Musical Mondays-Week 2-Hairspray

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

Can you "stop the beat" or is it an unstoppable killing machine out to destroy us all? Discuss.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Knowing how beloved John Waters' original movie is, I made sure to do my due diligence and watch it before I watched this. And while I really liked the original, and would never dream of disputing its place as an all time classic, I think I found the Musical, ultimately, more enjoyable. Whereas the original was able to elicit the occasional grin, the musical gave me quite a few genuine, and unexpected, laugh out loud moments. However, even though I think I liked it more, I'm not sure that makes itself a "classic." Does that make sense?

 

I liked that in the Musical, while maybe losing some of the subtlety of the original, fleshed out some of the characters a bit more--especially Link, Maybelle, Edna, and Wilbur (although, I'm not sure if the "joke shop seduction" scene was absolutely necessary). I really liked how Link had to wrestle a bit between his beliefs and his career. In the original, he's just on board from the get-go which seems a bit...abrupt. I also liked that it gave a lot more agency to Motormouth Maybelle. In my opinion, Tracy comes off as a little bit too much of a "great white hope" character, and it was nice to see Maybelle take charge in this version.

 

However, this isn't to say the Musical isn't without its flaws...

 

For instance, I really didn't like the cartoon-ish way they portrayed Edna's weight as a joke--particularly the scene at the record shop. I'm supposed to believe this concerned mother is going to forget all her worries about her daughter because of some "braised" meat? Not to mention, that in the original, it's Penny's mother who goes down there which makes waaaaaaay more sense.

 

As far as the music was concerned, I really enjoyed it. There were a couple of numbers where my mind wondered a bit, but overall I thought it quite good. If I had to pick a favorite, I think I liked "(You're) Timeless to Me" the most.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpiUk_EDZy0

[tomspanks 9039]

(You're) Timeless to Me was my favorite scene (maybe not necessarily my favorite song). Sorry for repeating, but Christopher Walken is so endearing in this scene. It's the little things that he does, like the way he looks at her or his little shimmies. Also, it cracks me up when Edna sings "so you'll wear a wig, while I roast a pig" and Christopher Walken says "I love pig" while laughing.

 

I didn't get the sense that the musical was making fun of Edna's weight. If anything, I could relate to her love of pork products.

 

BUT, what was going on with Travolta's accent? Is this how people really speak in Baltimore?

[Cameron H. 23786]

(You're) Timeless to Me was my favorite scene (maybe not necessarily my favorite song). Sorry for repeating, but Christopher Walken is so endearing in this scene. It's the little things that he does, like the way he looks at her or his little shimmies. Also, it cracks me up when Edna sings "so you'll wear a wig, while I roast a pig" and Christopher Walken says "I love pig" while laughing.

 

I didn't get the sense that the musical was making fun of Edna's weight. If anything, I could relate to her love of pork products.

 

BUT, what was going on with Travolta's accent? Is this how people really speak in Baltimore?

 

You're right. For 90% of the movie I think she was performed perfectly well. It was just that one scene that bugged me. Everything up until that point was fine, but they basically had her salivating over that food like a goddamn Tex Avery wolf.

 

 

It just came off as a bit tone deaf to me. Even though Tracy was never in danger, that scene was basically saying she loves food more than her daughter's well-being. I like pork too, but if I was legitimately worried about one of my sons' safety, I feel like I could rein that in a bit.

 

Otherwise, I loved the character--in both versions.

 

Accent-wise...I guess that was a choice, and a damn fine one at that. I was all in at, "How am I supposed to negotiate pleats?"

 

ETA: Also, you're right about "Timeless." Best scene, not song.

[tomspanks 9039]

That Tex Avery gif is perfect.

 

Something that I didn't get - why were there only black kids in detention except for Tracy? Also, after detention, Tracy ends up back in class. Is there usually detention during normal school hours?

[Cameron H. 23786]

That Tex Avery gif is perfect.

 

Something that I didn't get - why were there only black kids in detention except for Tracy? Also, after detention, Tracy ends up back in class. Is there usually detention during normal school hours?

 

I took it as a commentary on the disproportionate amount of Black people incarcerated as opposed to White people--especially during the Sixties.

 

I'm not too sure about detention during the day, but I know in the original film she is sent to a "Special Ed" homeroom, so it might just be a carry over from that. Maybe when they were writing the Musical they didn't feel comfortable with saying that the school felt that being Black was the equivalent of having a mental handicap... Which, is a bit too forgiving of the writer. It's like they wanted to show how racist and awful the White people were, but were still trying to say, "But that weren't THAT bad." Which, in terms of the social commentary, I think is kind of a cop out...

[taylor anne photo 11311]

 

I took it as a commentary on the disproportionate amount of Black people incarcerated as opposed to White people--especially during the Sixties.

 

I'm not too sure about detention during the day, but I know in the original film she is sent to a "Special Ed" homeroom, so it might just be a carry over from that. Maybe when they were writing the Musical they didn't feel comfortable with saying that the school felt that being Black was the equivalent of having a mental handicap... Which, is a bit too forgiving of the writer. It's like they wanted to show how racist and awful the White people were, but were still trying to say, "But that weren't THAT bad." Which. In terms of the social commentary, I think is kind of a cop out...

That's one of the issues I have with the musical over the original. I remember seeing that and being rather angry that they were sugarcoating the bull shit black students went through when the schools were finally integrated. I agree that Queen Latifah's Maybelle is a much stronger character in the musical but I still feel like the message as a whole was stronger in the original. John Waters did not feel the need to sugarcoat anything while still keeping it campy and fun.

 

I also think they very much play Edna's weight off for laughs throughout the musical as well as the whole "man in a dress" aspect. When it was Divine it wasn't just a man in a dress. Divine was a known figure for cross-dressing and to have her in that part was groundbreakingly amazing. To me, John Travolta being in that part shows how little our society understands the LGBTQ+ community. Divine wasn't there for laughs, but it felt like Travolta was.

 

There is a sort of detention during school hours. You can have lunch detention or ISS (In School Suspension) as punishment during school.

[Cameron H. 23786]

That's one of the issues I have with the musical over the original. I remember seeing that and being rather angry that they were sugarcoating the bull shit black students went through when the schools were finally integrated. I agree that Queen Latifah's Maybelle is a much stronger character in the musical but I still feel like the message as a whole was stronger in the original. John Waters did not feel the need to sugarcoat anything while still keeping it campy and fun.

 

I also think they very much play Edna's weight off for laughs throughout the musical as well as the whole "man in a dress" aspect. When it was Divine it wasn't just a man in a dress. Divine was a known figure for cross-dressing and to have her in that part was groundbreakingly amazing. To me, John Travolta being in that part shows how little our society understands the LGBTQ+ community. Divine wasn't there for laughs, but it felt like Travolta was.

 

CAUTION: Controversial Opinion Coming Up!

 

I don't know that I agree with you on the Travolta thing. I thought he was utterly charming as Edna. In fact, I thought this might be one of his best performances--ever. Never was I thinking, "there's Travolta in drag," I was thinking "this poor woman has had it rough." As I stated before, I loved "Timeless," not because I was laughing at Travolta, but because the relationship between her and Wilbur is so sweet and real and tragic and joyous. Don't get me wrong, I loved Divine in the original, but I didn't get the same pathos I got from the Edna in the Musical. I feel like Travolta embodied Edna, while in the original, Divine was pretty much just there to be the "mother" character. And while she was married to Wilbur, I just didn't get the same sense of "relationship" that they shared in the Musical. So while, on a real world level, the casting Divine in that role was absolutely groundbreaking, I just don't think she ever really lost herself in the role--perhaps she wasn't able to... And, as weird as this might sound, I think the fact that she played both Edna and Arvin Hodgepile in the original, just makes the casting in that movie seem more like a gimmick. She should have just played the mother and the World would just have to accept that--end of story.

 

Ultimately, to me, Edna as a character just had a much more satisfying arc in the Musical. But that's just my opinion. I'm not trying to tear anyone down just to lift someone else up. And if I ever were, that person certainly wouldn't be John Travolta. I just have to hand it to him, that's all.

[tomspanks 9039]

I also thought Travolta's Edna was lovely (except for the choosing braised meat over her daughter's safety thing).

 

I do think the facial prosthetics made him appear wooden at times, so maybe his eyes had to do the heavy lifting. That scene after she successfully negotiated the contract for Tracy, she's wearing a new sparkly dress and feeling on top of the world, and the look in her eyes when Velma destroys her with a simple "you'll stop traffic" - good lord, my heart broke for her.

[Cameron H. 23786]

That scene after she successfully negotiated the contract for Tracy, she's wearing a new sparkly dress and feeling on top of the world, and the look in her eyes when Velma destroys her with a simple "you'll stop traffic" - good lord, my heart broke for her.

 

Oh God, yes! That hurt.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

CAUTION: Controversial Opinion Coming Up!

 

I don't know that I agree with you on the Travolta thing. I thought he was utterly charming as Edna. In fact, I thought this might be one of his best performances--ever. Never was I thinking, "there's Travolta in drag," I was thinking "this poor woman has had it rough." As I stated before, I loved "Timeless," not because I was laughing at Travolta, but because the relationship between her and Wilbur is so sweet and real and tragic and joyous. Don't get me wrong, I loved Divine in the original, but I didn't get the same pathos I got from the Edna in the Musical. I feel like Travolta embodied Edna, while in the original, Divine was pretty much just there to be the "mother" character. And while she was married to Wilbur, I just didn't get the same sense of "relationship" that they shared in the Musical. So while, on a real world level, the casting Divine in that role was absolutely groundbreaking, I just don't think she ever really lost herself in the role--perhaps she wasn't able to... And, as weird as this might sound, I think the fact that she played both Edna and Arvin Hodgepile in the original, just makes the casting in that movie seem more like a gimmick. She should have just played the mother and the World would just have to accept that--end of story.

 

Ultimately, to me, Edna as a character, just had a much more satisfying arc in the Musical. But that's just my opinion. I'm not trying to tear anyone down just to lift someone else up. And if I ever were, that person certainly wouldn't be John Travolta. I just have to hand it to him, that's all.

I will relent that the character development in the musical is more satisfying but I still think I prefer Divine in the role. Travolta really did give it his all and not once did I feel like he wasn't taking the role seriously, but in the actual casting part I didn't get the sense that the studio understood what Waters was trying to do with Divine. Also maybe it's because when this came out I have very clear memories of everyone talking about how John Travolta is playing a woman like it was the biggest damn deal ever (like how they still do when a straight cis person play trans or gay/lesbian and even if they aren't great actors they get an oscar thrown at them for being so brave) and honestly I didn't think it was that big of a deal? He's just playing the part he was casted to play. But it felt like people were seeing this typical "man's-man" in a fat suit playing a female role and acting like it was funny. I really don't have anything bad to say about him but just the choices made in the casting and writing of the character. Seriously that meat thing really was rough.

 

Like a modern example that I love is Louie Anderson is Baskets. It could EASILY go to the "oh it's a man in the dress" kind of jokes but he's just playing Zach's mom and fucking kills it every time.

 

Also the musical movie is extremely faithful to the Broadway version so I guess I can just say all my issues lie with that lol. But yeah I think that because I feel more tied to the original over the musical it will color my opinions about everything lol. Believe me, I am happy that y'all disagree with me! I don't want people to look at Edna like she's a joke.

[tomspanks 9039]

taylor anne photo, who would you cast as Edna in the musical?

 

I consider the original movie and the musical as different, separate things. The original is a classic and everyone should watch it. That said, I enjoyed the musical more. It was just full of joy and made me happy

[taylor anne photo 11311]

They are definitely very different things. I think I'm genuinely over-analyzing the whole thing lol.

 

That being said, I think I would cast a drag queen, like Delta Work, for the role, or maybe someone like Eddie Izzard, who is very out about his cross-dressing. Probably not specifically Eddie because I don't know how good his Baltimore accent is lol but someone like him would be my choice.

 

Maybe that makes it gimmicky maybe it doesn't idk. I just felt a tie to the casting of Divine in the 88 movie and maybe that was the young queer girl finding solace in these John Waters classics where everything was out of the norm for its time.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Taylor Anne, a couple times now you've written that you don't think the studio got what was "trying to do with Divine," and that very well may be (although, as you've said, a lot of this was preestablished), but without asking Waters himself, I would guess what he was "trying to do" is normalize the idea that a cross-dressing man should be viewed and treated without judgement. If that's the case, then the fact that people like myself can watch this movie without seeing the man behind the makeup, but just the character herself, then I think this movie does a good job. It's also why I didn't like Divine's dual role in the original as it undermines this goal.

 

I mean, I get where you're coming from from a representation stand point, but as long as the role isn't making the joke "it's a man dressed as a woman" then I feel like it's at least a step in the right direction--even if it isn't the final step toward universal tolerance and acceptance.

 

As to another one of your points, I was unaware of the hoopla surrounding Travolra's casting. I can only say, I hope that at least some of the people who viewed it as a joke were able to realize how not a big deal it actually was and that's kind of what the Big Deal afterall. Lol. I kind of think of it like The Birdcage. I feel like it was kind of a big deal when Robin Williams was cast in that, like, "Ha ha- he's playing a gay guy," but when you watch that movie, the joke is never "he's gay." I guess what I'm trying to say is, as distasteful as it may be, does having a cis gendered actor playing a non-heteronormative role, ultimately help society as a whole come to a more tolerant minset?

 

Does anyone know how Waters feels about the Musical? I imagine pretty positive since he agreed to it being done in the first place and even provided a cameo, but that's just my guess.

 

(Please forgive me for any typos or weird jumps in logic. I'm typing this on a tablet, in bed, at 2:30 in the morning. Hopefully, I'm making something close to sense, or that I'm at least coherency adjacent. Good night, everyone! Talk to you tomorrow!)

[taylor anne photo 11311]

Taylor Anne, a couple times now you've written that you don't think the studio got what was "trying to do with Divine," and that very well may be (although, as you've said, a lot of this was preestablished), but without asking Waters himself, I would guess what he was "trying to do" is normalize the idea that a cross-dressing man should be viewed and treated without judgement. If that's the case, then the fact that people like myself can watch this movie without seeing the man behind the makeup, but just the character herself, then I think this movie does a good job. It's also why I didn't like Divine's dual role in the original as it undermines this goal.

 

I mean, I get where you're coming from from a representation stand point, but as long as the role isn't making the joke "it's a man dressed as a woman" then I feel like it's at least a step in the right direction--even if it isn't the final step toward universal tolerance and acceptance.

 

As to another one of your points, I was unaware of the hoopla surrounding Travolra's casting. I can only say, I hope that at least some of the people who viewed it as a joke were able to realize how not a big deal it actually was and that's kind of what the Big Deal afterall. Lol. I kind of think of it like I]The Birdcage.[/i] I feel like it was kind of a big deal when Robin Williams was cast in that, like, "Ha ha- he's playing a gay guy," but when you watch that movie, the joke is never "he's gay." I guess what I'm trying to say is, as distasteful as it may be, does having a cis gendered actor playing a non-heteronormative role, ultimately help society as a whole come to a more tolerant minset?

 

Does anyone know how Waters feels about the Musical? I imagine pretty positive since he agreed to it being done in the first place and even provided a cameo, but that's just my guess.

 

(Please forgive me for any typos or weird jumps in logic. I'm typing this on a tablet, in bed, at 2:30 in the morning. Hopefully, I'm making something close to sense, or that I'm at least coherency adjacent. Good night, everyone! Talk to you tomorrow!)

You're very right. I think I'm putting some putting some of my own feelings about representation, and things I heard around the time this came out, in to the role. I do feel like that's exactly what Waters was trying to do. Force the world to realize that these kind of people exist and they're normal.

 

I mean it's not the problem with cis gendered men playing the role, if we're being technical then Divine, Eddie Izzard, and Delta Work are all cis gendered men who put on women's clothes for either their own satisfaction or entertainment purposes. Still I do think you're right and I'm not thinking about it at the right angle.

 

I think what I was trying to say all along was that John Waters gave Divine the chance to be in that role in 1988 and that really was groundbreaking. She wasn't just playing the part of a woman because Divine genuinely loved wearing women's clothes. But to me, yes while it still is normalizing the man in a dress role, Travolta didn't feel as impactful because at the end of the day we know he took the dress and the fat suit off and went home. Am I overthinking it? Damn fucking straight because that's what I always do lol.

 

To your point though about cis gendered men playing these kinds of roles (and I guess cis gendered women playing masculine or male roles), yes and no. This is really where things can get a bit blurry in fact. There are a crazy amount of LGBTQ+ actors out there who get turned down for roles time and time again and then they get handed to people like Eddie Redmayne and Jared Leto, who were both showered with praise when I felt like they're performances were both extremely mediocre compared to other things I've seen in recent years. And then we have on the other end people like Laverne Cox and Jamie Clayton who are transgender and play transgender and are amaaazing in their respective shows! Movie studios don't seem to want to give them a chance to play these kinds of roles. Someone once said that would that really be considered acting, though, and like I'm blown away at how fucking stupid that question really is. Straight cis people play straight cis parts all the time and no one asks them whether or not they're acting. LGBTQ+ people play straight parts and no one throws Oscars at them (like lbr here Ellen Page should get an award for acting like she was in love with Michael Cera.)

 

And even still actors like Louie Anderson and Jeffrey Tambor are both amazing in their respective roles as well. I think the difference is here that these shows and actors respect the communities they're representing. Transparent has a ton of LGBTQ+ people actually working for the show and you can honestly see it on screen whether the lead actor is cis or not. It's a beautiful show!

 

Anyway I got really off topic there and probably just made zero sense! John Waters would probably tell me to stfu about it cause it's his intellectual property and that's that lol.

 

(I also apologize for any typos and things that genuinely just don't make any fucking sense because I've been up since 5:30 with a terrible cold and I can't take nyquil cause I'll sleep through my work alarm)

[Cameron H. 23786]

(I also apologize for any typos and things that genuinely just don't make any fucking sense because I've been up since 5:30 with a terrible cold and I can't take nyquil cause I'll sleep through my work alarm)

 

I'm sorry you're sick, and I hope you feel better soon

 

I get where you're coming from, and as always, it's not too far off from where I'm at--although I suspect some of my male, white privilege might be seeping (unintentionally) through. It's easy from my position to say, "Yeah, but it's better than it was" and not consider how far we still need to go. So if I ever come off like an insensitive asshole, please know that's truly coming from a place of ignorance, but I want to be and understand better.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

I'm sorry you're sick, and I hope you feel better soon

 

I get where you're coming from, and as always, it's not too far off from where I'm at--although I suspect some of my male, white privilege might be seeping (unintentionally) through. It's easy from my position to say, "Yeah, but it's better than it was" and not consider how far we still need to go. So if I ever come off like an insensitive asshole, please know that's truly coming from a place of ignorance, but I want to be and understand better.

Thanks! I hope I do too!

 

Honestly I don't know everything lol. I may be a bi girl but I still have white cis privilege as well so there's a lot of things I will never be able to understand. Clearly I try to speak up for all perspectives lol but if I come off as a know-it-all bitch please know that I am also not trying to come from that kind of place.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Thanks! I hope I do too!

 

Honestly I don't know everything lol. I may be a bi girl but I still have white cis privilege as well so there's a lot of things I will never be able to understand. Clearly I try to speak up for all perspectives lol but if I come off as a know-it-all bitch please know that I am also not trying to come from that kind of place.

 

[pepperjack 303]

There is a Baltimore accent. That might not be it, but I give him credit for trying.

 

This is what a local accent sounds like, this woman shows up a lot in the Wire, I think, because her accent is natural:

 

https://youtu.be/WqnqJskL6O4

[pepperjack 303]

hired by the caaaaaaunty.

 

*side note, Prez is played by Jim True-Frost, who was the 'hey buddy' elevator guy in Hudsucker Proxy.

[tomspanks 9039]

They are definitely very different things. I think I'm genuinely over-analyzing the whole thing lol.

 

That being said, I think I would cast a drag queen, like Delta Work, for the role, or maybe someone like Eddie Izzard, who is very out about his cross-dressing. Probably not specifically Eddie because I don't know how good his Baltimore accent is lol but someone like him would be my choice.

 

Maybe that makes it gimmicky maybe it doesn't idk. I just felt a tie to the casting of Divine in the 88 movie and maybe that was the young queer girl finding solace in these John Waters classics where everything was out of the norm for its time.

 

I came here for the bad movies, but stayed for the over-analyzing. I've enjoyed and appreciated reading the diverse opinions here, which often surprises me and makes me reconsider my original thoughts. I've read your posts in this thread several times (to over-analyze your over-analyzing) and I think I get where you're coming from. Divine in Hairspray is special to you and you probably feel protective, understandably. Also, as there are very few quality LGBTQ+ representation in entertainment, the role of Edna in the musical version could have been one more opportunity for an LGBTQ+ actor. But, I hope you know that even though I liked Travolta's Edna, it doesn't mean I think any less of how important Divine's Edna is in cinematic history.

 

Okay, on a different note (see what I did there?), I can't decide which I like more, Good Morning Baltimore or You Can't Stop the Beat.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

I came here for the bad movies, but stayed for the over-analyzing. I've enjoyed and appreciated reading the diverse opinions here, which often surprises me and makes me reconsider my original thoughts. I've read your posts in this thread several times (to over-analyze your over-analyzing) and I think I get where you're coming from. Divine in Hairspray is special to you and you probably feel protective, understandably. Also, as there are very few quality LGBTQ+ representation in entertainment, the role of Edna in the musical version could have been one more opportunity for an LGBTQ+ actor. But, I hope you know that even though I liked Travolta's Edna, it doesn't mean I think any less of how important Divine's Edna is in cinematic history.

 

Okay, on a different note (see what I did there?), I can't decide which I like more, Good Morning Baltimore or You Can't Stop the Beat.

 

I'm not sure either...it definitely begins and ends on a high note. I was going to say "Good Morning, Baltimore," but as soon as I wrote that I second guessed it. So I guess I like "You Can't Stop the Beat" more.

 

(I guess don't watch this video if you haven't finished the movie yet)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZnt-0fEiT0

 

Also, to talk about different actors, I loved pretty much everyone in this movie. I thought it was amazingly well cast. I also read that James Marsden beat out Hugh Jackman for the role of Corny Collins. Way to go, Cyclops!

 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

 

I came here for the bad movies, but stayed for the over-analyzing. I've enjoyed and appreciated reading the diverse opinions here, which often surprises me and makes me reconsider my original thoughts. I've read your posts in this thread several times (to over-analyze your over-analyzing) and I think I get where you're coming from. Divine in Hairspray is special to you and you probably feel protective, understandably. Also, as there are very few quality LGBTQ+ representation in entertainment, the role of Edna in the musical version could have been one more opportunity for an LGBTQ+ actor. But, I hope you know that even though I liked Travolta's Edna, it doesn't mean I think any less of how important Divine's Edna is in cinematic history.

 

Okay, on a different note (see what I did there?), I can't decide which I like more, Good Morning Baltimore or You Can't Stop the Beat.

I never ever EVER thought that of you or Cameron! Seriously I like that y'all disagreed with me! It means that maybe I really truly am over-analyzing that role, because y'all didn't see Edna as joke! There are sooo many things I do love about the musical but I just had the misfortune of seeing the John Waters movie first and keeping that close to my heart lol.

 

Both of those songs are so damn catchy but I'll always love You Can't Stop the Beat the most! We sang it in high school so it's got a special place in my heart lol.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I will say this whole Musical Mondays thing is going to end up costing me a fortune in soundtracks. So far, I'm two for two on buying the soundtrack after watching the movie. Tomspanks, I'm counting on you to pick something awful for next week....

[tomspanks 9039]

Also, to talk about different actors, I loved pretty much everyone in this movie. I thought it was amazingly well cast. I also read that James Marsden beat out Hugh Jackman for the role of Corny Collins. Way to go, Cyclops!

 

I'm so glad Marsden got it. He's adorable.

 

 

This move. So very Corny.

 

 

I also like Inez's chicken/bird dance, for a lack of a better description, at the end. I can't find a gif of that though.

 

 

 

Plus, Hugh Jackman will always be Curly to me.

 

I have a few candidates for next week, but unfortunately they all come with catchy songs, so I'm no help.