already said, and probably even more boring to the people that didn't like the segment. I wish I had studied more into the realities of what the journalist actually did while getting an interview, but even if you assume she acted as is stated in the podcast, my position wouldn't change one bit. While I would love to spend more time talking to Matt to clarify what I was trying to say, we're not gonna solve sexism in a comedy podcast. So while I wasn't on the ball as much as I could've been, I don't regret the experience at all.

 

PS To those people saying it was "wasted" on such a stacked cast, you realize that Case Closed episodes usually go like half an hour longer, right? I don't think we missed out on any comedy.

[Shannon 2953]

REMINDER: I only have one rule on the Earwolf forums, no personal attacks against hosts, guests, or other posters.

 

If you cannot make your argument without resorting to name-calling, then you need to find somewhere else to post.

 

Carry on...

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

2)SKM expresses this dislike or hatred at a HIGHER RATE toward women, than to men.

This premise also lends itself to the bullshit "equal opportunity offender" defense--misandry and misogyny are not even remotely the same, which should be obvious to everyone since yall all claim to care so much about context. How's this for context: misogyny is one of the oldest, deepest values in human civilization. The Greek philosophers were incredibly misogynist. The Old Testament is rank with misogyny. It permeates basically every aspect of our society, history/law/commerce/politics/art/all of it. Misogyny is human civilization's original sin. Misandry is some minor bullshit that insecure chumps have since time immemorial blown way out of proportion or more often straight up invented to scare other insecure chumps into supporting their fucked up feelings toward women.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

Though I don't mind the case closed segments, I kinda wish they were a separate minisode or something so the thread isn't filled with shit posts.

Doesn't that describe every thread ever?

[KyleCrusoe 16]

This premise also lends itself to the bullshit "equal opportunity offender" defense--misandry and misogyny are not even remotely the same, which should be obvious to everyone since yall all claim to care so much about context. How's this for context: misogyny is one of the oldest, deepest values in human civilization. The Greek philosophers were incredibly misogynist. The Old Testament is rank with misogyny. It permeates basically every aspect of our society, history/law/commerce/politics/art/all of it. Misogyny is human civilization's original sin. Misandry is some minor bullshit that insecure chumps have since time immemorial blown way out of proportion or more often straight up invented to scare other insecure chumps into supporting their fucked up feelings toward women.

You're clearly not arguing about this episode any more.

 

At least we have reached an "agree to disagree" moment.

The equal opportunity offender concept is something I very much agree with: That if you are an asshole to everyone, you can't be picked on for being an asshole to one person in particular.

[KyleCrusoe 16]

Let's be realistic though. Those who are arguing that SKM is a misogynist aren't actually interested in HELPING him understand why his words may be inexcusably offensive.

 

So aren't you really just looking for someone to rage against?

[BrettMorris 1862]

thank you to everyone who had the courage to come on the show and defend your POV. it's not an easy task. i really think it's lame that anyone would criticize your "performance" after the fact. all were welcome and invited to join, only a few did and thus they had the final word, and the case should now be closed.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

You're clearly not arguing about this episode any more.

Pretty sure "what's up with misogyny" is not a topic that you can really limit to a single episode of a comedy podcast, try as we might to close the case. (Sorry Brett.)

 

The equal opportunity offender concept is something I very much agree with: That if you are an asshole to everyone, you can't be picked on for being an asshole to one person in particular.

Being an asshole is the not the same as being offensive. Kozelek didn't just call Snapes an annoying nosy asshole, he called her a bitch. The former would have been fine and I'd be on Kozelek's side if that's what he'd said.

 

Let's be realistic though. Those who are arguing that SKM is a misogynist aren't actually interested in HELPING him understand why his words may be inexcusably offensive.

I don't really care whether he understands why it was offensive. I just want him (and everyone else) to stop being offensive. It's not my job to save his soul.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

So aren't you really just looking for someone to rage against?

And what, you're not? Isn't that why you stepped in to say your piece? Isn't that what people have always done? That's another tangent I wish we'd had the time/inclination to go down--the idea that people enjoy being aggressively self-righteous is not a new thing that only exists because of the internet. People have always been like that.

[saddlebags 581]

As much as I like and respect Matt, (and agree with his politics) these case closed episodes always leave me a little disappointed in him.

[Blink 1844]

I guess I'll have to overcome my paralyzing anxiety to get on the next case closed so my opinion can matter.

[souprman 10477]

I guess I'll have to overcome my paralyzing anxiety to get on the next case closed so my opinion can matter.

spoiler alert> mine still doesn't.

[burtburt 108]

lol all this arguement over how offensive some guitar person is, on the forum for a podcast that literally had the title 'dots and feathers' for an ep less than a month ago

 

weird brah

[Listing Listener 11]

As someone who has enjoyed the music of sun kil moon and Mark Kozalek for years this was a mighty strange listen. This guy makes very deep sad intense intimate tunes. They are very personal and his skill with a guitar is in its own class. He has toured on his own for decades and put out the majority of his music himself. From what I've learned all this work and dedication to his art basically affords him a house in San Francisco. He's really about as real and intimate and accomplished and dedicated a working class musician as you could hope to find.

 

Having listened to his music and feeling that I've soaked up at least some of the man's personality I could certainly see how someone who has worked as hard as he has and continues to work as hard as he does and who writes songs about very personal aspects of his life has very very little patience for a journalist who is behaving like a disrespectful and uninformed bully and provocateur. His outburst is not surprising.

I can't say I really care about defining wether or not he is a mysogonist at all-however if you are going to have it I think the discussion also must include a debate of who Mark Kozalek is and that the journalist behaved as a bully.

 

As a fan of his I can say it has not one iota of impact on me enjoying his music. The man deserves his due recognition

[Poika 615]

For anyone thinking about not listening to this particular episode because the comments in this thread are scaring you away- the case closed portion of the episode was far more civil than anything that is taking place on the boards here. Plus, this episode was a classic!

 

Another point that I wanted to make is that I (as in me personally, not as in you all should feel the same way) think that there is a pretty big difference between an atheist being a curmudgeon about a holy roller football player and the righteous indignation of people who think they know the right and wrong time to use certain words they don't like.

 

I really appreciated the bully argument more than anything and thought it did a good job of framing the discussion. One can use a plethora of words to insult someone, some more severe than others, but sometimes we all have to wonder if, by bullying, we're curing a headache by chopping off the head. The same could be said of some of the back and forth about this entire subject.