FisterRoboto 7499 Posted August 6, 2017 WARNING: CISGENDER WHITE MALE OPINIONS ON FEMINISM AHEAD!  The Bechdel Test being the most prominent measure for feminism in media and art (or at least movies) is problematic at best. Sure, it is one useful tool to measure how women are being represented, but it definitely does not tell the whole picture (as other, more intelligent people on this board have already pointed out). It would be like going to a doctor for a physical and getting your blood pressure measured, then the doctor clapping his hands together and saying, "Well, that's all you need to know! My work is done here!" If Hard Ticket to Hawaii passes the Bechdel Test, it is only a function of the film attempting to achieve a Maximum Tits-Per-Minute ratio, thereby necessitating making its leads a pair of, I believe the academic term is, "Chesty Broads." If, say, a romance film doesn't pass the Bechdel test... well, that's probably because a romance film is about relationships so EVERY conversation is going to be about the object of that character's affection. Obviously, a well-rounded character will have more things to talk about than the object of his or her desire. The Bechdel test is definitely useful when, if it were applied to men (do men have conversations with each other that aren't about women?), and it passes muster in that context but fails when traditionally applied, then we have a fucking problem, no matter the genre of movie, action schlock or romance.  When applied to something like Fun Home, the work Allison Bechdel herself is most known for... it doesn't really pass. Fun Home is about her childhood and her relationship with her father, how dominating her father was in that ironically named childhood home hers. So of course it doesn't pass the Bechdel Test because her first 18-or-so years were so dominated by her father, so any narrative about that period in her life would be consequently dominated by her father. Even her relationships with other women are shadowed by her father's disapproval of her lifestyle. But if I were to say that Fun Home doesn't have an assured, original feminist voice, I would be FULL OF SHIT. And Hell, Bechdel herself credits a friend of hers with coming up with the test, and she got the idea from an essay by Virginia Wolf.  Soooo.... I guess I'm asking America to take a more nuanced and sincere look at the way women are represented in the media, even beyond one simple test? Not a tall order, right dudes and dames? I agree with everything else you said, but Fun Home does have scenes where women talk about literature (including one where her college girlfriend reads children's literature to her during oral sex). I'm pretty sure there's also a scene or two fleshing out her mother a bit more, so it does technically "pass" the Bechdel Test.  But again, like you said, that's not a full-stop measuring stick on whether or not something has a feminist voice.  ON A TOTALLY UNRELATED NOTE:  Honestly, I'm just now starting the episode... because I've been binging My Favorite Murder... so to see that Karen Kilgariff is one of the guests today is making me lose my mind lol!  I had heard a few people talk about that show, but I haven't listened to it, so I had no idea she was the host. Honestly, when I think of Karen Kilgariff, I think of this sketch from Mr Show:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Epw4Uf-h5w  Her line read at about 2:35 kills me every time. 3 Share this post Link to post
She-Tar 8 Posted August 6, 2017 From my understanding of Bechdel's writings, the Bechdel test was itself a joke about how low the bar is for female representation in Hollywood films in the first place. Did I misread her book completely? I thought in its first version "Two women discussing something other than their appearance" and the second revised version, "something other than their appearance or a man" it was intended to illustrate the paltry and pathetic offerings for women, even in supposedly empowering films. Wasn't Aliens her first and only example? Or am I misremembering? Â Anyways, I think more blatantly offensive in this movie is something that was touched on in the podcast by Andrea or the other guest--why was the half Chinese guy obviously white? They didn't even do old-style Charlie Chan style yellowface. Talk about white-washing. What is it with movies in Hawaii and white washing? Isn't there one with Emma Stone? Â This movie makes no sense on any level, but I have to make a public service announcement. If anyone is tempted, don't listen to the vitamin guy's advice. You can most certainly eat too much vitamin C. Even in the amounts he suggests, taken in conjunction with all the other vitamins, you would most certainly get ill. The Emma Stone movie you're thinking of is Aloha. Share this post Link to post
She-Tar 8 Posted August 6, 2017 On the sex scene where she's kneeling down and he's moaning and saying how good she is, does anyone else think that maybe he's just sticking it in her belly button? And if so, how deep is it? It reminded me of that Family Guy abstinence episode where the kids were sticking it in each other's ears so maybe a belly button isn't that weird for this movie. Share this post Link to post
ofthegarza 9 Posted August 6, 2017 If this wasn't a Jacob's Ladder scenario, could we say it was an Snakob's Ladder scenario? Â Nah, it would be a Jacob's Adder scenario. 2 Share this post Link to post
taylor anne photo 11311 Posted August 6, 2017 From my understanding of Bechdel's writings, the Bechdel test was itself a joke about how low the bar is for female representation in Hollywood films in the first place. Did I misread her book completely? I thought in its first version "Two women discussing something other than their appearance" and the second revised version, "something other than their appearance or a man" it was intended to illustrate the paltry and pathetic offerings for women, even in supposedly empowering films. Wasn't Aliens her first and only example? Or am I misremembering? No it was definitely not created seriously, but I meant that it was created to point out this low bar that is literally the easiest thing to do and movies can't even do that lol. It's definitely a "for fun" look at feminism in film. I remember when I first heard about it going through all of these movies that I fucking LOVE and realizing "oh wow there's not another named woman in this entire film that she can talk to about something other than a man..." and then looking at these movies that are fucking garbage that actually pass it and that's when you look at society and laugh until you cry lol. Â WARNING: CISGENDER WHITE MALE OPINIONS ON FEMINISM AHEAD! Â The Bechdel Test being the most prominent measure for feminism in media and art (or at least movies) is problematic at best. Sure, it is one useful tool to measure how women are being represented, but it definitely does not tell the whole picture (as other, more intelligent people on this board have already pointed out). It would be like going to a doctor for a physical and getting your blood pressure measured, then the doctor clapping his hands together and saying, "Well, that's all you need to know! My work is done here!" If Hard Ticket to Hawaii passes the Bechdel Test, it is only a function of the film attempting to achieve a Maximum Tits-Per-Minute ratio, thereby necessitating making its leads a pair of, I believe the academic term is, "Chesty Broads." If, say, a romance film doesn't pass the Bechdel test... well, that's probably because a romance film is about relationships so EVERY conversation is going to be about the object of that character's affection. Obviously, a well-rounded character will have more things to talk about than the object of his or her desire. The Bechdel test is definitely useful when, if it were applied to men (do men have conversations with each other that aren't about women?), and it passes muster in that context but fails when traditionally applied, then we have a fucking problem, no matter the genre of movie, action schlock or romance. Â When applied to something like Fun Home, the work Allison Bechdel herself is most known for... it doesn't really pass. Fun Home is about her childhood and her relationship with her father, how dominating her father was in that ironically named childhood home hers. So of course it doesn't pass the Bechdel Test because her first 18-or-so years were so dominated by her father, so any narrative about that period in her life would be consequently dominated by her father. Even her relationships with other women are shadowed by her father's disapproval of her lifestyle. But if I were to say that Fun Home doesn't have an assured, original feminist voice, I would be FULL OF SHIT. And Hell, Bechdel herself credits a friend of hers with coming up with the test, and she got the idea from an essay by Virginia Wolf. Â Soooo.... I guess I'm asking America to take a more nuanced and sincere look at the way women are represented in the media, even beyond one simple test? Not a tall order, right dudes and dames? Very well said! I've definitely never seen Fun Home and now I really want to watch it. Â Look, also being one of the more vocal female members of this board I don't want to sit here and say that everything is wrong or offensive or what have you. I fucking wouldn't be as obsessed with movies or this show if literally everything pissed me off that much lol. I do my "This Week in Feminism" as a fun note on how things in a movie are portrayed (whether it was a very 80s mindset kind of thing or a "why the fuck does Vin Diesel get propped up by women in every movie STILL" kind of thing). But I think this is a very interesting conversation and I very much enjoy using the Bechdel Test and find humor in going through all of these movies that I have listed as my favorites and testing them. Whether they fail or don't fail really doesn't mean shit to me. 5 Share this post Link to post
Dangorman77 6 Posted August 7, 2017 Here is a possible explanation to all of the cameo roles and scenes that seem to go nowhere in this film. Â I started working in the film industry in the mid-eighties and I worked on a number of movies like "Hard Ticket to Hawaii." They were extremely low budget drama/horror films that had to have violence and of course, boobies!!!; in order to sell the video rights to Europe and Asia. To save money on these shows, the producers would hand out SAG cards to people who would lease us expensive things that we could use in the show like cars, boats, helicopters and even in some cases, locations. In order to do this the car/boat/helicopter/home owner needed to be in a scene with a speaking part. This would mean that the production company would need to pay a fine to the Screen Actors Guild for not using a SAG actor in a speaking role, but the fine was a lot less than the cost of renting a plane, boat or helicopter. I once got a yacht for getting the owner SAG card on a film. Now usually these scenes ended up on the cutting room floor but I guess Mr. Sidaris said "fuck it! I need more running time on this show!" So he left the scenes in. Â Â One anti-movie trope that Mr. Sidaris does is that unlike most low budget films i.e. "Chopping Mall" and many other films like, if you show your tits in a Andy Sidaris film there is a very good chance that you will survive to the end of the film. Â PS: I know you have a lot of shows on your list already but here is a brief list of some of the awful films that I have worked on. Â Here is a really bad show that I worked on. If you'd like more I would be happy to send them to you. Â Dangerous Love 3 Share this post Link to post
gigi-tastic 2322 Posted August 7, 2017 So glad this movie was covered as I'd seen the skateboard scene many times but had no idea where it was from. I had a hard time remembering any character’s name, so eventually I paired things down to Blonde #1 and #2 and Dumb Dildo Ryu and Ken (plus Sports Dildo).  I have a lot of sympathy for the snake. Imagine the life it lead prior to when we first see it. It was either born into captivity or it was cruelly taken from its home and/or a possible family to a medical research facility, to be injected with who knows what and given rat cancer. Each day must feel like eternity until one miraculous moment when a shipping error finds the snake in a tropical paradise. It's free, maybe for the first time ever. Alone, except for the memories of how it suffered at the hands of men, lamenting the life it never and will never have, slowing dying of cancer. The snake eventually comes across the happy honeymooning couple, which represent everything that has been taken away from it. Maybe it's hunger, or instinct, or just an emotional lapse, but it kills them. Its life force ebbing away, the snake finds a cool dark place to rest in and die (the pipe under the women’s bungalow). Does it dream while it settles here? I would assume there would be nothing but nightmares. Perhaps awakening from and trying to flee these nightmares, it bursts up through the toilet, but the snake sees its reflection in the mirror, the haggard specter staring back causes the snake to have another breakdown, shattering the mirror and trashing the bathroom. Pathetically the snake crawls toward Blonde #2 begging for release from this hell. It sees the smuggler jerk from earlier who had tried to hurt it, recognizes that he wants to harm this woman, and kills him not just for his transgressions against the snake but to save the snake's unlikely saviors. Having helped someone in its final moments the snake finds peace and is ready to truly be free. Unfortunately, the woman shoots the snake non-fatally in the face twice before it is blown up by Dumb Dildo Ken’s rocket launcher. That's your hard ticket to Hawaii. This is quite possibly the best interpretation of this film. I NEED this dramatic masterpiece to come to the screen. I also request that a sequel be made where in the snakes child sets out on a bloody path of vengeance Kill Bill style to destroy all those who have wronged not only it's father, and family but ALL of snake kind! In this sequel I'm going to need a training montage, at least one vision of the deceased snake speaking to his son/daughter, a scrappy sidekick best friend (maybe a chameleon though it doesn't have to be another lizard. A poison dart frog could work), a wise mentor who may or may not be too old for this shit (I'm thinking an iguana), and dramatic double cross. Should there be anything else? Clearly Jason, June and Paul would have to be in both.  Share this post Link to post
gigi-tastic 2322 Posted August 7, 2017 This movie is a gem. I wanted to submit these illuminating Andy Sidaris quotes (he also refers to a never-made sequel to Hard Ticket called BattleZone Hawaii):   "We've never shown anything below the waist, and we don't do any bumping and grinding or any of that crap. We just do a little bit of sexy stuff. I like our pictures, because they're nice little adventure pictures. They're not mean-spirited, and I think you know that. In our movies, we don't put a knife to some girl's throat and say "We're gonna cut your t*** off, or cut your throat." We don't do crap like that. We have a family atmosphere, we pay well, and we pay on time."  http://www.digitally...rview.php?ID=50  What are your future plans?: "Arlene and I have taken a hiatus in order to get up to speed on our company and our ongoing projects. We are now ready to get back into production. I’ve written a pretty exciting outline for BattleZone Hawaii with all the usual ingredients; many exotic locations, fabulous explosions, extraordinarily beautiful Playboy Playmates and Penthouse Pets, extremely handsome men; some of whom can’t shoot straight but their hearts are in the right place and, most importantly, the snake that was killed in Hard Ticket to Hawaii, laid an egg prior to its death. This egg is hatched and just like its mother this huge, cancerous-infected python is mad as hell!!! Wow! I can’t wait to see this movie." http://www.mediaorch...s-andy-sidaris/   Nothing says family friendly like topless women in a Jacuzzi. Also ... was threatening to cut people's tits ( I'm assuming it's tits and not... taint? A euphemism for vagina? God it's even worse if it is something else) off a thing? I've never seen a bad guy threaten a woman's breasts before. Pretty sure I would be more scared of my throat being slit then my boobs being cut off. Though it is SO deranged that it might actually make me more scared because clearly my attacker is utterly unhinged and might do anything. I guess maybe more movie villains need to start threatening tits/taints  I also am 100% here for baby snake vengeance Share this post Link to post
gigi-tastic 2322 Posted August 7, 2017 It's a hard ticket to say anything about a movie where there are equal numbers of bras and bazookas ... and the only bra in the movie was worn by a man. But I will say that I was pleasantly surprised by the movie's treatment of the Michelle/Michael character. I like others figured that Michelle was a man the second the character spoke, and I was almost immediately on-guard for a trans-phobic Ace Ventura "Finkel is Einhorn" moment considering the ridiculous racism and casual mentions of rape that had already taken place on-screen by that moment. But no ... the wig and make-up just came off and no mention of it was ever really made after that. The worst is when Taryn calls her the "wannabe female bartender." So, kudos (?) to this movie's one progressive-ish moment.  However, as much as I loved Andrea Savage on the show, she needs to let go of the word "transvestite." No judgement really, since I didn't know until recently how pejorative that word has become.  YES! Every time she said it I cringed so hard. Share this post Link to post
shoptalkerman 106 Posted August 7, 2017 If Andrea Savage and Cameron Esposito are ever on the same episode, RIP The Levels, for they will be spiked. Share this post Link to post
FisterRoboto 7499 Posted August 7, 2017 If Andrea Savage and Cameron Esposito are ever on the same episode, RIP The Levels, for they will be spiked. Â And also RIP me because I will die from how great the episode will be. 7 Share this post Link to post
Quasar Sniffer 4174 Posted August 7, 2017 Very well said! I've definitely never seen Fun Home and now I really want to watch it. Â Look, also being one of the more vocal female members of this board I don't want to sit here and say that everything is wrong or offensive or what have you. I fucking wouldn't be as obsessed with movies or this show if literally everything pissed me off that much lol. I do my "This Week in Feminism" as a fun note on how things in a movie are portrayed (whether it was a very 80s mindset kind of thing or a "why the fuck does Vin Diesel get propped up by women in every movie STILL" kind of thing). But I think this is a very interesting conversation and I very much enjoy using the Bechdel Test and find humor in going through all of these movies that I have listed as my favorites and testing them. Whether they fail or don't fail really doesn't mean shit to me. To be honest, this thread and your "This Week in Feminism" are examples of why the HDTGM boards are so fantastic. We can all have an enlightening, constructive discussion on topics like feminism and representation in media AND joke about them! ON THE INTERNET! Holy shit, what a concept. It's pretty great. This place follows my most considered, closely held philosophical precept.... Â As for my feelings on Cameron Esposito and Andrea Savage on the same HDTGM: YES PLEASE! 6 Share this post Link to post
JoeyCrown 10 Posted August 7, 2017 Best line from the movie: Â "One man's dream is another man's lunch." Share this post Link to post
FisterRoboto 7499 Posted August 7, 2017 As for my feelings on Cameron Esposito and Andrea Savage on the same HDTGM: YES PLEASE! Â I mentioned it in the last MM thread, but everyone should watch Savage's new show. It's REALLY funny. There's an episode that solely centers around what a manchild Zouks' character is and Andrea trying to get him a date. The two of them have such great comedic rapport (just like in Sleeping With Other People), and it's so much fun to watch them together. 2 Share this post Link to post
IRONicmerMAN 391 Posted August 7, 2017 And also RIP me because I will die from how great the episode will be. I like Andrea Savage, but she didn't do it for me on this one. Cameron Esposito is amazing. I think having her and Rhea Butcher on together would be awesome. They did a CBB episode last fall and it's still one of my favorites. Â I would like to hear Karen back again. I think she was really fun on the episode. I had never heard/heard of her podcast before, but this will get me to check it out! 2 Share this post Link to post
taylor anne photo 11311 Posted August 7, 2017 I would like to hear Karen back again. I think she was really fun on the episode. I had never heard/heard of her podcast before, but this will get me to check it out! I felt like there were a few times where Karen was about to say something and then got cut off and she just abandoned it so I also really want her on another episode! Â Pseudo trigger warning for her podcast, though. It is called "My Favorite Murder" and lemme tell you they go into murders, and while it's not graphic descriptions they do talk about some cases that have been hard to swallow. But her and Georgia are hilarious and make it easier to handle lol. 1 Share this post Link to post
IRONicmerMAN 391 Posted August 7, 2017 I felt like there were a few times where Karen was about to say something and then got cut off and she just abandoned it so I also really want her on another episode! Â Pseudo trigger warning for her podcast, though. It is called "My Favorite Murder" and lemme tell you they go into murders, and while it's not graphic descriptions they do talk about some cases that have been hard to swallow. But her and Georgia are hilarious and make it easier to handle lol. Yeah, I think Savage was a little to quick with her "that's adorable" shtick when Karen was making a point. I just liked how she described things. I think she was one of the best non-all star guests that they've had in a while. Â Thanks for the warning on her podcast! Outside of HDTGM and CBB, I listen to a lot of true-crime podcast, so hopefully I can handle the cases. I'm actually not sure how much I'll like it being done with comedy sprinkled in. I've listened to True Crime Garage and one of those guys thinks he's hilarious and witty, but he totally ruins the show. 1 Share this post Link to post
DanEngler 5249 Posted August 7, 2017 Pseudo trigger warning for her podcast, though. It is called "My Favorite Murder" and lemme tell you they go into murders, and while it's not graphic descriptions they do talk about some cases that have been hard to swallow. But her and Georgia are hilarious and make it easier to handle lol. Karen also has another podcast with Chris Fairbanks called Do You Need A Ride?, which they record while giving comedians rides to/from the airport or to gigs around town. It's been reduced to a monthly show (since Karen has been busy with TV gigs and touring My Favorite Murder, and Chris had hip replacement surgery) but there are a lot of great episodes in the archive. 3 Share this post Link to post
firsttimecallerlongtimelistenr 3590 Posted August 7, 2017 Pseudo trigger warning for her podcast, though. It is called "My Favorite Murder" and lemme tell you they go into murders, and while it's not graphic descriptions they do talk about some cases that have been hard to swallow. But her and Georgia are hilarious and make it easier to handle lol. at the risk of pissing some people off ... i enjoyed her contribution on this episode but i can't recommend my favorite murder to anyone. I tried listening to it but as i listened to episode 1 i got very angry. i thought both hosts were less than well informed about their content (which is unacceptable for me with the content being discussed) and i can't figure out why people think making jokes about murderers and rapist is acceptable. i kept thinking of the families of the victims listening in and hearing it. and the thought of a whole crowd laughing at one of their live shows annoys me. i've no doubt some of the murderers would love the idea of it though. i got about half way through episode 2 and i had to stop. i know i'm in the minority about this and the clue is in the title but it's just not for me. maybe they improved their research as it got more popular but i'll never get past the use of humor for true crime. it's all just too horrible and tragic. 1 Share this post Link to post
IRONicmerMAN 391 Posted August 7, 2017 at the risk of pissing some people off ... i enjoyed her contribution on this episode but i can't recommend my favorite murder to anyone. I tried listening to it but as i listened to episode 1 i got very angry. i thought both hosts were less than well informed about their content (which is unacceptable for me with the content being discussed) and i can't figure out why people think making jokes about murderers and rapist is acceptable. i kept thinking of the families of the victims listening in and hearing it. and the thought of a whole crowd laughing at one of their live shows annoys me. i've no doubt some of the murderers would love the idea of it though. i got about half way through episode 2 and i had to stop. i know i'm in the minority about this and the clue is in the title but it's just not for me. maybe they improved their research as it got more popular but i'll never get past the use of humor for true crime. it's all just too horrible and tragic. Before I read this opinion, I actually recalled an all-female murder/mystery podcast that I listened to some time ago but couldn't make it through the first episode. It was more annoying than anything. I'm going to have to listen to the first episode of this one to see if that's the one. I'm starting to think that's it, which is really disappointing after hearing Karen on HDTGM. Share this post Link to post
taylor anne photo 11311 Posted August 7, 2017 at the risk of pissing some people off ... i enjoyed her contribution on this episode but i can't recommend my favorite murder to anyone. I tried listening to it but as i listened to episode 1 i got very angry. i thought both hosts were less than well informed about their content (which is unacceptable for me with the content being discussed) and i can't figure out why people think making jokes about murderers and rapist is acceptable. i kept thinking of the families of the victims listening in and hearing it. and the thought of a whole crowd laughing at one of their live shows annoys me. i've no doubt some of the murderers would love the idea of it though. i got about half way through episode 2 and i had to stop. i know i'm in the minority about this and the clue is in the title but it's just not for me. maybe they improved their research as it got more popular but i'll never get past the use of humor for true crime. it's all just too horrible and tragic. I completely disagree that they are making jokes about rapists and murderers. In fact when you listen to them actually talk about these instances they are more than appalled throughout the entire story they share with each other, and when the story of a woman not being believed and therefore the guy is able to go on and do it again comes up they go on long rants about women's rights in court. They only make jokes about things that are more appropriate to make jokes about, and not once is it at a victim's expense. Nor is it ever really purposeful. Like they never sit and write jokes about the murder they're covering. They just both happen to be comedians and therefore they probably can never turn off that part of their brain. Sometimes people make light of things that are hard to deal with as a coping mechanism, and I don't believe they are genuinely trying to make fun or light of any of this. Â The first couple of episodes I think are rough just because of production value because they were self published until I believe episode 15. Â But *shrugs* I recognize this isn't for everyone. I have a very hard time actually watching murder shows but it's easier for me to listen to Karen and Georgia. 1 Share this post Link to post
taylor anne photo 11311 Posted August 7, 2017 Thanks for the warning on her podcast! Outside of HDTGM and CBB, I listen to a lot of true-crime podcast, so hopefully I can handle the cases. I'm actually not sure how much I'll like it being done with comedy sprinkled in. I've listened to True Crime Garage and one of those guys thinks he's hilarious and witty, but he totally ruins the show. There's really only been a few that afterwards I was like "okay I need a palette cleanser" because they involved torture or children (or both like jfc how fucked up can you be). Share this post Link to post
firsttimecallerlongtimelistenr 3590 Posted August 7, 2017 I completely disagree that they are making jokes about rapists and murderers.... that's fair enough. like i said i only listened to the first 2 episodes so it should only be taken in that context. i can't remember specifics but i was angered by the humor and the lack of research. you shouldn't publish true crime stories without being as factual as you possibly can and without full respect for the subject matter. i believe it to be in bad taste to be honest. i really don't think humor is the best vehicle for true crime. i'm sure we've all indulged in "gallows humor" when discussing heavy stuff like this with friends but i would never publish it. in saying that, if they were talking about fictional crime i wouldn't have a problem about it. Â i have a similar problem with some other true crime podcasts. some of them are close to a sort of crime pornography (probably not the best turn of phrase there but some people seem to get off on the details). sword and scale is coming to mind. i mean it's nothing new but it's a mass market thing now and i've developed a problem with it. Â the only crime podcast i listen to anymore is criminal. i think they do it well and in the correct tone. i haven't listened to a whole lot of crime podcasts in about a year to be honest. i just think it's not being done properly by alot of people. they're searching out unsolved cases or cases where they believe the wrong person has been convicted and they're making some very strong cases against people who they think are really responsible for the crime. Â serial is a prime example of this. i have no idea if adnan killed hae min but i can see why he was convicted (i can also see why people believe him to be innocent). but to go out and turn so many people against this jay guy ... that's so dangerous. he might have been the one who killed her, i've no idea, but he was thrown to the wolves by, at best, amateur detectives. this put him and his family in alot danger and must have scared the s##t out of them. and it's been copied over and over again. i've been sucked in myself by these shows. making a murder is another one. i had to stop listening to/watching them. Â Â but that's just my opinion. to each their own. people get offended by different things i guess 2 Share this post Link to post
joel_rosenbaum 1269 Posted August 8, 2017 Did anyone else find it funny that Jason mentioned Camille Paglia as the first feminist off his head? 1 Share this post Link to post