Musical Mondays Week 58 The Last Five Years

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

One other thought I had is that Jamie is always wanting to fix things for Cathy instead of hearing and supporting her where she is.  He uses his money to support her instead of his time.  (He lines up a headshot photographer and buys a copy of Backstage listing a bunch of auditions.)

[taylor anne photo 11311]

3 minutes ago, Cinco DeNio said:

@taylorannephoto's comments reminded me of one other callback in the show I saw.  The dress she wears in "I'm a Part of That" is the one he fights to get her to wear in this song.  To me that says she's singing "IaPoT" just after coming back from that party.  Obviously she could have worn that dress another time or it was her standard fancy party dress, etc.

And in I'm a Part of That we can already see what's to come, but because his eyes always find her and he smiles then she's fine with sitting at that table and being there for him. I think that's a really important scene because she could've dealt with all of the people ignoring her and forgetting her name as long as he was the same person who would find her in the crowd. But it sounds like he truly leaves her alone for hours and there's like zero point in her being there.

[Cameron H. 23786]

On 1/28/2019 at 12:13 PM, grudlian. said:

Had they both been at fault or they both just fell out of love or been equals on some level, I'd have like that a lot more.

I think this was the not being “equal” post I was referring to. 

No, I get all that. I’m not saying he’s a saint. I’m saying that the trajectory of their careers has made it difficult for each of them to see where the other one is coming from. Yes, he was harsh as fuck during that conversation. My point is that I doubt we’re seeing the first time they’ve had this fight. This is the culmination of maybe a couple of years of self-centeredness (him) and quiet resentment (her). 

I see his point of view regarding the parties because these are industry events that people are putting on specifically to promote him and his work. In that situation, it is literally all about him - which is mentioned. It would be weird if he ignored all the people there to honor him and just hang out with his wife. These aren’t just “let’s get drunk and dance” affairs. I think he tells her at one point, they only last about two hours. It’s like, yeah, I get that it sucks for you, but I’d really like you to be there. Also, there’s nothing to say she HAS to sit at the bar, drink, and “wait for someone to talk to her” (her words). She could use that time to network for herself. The publishing world isn’t so far afield from acting that she can’t get out there and “meet someone who knows someone.” For someone to succeed as he does is ludicrously rare, but it does offer her an almost as rare opportunity. There’s nothing keeping her from exploiting his success for her own benefit except for her own insecurities.

As far as the cheating stuff...of course I don’t have an excuse for it. Not for acting on it anyway. He’s absolutely wrong to do it - which he readily admits. I disagree that he would have always done it regardless of success, otherwise he wouldn’t be begging her to go to all these parties with him. I think we can all agree that it’s probably much easier to cheat if your SO isn’t 10 feet away from you.  He’d just Be like, “Cool, enjoy your night!”

As CakeBug said a couple of pages ago, starting the movie with Anna Kendrick weeping and saying how badly she’s hurting already predisposes the audience to side with her. And the temptation song doesn’t do him any favors. Personally, I would prefer that number be removed as I don’t think it really adds anything more than further convince the audience that he’s a sleazebag which...is kind of whatever. I think the reveal would have been far more shocking if that song wasn’t there. Otherwise, you just get the impression of “he’s a dick and he’s always been a dick” and I don’t really feel the drama or tragedy in that. 

Ultimately, as I said earlier, the central issue, for me anyway, and what I feel like the intention is, “Whatever your level of success, it sucks if your SO doesn’t support you.” Should he have gone to her Ohio plays? Absolutely. Yes. Should she have gone to his parties? Absolutely. Yes. Whether you’re up for a Pulitzer Peace Prize or wining a local hot dog eating contest, does it hurt like ass when your SO doesn’t seem to be supporting your success because they’re wrapped up in their own bullshit?   Yesolutely! And I say “seem” because that’s how each of them feel. If you were to ask either of them, they would probably both tell you that they were nothing but supportive while the other one was only ever thinking of themselves.

Again, I think the problem is partly due to the fact that the Musical goes out of its way to introduce Jamie as the villain, but I think we are also predisposed to minimalize people’s emotional distress if we view them as “successful.” How many times do we here celebrities bitch about something or other and we dismiss it as “Whatever, you’re a millionaire.” Just because he’s a successful author, doesn’t mean Jamie’s sense of abandonment hurts any less than Cathy’s.

[Cameron H. 23786]

57 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

And in I'm a Part of That we can already see what's to come, but because his eyes always find her and he smiles then she's fine with sitting at that table and being there for him. I think that's a really important scene because she could've dealt with all of the people ignoring her and forgetting her name as long as he was the same person who would find her in the crowd. But it sounds like he truly leaves her alone for hours and there's like zero point in her being there.

You wrote this as I was writing my response. I agree, but I think both of them change. I don’t really think she would be content to just wait for him to smile at her forever. If that’s all it was, over the course of, say, 50 years, I sincerely doubt that would be enough. Without some serious communication, they were always doomed to end up as they did.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

3 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I think this was the not being “equal” post I was referring to. 

No, I get all that. I’m not saying he’s a saint. I’m saying that the trajectory of their careers has made it difficult for each of them to see where the other one is coming from. Yes, he was harsh as fuck during that conversation. My point is that I doubt we’re seeing the first time they’ve had this fight. This is the culmination of maybe a couple of years of self-centeredness (him) and quiet resentment (her). 

I see his point of view regarding the parties because these are industry events that people are putting on specifically to promote him and his work. In that situation, it is literally all about him - which is mentioned. It would be weird if he ignored all the people there to honor him and just hang out with his wife. These aren’t just “let’s get drunk and dance” affairs. I think he tells her at one point, they only last about two hours. It’s like, yeah, I get that it sucks for you, but I’d really like you to be there. Also, there’s nothing to say she HAS to sit at the bar, drink, and “wait for someone to talk to her” (her words). She could use that time to network for herself. The publishing world isn’t so far afield from acting that she can’t get out there and “meet someone who knows someone.” For someone to succeed as he does is ludicrously rare, but it does offer her an almost as rare opportunity. There’s nothing keeping her from exploiting his success for her own benefit except for her own insecurities.

As far as the cheating stuff...of course I don’t have an excuse for it. Not for acting on it anyway. He’s absolutely wrong to do it - which he readily admits. I disagree that he would have always done it regardless of success otherwise he would be begging her to go to all these parties. I think we can all agree that it’s probably much easier to cheat if your SO isn’t 10 feet away from you.  

As CakeBug said a couple of pages ago, starting the movie with Anna Kendrick weeping and saying how badly she’s hurting already predisposes the audience to side with her. And the temptation song doesn’t do him any favors. Personally, I would prefer that number be removed as I don’t think it really adds anything more than further convince the audience that he’s a sleazebag which...is kind of like “Well, who gives a fuck?” I think the reveal would have been far more shocking if that song wasn’t there. Otherwise, you just get the impression of “he’s a dick and he’s always been a dick” and I don’t really feel the drama or tragedy in that. 

Ultimately, as I said earlier, the central issue, for me anyway, and what I feel like the intention is, “Whatever your level of success, it sucks if your SO doesn’t support you.” Should he have gone to her Ohio plays? Absolutely. Yes. Should she have gone to his parties? Absolutely. Yes. Whether you’re up for a Pulitzer Peace Prize or wining a local hot dog eating contest, does it hurt like ass when your SO doesn’t seem to be supporting your success because they’re wrapped up in their own bullshit?   Yesolutely! And I say “seem” because that’s how each of them feel. If you were to ask either of them, they would probably both tell you that they were nothing but supportive while the other one was only ever thinking of themselves.

Again, I think the problem is partly due to the fact that the Musical goes out of its way to introduce Jamie as the villain, but I think we are also predisposed minimalize people’s emotional distress because we perceive them as “successful.” How many times do we here celebrities bitch about something or other and we dismiss it as “Whatever, you’re a millionaire.” Just because he’s a successful author, doesn’t mean Jamie’s sense of abandonment hurts any less than Cathy’s.

My issue is that neither the Ohio plays nor industry parties materialized out of nowhere.  Before Cathy went to Ohio she could have said "Here's the performance schedule.  Which dates can you be there for?" or some such.  When the agent or publisher wants to plan a party he can say "Oh, sorry, I'm going to be in Ohio that day".  He could then have checked with Cathy ahead of time to reschedule or push a little on the publisher to have it another day.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

6 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

You wrote this as I was writing my response. I agree, but I think both of them change. I don’t really think she would be content to just wait for him to smile at her forever. If that’s all it was, over the course of, say, 50 years, I sincerely doubt that would be enough. Without some serious communication, they were always doomed to end up as they did.

You remind me of the movie Hitchcock with Anthony Hopkins and Helen Mirren.  The movie makes it seem like she was completely in the background but she has fire and spit.  When Alfred Hitchcock won the AFI's Lifetime Achievement Award in 1979 he had this to say:
 

Quote

 

I beg to mention by name only four people who have given me the most affection, appreciation and encouragement... and constant collaboration. The first of the four is a film editor, the second is a scriptwriter, the third is the mother of my daughter Pat, and the fourth is as fine a cook as ever performed miracles in a domestic kitchen... and their names are Alma Reville.

(applause, with close up of Alma)

Had the beautiful Miss Reville not accepted a lifetime contract, without options, as "Mrs Alfred Hitchcock" some 53 years ago, Mr Alfred Hitchcock might be in this room tonight... (cut back to the seated Hitchcock) ...not at this table, but as one of the slower waiters on the floor.

(laughter)

I share my award, as I have my life, with her.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb5VdGCQFOM

 

[Cameron H. 23786]

3 minutes ago, Cinco DeNio said:

My issue is that neither the Ohio plays nor industry parties materialized out of nowhere.  Before Cathy went to Ohio she could have said "Here's the performance schedule.  Which dates can you be there for?" or some such.  When the agent or publisher wants to plan a party he can say "Oh, sorry, I'm going to be in Ohio that day".  He could then have checked with Cathy ahead of time to reschedule or push a little on the publisher to have it another day.

Yes, but she also has an entire Skype song to him about how much she hates Ohio. They discuss it. Again, it all comes down to communication. It’s entirely possible he doesn’t really understand why she’d want him to be there. From what I’ve gathered, she always dismissed Ohio as some kind of embarrassing joke. She’s made it seem unimportant to her so he doesn’t recognize why it should be important to him. It’s like she’s working some shitty job beneath her. On the one hand she’s humiliated by it, but on the other hand, she really wants him there to support her. She needs to tell him exactly why it’s important for him to be there, and in turn, he needs to tell her exactly why he needs her to be at those parties. Going back to Taylor’s previous post, we get that she gains comfort from his smile, but what if he’s only smiling because she’s there? No he can’t spend the whole evening in a corner with her,  but maybe him being able to look up and see her there makes him feel good and gives him the confidence he needs to navigate the insane situation he’s found himself in.

[SaraK 1980]

13 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

 

Ultimately, as I said earlier, the central issue, for me anyway, and what I feel like the intention is, “Whatever your level of success, it sucks if your SO doesn’t support you.” Should he have gone to her Ohio plays? Absolutely. Yes. Should she have gone to his parties? Absolutely. Yes. Whether you’re up for a Pulitzer Peace Prize or wining a local hot dog eating contest, does it hurt like ass when your SO doesn’t seem to be supporting your success because they’re wrapped up in their own bullshit?   Yesolutely! And I say “seem” because that’s how each of them feel. If you were to ask either of them, they would probably both tell you that they were nothing but supportive while the other one was only ever thinking of themselves.

This, 100%. They both are trying to be supportive as much as they can but in actuality, both failing at it. I think its a byproduct of their speedy romance and age as well, but I don't think either side is really giving their best effort in supporting their spouse. The parties DO suck, but Cathy could easily talk to other attendees instead of secluding herself. Ohio IS far and demoralizing, but its important to Cathy so Jamie should shut up and show up.

 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

1 minute ago, Cameron H. said:

I think this was the not being “equal” post I was referring to. 

No, I get all that. I’m not saying he’s a saint. I’m saying that the trajectory of their careers has made it difficult for each of them to see where the other one is coming from. Yes, he was harsh as fuck during that conversation. My point is that I doubt we’re seeing the first time they’ve had this fight. This is the culmination of maybe a couple of years of self-centeredness (him) and quiet resentment (her). 

I see his point of view regarding the parties because these are industry events that people are putting on specifically to promote him and his work. In that situation, it is literally all about him - which is mentioned. It would be weird if he ignored all the people there to honor him and just hang out with his wife. These aren’t just “let’s get drunk and dance” affairs. I think he tells her at one point, they only last about two hours. It’s like, yeah, I get that it sucks for you, but I’d really like you to be there. Also, there’s nothing to say she HAS to sit at the bar, drink, and “wait for someone to talk to her” (her words). She could use that time to network for herself. The publishing world isn’t so far afield from acting that she can’t get out there and “meet someone who knows someone.” For someone to succeed as he does is ludicrously rare, but it does offer her an almost as rare opportunity. There’s nothing keeping her from exploiting his success for her own benefit except for her own insecurities.

As far as the cheating stuff...of course I don’t have an excuse for it. Not for acting on it anyway. He’s absolutely wrong to do it - which he readily admits. I disagree that he would have always done it regardless of success otherwise he would be begging her to go to all these parties. I think we can all agree that it’s probably much easier to cheat if your SO isn’t 10 feet away from you.  

As CakeBug said a couple of pages ago, starting the movie with Anna Kendrick weeping and saying how badly she’s hurting already predisposes the audience to side with her. And the temptation song doesn’t do him any favors. Personally, I would prefer that number be removed as I don’t think it really adds anything more than further convince the audience that he’s a sleazebag which...is kind of like “Well, who gives a fuck?” I think the reveal would have been far more shocking if that song wasn’t there. Otherwise, you just get the impression of “he’s a dick and he’s always been a dick” and I don’t really feel the drama or tragedy in that. 

Ultimately, as I said earlier, the central issue, for me anyway, and what I feel like the intention is, “Whatever your level of success, it sucks if your SO doesn’t support you.” Should he have gone to her Ohio plays? Absolutely. Yes. Should she have gone to his parties? Absolutely. Yes. Whether you’re up for a Pulitzer Peace Prize or wining a local hot dog eating contest, does it hurt like ass when your SO doesn’t seem to be supporting your success because they’re wrapped up in their own bullshit?   Yesolutely! And I say “seem” because that’s how each of them feel. If you were to ask either of them, they would probably both tell you that they were nothing but supportive while the other one was only ever thinking of themselves.

Again, I think the problem is partly due to the fact that the Musical goes out of its way to introduce Jamie as the villain, but I think we are also predisposed minimalize people’s emotional distress because we perceive them as “successful.” How many times do we here celebrities bitch about something or other and we dismiss it as “Whatever, you’re a millionaire.” Just because he’s a successful author, doesn’t mean Jamie’s sense of abandonment hurts any less than Cathy’s.

Ah see that quote to me means equals in terms of this relationship not working - not their careers.

I think on Cathy's side of the party argument is really like she's not expecting him to ignore everyone for her. That would be really crazy to do, but like I mentioned above in I'm a Part of That, she doesn't mind sitting at that table because she knows he's going to find her. But we have to assume by the time we see this fight there have been years of her now enduring literally being straight up ignored for a full two hours while she's alone. Of course she can go network herself, but it sounds like she had already tried that because she mentioned that no matter how many times she talks to people they can never remember her name so again by this particular fight all of that thought process is out the window. It's just weird to think that there has to be this all or nothing scenario when it comes to these parties. Either she goes and is ignore the whole time (which is what she says is happening) or she goes and Jaime ignores everyone else the whole time. That's a little ridiculous and not at all what anyone is expecting. And honestly how many fucking parties does this guy need in his honor. Idk but like he wrote one book and it seems like they've been celebrating him for years and years after the fact and he really doesn't need that many gd parties. Also, like if she went to the first 100 parties for him I would think he should be secure enough in himself to let her skip the 101st. It's truly not that big of a deal.

I still disagree that all of this hinders on success though. Again, all of the verses in the resisting temptation song mention women noticing him now that he's married. It has nothing to do with his success. He had already had the success for a while because all of that happened before he proposed. So they got their giant apartment in NYC and they were living happily together, and the moment he put a ring on it he suddenly notices that there's a world full of beautiful women that he could fuck, but oh well there's Cathy again because she always "knows" when he's talking to a beautiful woman (his words). That is not the behavior of someone effected by their success, that is the behavior of a man who suddenly regrets getting married.

I also don't think it's fair to pick and choose songs in the musical because this is how they are presenting this story so we have to judge the story as presented. I also disagree that Cathy's first song automatically pins us against Jaime because at that point I'm still like, "Well okay but why did he leave?" There's absolutely still a chance for us to find out all of the sides to this story before making any judgements about either character. In fact, I think presenting the song directly after that (the one where he constantly talks about how his mother would hate her) is the worse song to introduce us to Jaime than Cathy's opener, because the whole time I was like, "Ew!"

Grudlian and I discussed the fact that I truly think this movie doesn't actually paint Jaime as being the bad guy. I think we perceive it that way because Jaime cheats and lies and leaves her at the end, but I truly think the point of this movie is to actually see that he wasn't wrong and Cathy was just as bad. I just happen to disagree with that sentiment.

Jaime never presents himself as abandoned though. And again I don't think anyone here is chalking this up to because of his success. It's how HE fucking ACTS in the entirety of the post marriage scenes. He yells at her (I guess in his head or whatever) that he feels smothered by her and that she won't ever leave him alone or give him space. His sense of this failing relationship is exactly the opposite of Cathy's. I truly truly don't see what you're seeing here. I don't see any of this implosion having anything to do with his success other than the fact that he blames her for trying to keep him down and she doesn't know how to deal with her own failure without feeling bitterness towards him. In that sense there is absolutely a two sided terribleness that will make every relationship end, but never once did anyone say well Jaime isn't allowed to feel that way because he's the successful one. Nah man he's not allowed to feel this way because he's the one who fucking cheats multiple times and then has the gall to say it's not actually his fault. That's shitty behavior no matter what the level of success is.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

3 minutes ago, SaraK said:

This, 100%. They both are trying to be supportive as much as they can but in actuality, both failing at it. I think its a byproduct of their speedy romance and age as well, but I don't think either side is really giving their best effort in supporting their spouse. The parties DO suck, but Cathy could easily talk to other attendees instead of secluding herself. Ohio IS far and demoralizing, but its important to Cathy so Jamie should shut up and show up.

 

You all also wrote all your responses while I was writing mine LOL

But yes I think that 100% it's the lack of communication that dooms them. If only they had been together in this modern era and then getting couple's therapy would be more accepted for them lololol.

It's truly the fact that I think well Cathy is like, "I have to consistently go to these parties that I hate but he refuses to see my gd play," and then Jaime is like, "She wants to fucking complain about these parties and then expect me to see her stupid play that she hates."

[Cameron H. 23786]

1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

I still disagree that all of this hinders on success though. Again, all of the verses in the resisting temptation song mention women noticing him now that he's married. It has nothing to do with his success.

That’s a big reason why I don’t like that song in the movie as I feel like it muddies the point of the movie. The reason I feel like it absolutely has to do with their relative success is because you can’t remove that and still have the same movie. However, you can literally pluck the temptation song out of the movie and have essentially the same thing. That scene just gives the impression that his character’s infidelity is premeditated. As I said earlier, I think there’s more drama in “What drives a person into someone else’s arms” rather than, “They were probably going to cheat anyway.

As for the parties, I was honestly was being a bit hyperbolic with my suggestion that it was all or nothing. Ultimately, though, I think it’s all meant to be great, big monkey’s paw. Yes, your dreams come true, but there’s a cost. I mean, neither one were prepared for his success, and it 100% wasn’t what Cathy signed up for when they initially got together. She absolutely has every right to not want to go to these parties. Again, this is a real, adult conversation they needed to have. Instead, they just let it fester. Really, this is how it should have gone down:

“My job requires I go to these parties.”

“I don’t like going to them.”

”But they’re really important.”

”Then maybe we shouldn’t be together.”

”Maybe you’re right...”

Unfortunately, most people struggle with that type of open communication. I think the movie is very relatable in that regard. 

And I want to be clear, I don’t think they’re equally at fault. I also disagree that was the movie’s intention. It begins and ends with Sad Cathy. She’s absolutely who we are meant to sympathize with. It’s pretty clear she’s the wronged party. Jamie is absolutely a dick and he does some pretty unforgivable shit. I’m not excusing him. Nor am I saying I like him. I’m just saying that while I completely get where she’s coming from, I get where he’s coming from too. 

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

5 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

That’s a big reason why I don’t like that song in the movie as I feel like it muddies the point of the movie. The reason I feel like it absolutely has to do with their relative success is because you can’t remove that plot point and still have the same movie. However, you can literally pluck the temptation song out of the movie and have essentially the same thing. That scene just gives the impression that his character’s infidelity is premeditated. As I said earlier, I think there’s more drama in “What drives a person into someone else’s arms” rather than, “They were probably going to cheat anyway.

As for the parties, I was honestly was being a bit hyperbolic with my suggestion that it was all or nothing. Ultimately, though, I think it’s all meant to be great big monkey’s paw. Yes, your dreams come true, but there’s a cost. I mean, neither one were prepared for his success and it 100% wasn’t what Cathy signed up for. She absolutely has every right to not want to go to these parties. Again, this is a real, adult conversation they needed to have.

“My job requires I go to these parties.”

“I don’t like going to them.”

”But they’re really important.”

”Then maybe we shouldn’t be together.”

Unfortunately, most people struggle with that type of open communication. I think the movie is very relatable in that regard. 

And I want to be clear, I don’t think they’re equally at fault. I also disagree that was the movie’s intention. It begins and ends with Sad Cathy. She’s absolutely who we are meant to sympathize with. It’s pretty clear she’s the wronged party. Jamie is absolutely a dick and he does some pretty unforgivable shit. I’m not excusing him. Nor am I saying I like him. I’m just saying that while I completely get where she’s coming from, I get where he’s coming from too. 

I can agree to an extent.  (Sorry CaleBug!)  Seeing the song "Moving Too Fast" in the stage show made it a little easier for me just because you're only focused on the one actor.  The stage nor the other actor draw your eye.  He comments repeatedly that he's unprepared for what's happening.  It's just a shame he only pulled in yes men to encourage him to keep going instead of people to keep him grounded.

Quote

My heart's been stolen!
My ego's swollen!
I just keep rollin' along!

And I think, "Well, well, what else is in store?
Got all this and more
Before twenty-four!"
It's hard not to be sure I'm spinning out of control!
Out of control!

I'm feeling panicked and rushed and hurried!
I'm feeling outmaneuvered and outclassed
But I'm so happy I can't get worried
About this singular impression -
I've got a singular impression things are moving too fast!

Cathy's song "Climbing Uphill" starts with "I'm climbing uphill, Daddy" not "I'm climbing uphill, Jamie".  She's calling her dad to complain, partly showing she's still somewhat immature about all this, reaching for Daddy instead of her husband.  Also I don't remember in the stage show where Anna is walking around theaters and says "I don't know where I am. Come get me." and then Jamie gives his "I'll be there soon" stuff.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

8 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

That’s a big reason why I don’t like that song in the movie as I feel like it muddies the point of the movie. The reason I feel like it absolutely has to do with their relative success is because you can’t remove that plot point and still have the same movie. However, you can literally pluck the temptation song out of the movie and have essentially the same thing. That scene just gives the impression that his character’s infidelity is premeditated. As I said earlier, I think there’s more drama in “What drives a person into someone else’s arms” rather than, “They were probably going to cheat anyway.

As for the parties, I was honestly was being a bit hyperbolic with my suggestion that it was all or nothing. Ultimately, though, I think it’s all meant to be great, big monkey’s paw. Yes, your dreams come true, but there’s a cost. I mean, neither one were prepared for his success, and it 100% wasn’t what Cathy signed up for when they initially got together. She absolutely has every right to not want to go to these parties. Again, this is a real, adult conversation they needed to have. Instead, they just let it fester. Really, this is how it should have gone down:

“My job requires I go to these parties.”

“I don’t like going to them.”

”But they’re really important.”

”Then maybe we shouldn’t be together.”

”Maybe you’re right...”

Unfortunately, most people struggle with that type of open communication. I think the movie is very relatable in that regard. 

And I want to be clear, I don’t think they’re equally at fault. I also disagree that was the movie’s intention. It begins and ends with Sad Cathy. She’s absolutely who we are meant to sympathize with. It’s pretty clear she’s the wronged party. Jamie is absolutely a dick and he does some pretty unforgivable shit. I’m not excusing him. Nor am I saying I like him. I’m just saying that while I completely get where she’s coming from, I get where he’s coming from too. 

Idk I still think this is meant to show that these people are this way because that's who they regardless of what line of work they are in, but success in terms of creative outlets that purely rely on one's individual talent is a great way to show these two stories (plus we know it's based on a real life couple). I think I'm gonna have to sit and think about this some more, which really annoys me lol, because I'm really wondering if say they were accountants and he got a promotion over her would we still have similar feelings between them.

I'm purely basing that intention of the movie from what they made the tagline, which is literally, "There are two sides to every story." That to me sets up the whole thing as a well okay you may think that Jaime is the fuck-up here but listen there are two sides and his side is just as valuable. Which, yes a break up doesn't just happen, but this movie fails in showing me what his side really is. Does his side of this break up really surround the fact that she won't go to his parties? Cause if so that's a really shallow reason for being driven to cheat and leave her. Everything that we are positing how he feels isn't really told or shown to us, it's all speculation to me, because this is a terrible movie LOL.

Personally I would get where he is coming from more if while he was trying to reason with Cathy about this stupid party he didn't immediately cut her at the knees in the process, because that's a non-starter. And they really don't do a good enough job to show me where else he is coming from.

[Cameron H. 23786]

5 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I think I'm gonna have to sit and think about this some more, which really annoys me lol, because I'm really wondering if say they were accountants and he got a promotion over her would we still have similar feelings between them.

Agreed. I also wonder how we would feel if you reversed their roles. Like, keep everything exactly the same but give all of Cathy’s lines to Jamie and vice versa. 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

3 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Agreed. I also wonder how we would feel if you reversed their roles. Like, keep everything exactly the same but give all of Cathy’s lines to Jamie and vice versa. 

I definitely thought about that too. Part of me would still want to side with Jaime if he had Cathy's lines because his lines are just so rude, but I wonder if because of the lines where Cathy sings about not wanting to be taken care of by a man (which paints her as a feminist wanting to make her own way) inherently becomes misogynist because it would come off as Jaime refusing to be less successful than a woman.

[Cameron H. 23786]

24 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I definitely thought about that too. Part of me would still want to side with Jaime if he had Cathy's lines because his lines are just so rude, but I wonder if because of the lines where Cathy sings about not wanting to be taken care of by a man (which paints her as a feminist wanting to make her own way) inherently becomes misogynist because it would come off as Jaime refusing to be less successful than a woman.

I agree. I think most people would still definitely side with Jathy. I also feel like there’s a risk, based on societal norms, that he would come off as needy, whiny, and weak. 

But not only do I think there’s a risk of misogyny and sexism, I think the optics on some of the numbers changes dramatically. Like I agree Jamie singing about his mother before sex comes off as icky, but I doubt it would feel that way if Cathy were singing that song. In which case, the real meaning of that song becomes more apparent - that the singer is so in love with this person that that he/she is willing to risk being disowned. Which, honestly, is a pretty big deal.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

5 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

I agree. I think most people would still definitely side with Jathy. I also feel like there’s a risk, based on societal norms, that he would come off as needy, whiny, and weak. 

100% here for the Jathy portmanteau. #fuckyouteamCamie

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

It seems like Ohio was a deliberate choice so Jamie wouldn't seem like such a jerk.  Living in Delaware I'm aware of theaters in New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware, Pennsylvania and elsewhere in New England that would be easier to get to and seem to be a better choice.  Since she ends up back in Ohio a second time seems to say she either isn't trying very hard or isn't going about it smartly.

I agree Jamie's cheating wasn't predestined and that is also a two-way street (on Jamie's and the other's part).  I think the stage show is implicitly saying he's cheating with Alise the editor.  One of the rare talking sections has him telling Cathy he was over at Alise's office working on his book.  (I presume it's the followup book.)  In the finale he writes he called Alise to help him pack up his things.  It seems Alise was the closest friend he had (in multiple ways) if he asked her over to help him pack and declared that to Cathy.  I think Jamie's relationship with Alise is one of the reasons Cathy says she thinks Jamie "is feeling just fine" in her first song.  He's already replaced her with someone and she's got no one.  (She could always go back to Richard, the guy in Ohio who wants her.)

Edited February 6, 2019 by Cinco DeNio
Clarified the cheating remark.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Darn you @taylorannephoto!  Two weeks I didn't know this show existed and now it's a favorite!

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

1 hour ago, Cinco DeNio said:

It seems like Ohio was a deliberate choice so Jamie wouldn't seem like such a jerk.  Living in Delaware I'm aware of theaters in New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware, Pennsylvania and elsewhere in New England that would be easier to get to and seem to be a better choice.  Since she ends up back in Ohio a second time seems to say she either isn't trying very hard or isn't going about it smartly.

I don't know, when I was an actor I used to always hear about people bad-mouthing summer stock theatre as lesser than 'real' professional work, but in auditioning for those things (and then later when I was a dramaturg, sitting watching people audition), people are cut-throat and hardcore about the opportunity. I, for one, never got a summer stock gig, and not for lack of trying. They're tough to get. It's not as though there are theatres crying out for actors: if you're working summer stock, you may not be on Broadway, but at least you're working. There are literally countless actors who would kill to have that gig in Ohio, and she's making the best of it. The fact that she's back in Ohio is almost certainly because in casting it's easiest to bring back people who you know can do the job, so most summer stock companies are at least half returners.  In the Shakespeare company I worked at for years we used to only have 3-4 new cast members each year, and we'd bring veterans back provided they didn't have a better gig to go to.  So, I see Ohio as Cathy's 'in' to showbiz, where she would have had an opportunity to play roles she couldn't get otherwise (she plays Maria in Sound of Music, seemingly, and definitely Anita in West Side Story: not sure what she'd do in Porgy and Bess though!), and she's gone back because there were no better offers. This is, sadly, the life of an actor, and it is completely meaningless about how hard you try.

[Cameron H. 23786]

1 hour ago, Cinco DeNio said:

It seems like Ohio was a deliberate choice so Jamie wouldn't seem like such a jerk.  Living in Delaware I'm aware of theaters in New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware, Pennsylvania and elsewhere in New England that would be easier to get to and seem to be a better choice.  Since she ends up back in Ohio a second time seems to say she either isn't trying very hard or isn't going about it smartly.

 

I just don’t get the same vibe that some of you seem to have that the movie was ever making that much of an effort for us to “like” Jamie. If anything, I’d argue the opposite is true - what with the infidelity, opening/closing, and “temptation” song. There’s even Cathy’s bit about her ex leaving her with a letter - foreshadowing (postshadowing?) Jamie leaving her the same way and suggesting that he was always just as bad.

Overall, I feel like he’s a pretty well-rounded character. I get who he is and what makes him tick. Sometimes he’s okay and sometimes he’s not. He has human flaws, but he’s not an outright villain. He’s just kind of a piece of shit.

I mean, I get the tag line suggests there are two sides to every story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean to suggest that both sides are right. Just that they each have a point of view. I get where he’s coming from and why he does it, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

1 hour ago, Cameron H. said:

I just don’t get the same vibe that some of you seem to have that the movie was ever making that much of an effort for us to “like” Jamie. If anything, I’d argue the opposite is true - what with the infidelity, opening/closing, and “temptation” song. There’s even Cathy’s bit about her ex leaving her with a letter - foreshadowing (postshadowing?) Jamie leaving her the same way and suggesting that he was always just as bad.

Overall, I feel like he’s a pretty well-rounded character. I get who he is and what makes him tick. Sometimes he’s okay and sometimes he’s not. He has human flaws, but he’s not an outright villain. He’s just kind of a piece of shit.

I mean, I get the tag line suggests there are two sides to every story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean to suggest that both sides are right. Just that they each have a point of view. I get where he’s coming from and why he does it, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

I apologize that my comments were misunderstood.  I wasn't arguing for Jamie.  I was just trying to get in Cathy's head because I admit I was on her side for several reasons.  1) What we've already said, 2) As a man I know what Jamie is like but I have no clue what Cathy is like, 3) It's wrong but I sympathize more with the woman when there are conflicts.  I was actually commenting thinking it was more in line with what you and SaraK have been talking about.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

I promise this is my last post on this.  I was listening to the soundtrack yesterday, especially "Nobody Needs to Know", Jamie's last song before the finale.  It finally struck me how vulnerable he is, grasping for love and affection from anywhere.  He says several times "It's alright.  The panic recedes."  He's panicking because he's not sure what life will be like after he leaves Cathy.  Then later he says "It's alright.  I'll get what I need." (It might be "I get what I need.")

Then he says to his new lady

Quote

And since I have to be in love with someone
Since I need to be in love with someone
Maybe I could be in love with someone
Like you…

Like "Shiksa Goddess", it's a really strange way to woo someone, especially when they're lying next to you.  (He also says "Don't cry yet" to his new lady when he says he's really leaving Cathy.  I haven't figured out if her tears are of happiness or wondering if he'll leave her like he did Cathy.)