Captain Marvel *SPOILERS*

[taylor anne photo 11311]

Here's our official discussion thread for Captain Marvel! This is open to all things related to this movie, including spoilers! We can also go into our theories of how she'll be involved with Endgame, and discuss the most recent trailer that came out now that they can have the one and only Carol Danvers featured.

The only rule is to please not spoiler any other movies that are within a month old of being in theaters. Actually the other rule is to be respectful of everyone's opinions on the movie, but that should go unsaid lol.

[grudlian. 4725]

So, I just saw this and feel like her final line to Jude Law was off. He's saying "here's your chance to beat me as you are" or something similar. She responds with "I don't need to prove myself to you" I thought it would work better just saying something like "this is who I am"

The whole movie is her being lied to that they created her when they were restricting her powers. I think it makes a little bit of a stronger statement to be herself instead of holding back. She does that by blasting him but her actually saying it proves it wasn't just an emotional reaction; it was a conscious decision.

Also, cats are the best.

[grudlian. 4725]

Also, how did they nail young Fury but young agent Coulson looked weird as hell?

[WatchOutForSnakes 807]

I'm going to go on record saying this movie was more feminist than Wonder Woman. LOOOOOOVED it and have seen it twice in the theatre. I . might go a third time. 

I"m only just coming around to the MCU. This was just so, so great. I am planning on seeing Avengers: End Game just to see Brie Larson's Captain Marvel. Love her. 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

12 hours ago, grudlian. said:

So, I just saw this and feel like her final line to Jude Law was off. He's saying "here's your chance to beat me as you are" or something similar. She responds with "I don't need to prove myself to you" I thought it would work better just saying something like "this is who I am"

The whole movie is her being lied to that they created her when they were restricting her powers. I think it makes a little bit of a stronger statement to be herself instead of holding back. She does that by blasting him but her actually saying it proves it wasn't just an emotional reaction; it was a conscious decision.

Also, cats are the best.

In my opinion I think that scene where she breaks out of the Supreme Intelligence was an unspoken way of her presenting who she is, because she's also become more quippy and way more full of sass. So for me at the end if she had said that I think it would've just been too on the nose and felt too orchestrated by writers. Cause I think this whole time that's exactly what Jude Law was wanting from her, she was supposed to prove herself worthy to him over and over and was deemed too emotional each time. From a female perspective that all rang sooo true and I believe the point is that emotional reactions are also conscious decisions but when a woman does them they are seen as emotional and wrong. No matter what Carol said in that moment it was her decision to end that at that moment because she wasn't going to fight by his ridiculous rules anymore. He was scared of her true power plain and simple and wanted to show that in a fist fight she wouldn't win against him. Once again he wanted her to prove that she was actually strong.

It was a perfect moment.

[grudlian. 4725]

12 hours ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

I'm going to go on record saying this movie was more feminist than Wonder Woman.

For sure this. I felt like Captain Marvel actually talked about being a strong female presence and how that affects future generations of young girls. And she did so as a regular person without superpowers. Her biggest hindrance were guys telling her to be less emotional and literally stopping her from using her inate abilities.

[grudlian. 4725]

13 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

In my opinion I think that scene where she breaks out of the Supreme Intelligence was an unspoken way of her presenting who she is, because she's also become more quippy and way more full of sass. So for me at the end if she had said that I think it would've just been too on the nose and felt too orchestrated by writers. Cause I think this whole time that's exactly what Jude Law was wanting from her, she was supposed to prove herself worthy to him over and over and was deemed too emotional each time. From a female perspective that all rang sooo true and I believe the point is that emotional reactions are also conscious decisions but when a woman does them they are seen as emotional and wrong. No matter what Carol said in that moment it was her decision to end that at that moment because she wasn't going to fight by his ridiculous rules anymore. He was scared of her true power plain and simple and wanted to show that in a fist fight she wouldn't win against him. Once again he wanted her to prove that she was actually strong.

It was a perfect moment.

Would it have been more or less on the nose than playing "Just A Girl" during her big fight? Because that felt way over the top to me.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

3 minutes ago, grudlian. said:

Would it have been more or less on the nose than playing "Just A Girl" during her big fight? Because that felt way over the top to me.

LOL okay yeah about the same, but I still fucking lost it at that song drop because that's my favorite No Doubt song lol.

[grudlian. 4725]

I like the song too but it was too much at that moment for me. I like that (I think) every song was a female lead group except for Come As You Are.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

22 minutes ago, grudlian. said:

I like the song too but it was too much at that moment for me. I like that (I think) every song was a female lead group except for Come As You Are.

Yeah! I was really hyped about that too! And even though they threw Nirvana in there I loved that it was the song they could actually hear and it was to me another little hint at her becoming who she was with those first lines literally being, "Come as you are."

I really loved this movie lololol.

[EvRobert 1684]

I liked the Just A Girl needle drop but back in 1995, working as a college radio DJ and stupid into Ska, I loved me some No doubt (but ya'll Spiderwebs is No Doubt's best song), so it was just like "yeah" total nostalgic moment. Like I knew WHY they were using that song but I also didn't care. 

[WatchOutForSnakes 807]

4 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

In my opinion I think that scene where she breaks out of the Supreme Intelligence was an unspoken way of her presenting who she is, because she's also become more quippy and way more full of sass. So for me at the end if she had said that I think it would've just been too on the nose and felt too orchestrated by writers. Cause I think this whole time that's exactly what Jude Law was wanting from her, she was supposed to prove herself worthy to him over and over and was deemed too emotional each time. From a female perspective that all rang sooo true and I believe the point is that emotional reactions are also conscious decisions but when a woman does them they are seen as emotional and wrong. No matter what Carol said in that moment it was her decision to end that at that moment because she wasn't going to fight by his ridiculous rules anymore. He was scared of her true power plain and simple and wanted to show that in a fist fight she wouldn't win against him. Once again he wanted her to prove that she was actually strong.

It was a perfect moment.

I also think that had Carol said, "this is who I am" she's still conceding that she seeks or desires his approval or agrees to playing by his rules. By saying she has nothing to prove to him, she's saying his opinion doesn't matter at all. It's the more "fuck the patriarchy" move, and I'm for it. 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

6 minutes ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

I also think that had Carol said, "this is who I am" she's still conceding that she seeks or desires his approval or agrees to playing by his rules. By saying she has nothing to prove to him, she's saying his opinion doesn't matter at all. It's the more "fuck the patriarchy" move, and I'm for it. 

Yes! I couldn't properly put that thought into words but I think that's kinda what I was feeling as well! Like he kept trying and trying to get her to prove who she was in relation to fighting him that whole movie, and so to hear her say that she had nothing to prove made me be that person that clapped and was like "YAS QUEEN!"

[KellStarr 39]

I’m so happy to know a bunch of people feel the same way about this movie as I do! This movie means so much to me.

She was criticized for not being strong enough to control her emotions but her actual strength was letting them out. I really related to that.

I’m so excited to see her in Endgame and I hope she gets lots of sequels

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

My thoughts from Letterboxd:

Possible unpopular opinion: I think Captain Marvel is a lower-tier Marvel entry. Why? Because it's an "origin story" for the MCU's first lead female superhero that doesn't actually tell you very much about the lead female superhero. The movie leaves you with very little sense of who Carol Danvers was as a person, so the drama of her origin doesn't land.

I don't think it's the actress's fault; Brie Larson has shown that she can do plenty of emoting when called upon, whether it's in low-key naturalistic fare (Room) or heightened operatic fare (Scott Pilgrim). The problem is that she's never asked to. This movie has a strange dramatic structure in that it withholds information about Danvers' past for a majority of the running time (leaving Larson stuck playing an unemotional blank slate), and then doles out that information in brief flashbacks, not full dramatic scenes. I understand the character, but I don't feel for her.

There's interesting stuff on the edges, particularly with the re-imagining of the Kree-Skrull war. The jokes and quips are still operating in that well-oiled Marvel way, so it's not unpleasant. It just seems to lack a guiding purpose. It's busy connecting the dots to other Marvel properties and not building the character it's supposed to be about. I'd be happy to see more of Captain Marvel in a movie with a better script.

Another side criticism: I didn't think I would miss the Russo Brothers and their relatively anonymous style, but the muddy action scenes in Captain Marvel made me appreciate their skills in that arena. The action in the Avengers and Captain America movies has far clearer geography than this.

[grudlian. 4725]

I would watch this movie. 

[Elektra Boogaloo 3371]

Quote

Possible unpopular opinion: I think Captain Marvel is a lower-tier Marvel entry. Why? Because it's an "origin story" for the MCU's first lead female superhero that doesn't actually tell you very much about the lead female superhero. The movie leaves you with very little sense of who Carol Danvers was as a person, so the drama of her origin doesn't land.

I think the best Marvel origin story movie is either Black Panther or Iron Man, but I think this one sits solidly alongside Thor (which I think it is most like) and Captain America. I'm relieved it did well enough that another will be made. Because every time a female-led movie flops, it takes a decade for another to be made. And I want to scream. Wonder Woman worked because it was good. Catwoman failed because it was bad. Why can't you figure this out!

I did go see it twice in the theater just to spite men online who were trolling  and trying to bring down the ratings. (I am pretty sure I saw fake reviews on Amazon just yesterday, so it wasn't just Rotten Tomatoes). Because that is how I am. I also already have a Carol Danvers "punch holes in the sky" bracelet so I need a place to wear it to. I also loved that Samuel L. Jackson got to do more than just shout and glare at people. He and Brie Larson have been in at least three movies together so they have great chemistry. (Watch Unicorn Store on Netflix.)

Although I did get mad at some presenters who would say to Brie Larson "this i the first female-led Marvel movie." It's not. Elektra was. It's the first female led Marvel Studios movie. (Alternatively, the first female led MCU movie.)

I am excited to see her in Endgame as well. Though I wonder how it works because Endgame was actually filmed BEFORE Captain Marvel. (Since they filmed the two Avengers movies together. I am sure they had the script because they would've at least been in pre-production when Endgame was filming. But, like, was the cat cast? Because I want to see Goose. I am very worried she got Snapped.

Priorities, I has them.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

On 4/5/2019 at 5:05 PM, Elektra Boogaloo said:

But, like, was the cat cast? Because I want to see Goose. I am very worried she got Snapped.

If I don't get to see Rocket try and kill Goose then I'm going to be very disappointed! I was already slightly disappointed that he wasn't the one who got to point out that he was not a cat but indeed a Flerken like he did in the comics. It's truly one of my favorite panels!

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

On 4/5/2019 at 3:05 PM, Elektra Boogaloo said:

I think the best Marvel origin story movie is either Black Panther or Iron Man, but I think this one sits solidly alongside Thor (which I think it is most like) and Captain America. I'm relieved it did well enough that another will be made. Because every time a female-led movie flops, it takes a decade for another to be made. And I want to scream. Wonder Woman worked because it was good. Catwoman failed because it was bad. Why can't you figure this out!

Captain America is much better as a pure character introduction, IMO. They nail the character's ethos and give him a real human backstory that you can feel. I think this one gets the "ethos" okay, but the human character remains muddy. I would say this is similar to Thor in that respect, but also IMO they didn't really nail that character until Ragnarok.

I also think Guardians of the Galaxy is an amazing introduction to a whole host of characters. I think this has actually been Marvel's strength throughout their current run (doing good introductions to the primary characters), which is why I found this one disappointing. I'm not disappointed that it did well at the box office, but I am disappointed that I didn't "feel" it like the other ones . . . and believe me, I wanted to.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

12 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Captain America is much better as a pure character introduction, IMO. They nail the character's ethos and give him a real human backstory that you can feel. I think this one gets the "ethos" okay, but the human character remains muddy. I would say this is similar to Thor in that respect, but also IMO they didn't really nail that character until Ragnarok.

I also think Guardians of the Galaxy is an amazing introduction to a whole host of characters. I think this has actually been Marvel's strength throughout their current run (doing good introductions to the primary characters), which is why I found this one disappointing. I'm not disappointed that it did well at the box office, but I am disappointed that I didn't "feel" it like the other ones . . . and believe me, I wanted to.

I think the problem a lot of people have is that when this movie starts she's not the Carol the fans all know and love because she's being held back and continuously told how to act and be. The parts of her that are HER are when she's cracking jokes and I think when she's fighting she's truly herself, because that's the only way she knows how to let go, which is why Jude Law tells her so many times to control her emotions. But at the end the quippy girl that doesn't hold anything back IS Carol from the comics and I think many feel like that didn't come soon enough.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

4 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I think the problem a lot of people have is that when this movie starts she's not the Carol the fans all know and love because she's being held back and continuously told how to act and be. The parts of her that are HER are when she's cracking jokes and I think when she's fighting she's truly herself, because that's the only way she knows how to let go, which is why Jude Law tells her so many times to control her emotions. But at the end the quippy girl that doesn't hold anything back IS Carol from the comics and I think many feel like that didn't come soon enough.

For me, I see flashes of that in the movie, but it doesn't gel into a fully-coherent arc. Like, I'm not sure why they can't just tell Carol's backstory as a linear plot. I was interested in the brief scenes of her as a child at the racetrack, her in boot camp, etc., but they were just too brief. For most of the movie she's in that "held back" mode (but already basically established as a super-powered being), which IMO hurts the emotional connection.

I would compare this to the first Captain America: in that movie we first get Steve Rogers as a scrawny weakling, but the core of the character is there. We see him standing up to a bully, taking a beating because he's physically weak, but continuing to stand up just the same. Trying over and over to enlist so he can stop the Nazis. That human core carries through after he becomes super-strong, but you connected to him as a regular guy before he became the powered guy. I'd say that Wonder Woman pulls the same trick, only in a different way: she is always superhuman, but the movie begins with her among the other Amazons, so by comparison she's just like the rest . . . you can connect with her as a real character before she has to fight the big bad guy. I was missing that in Captain Marvel. It feels to me like this movie is trying to do a whole lot more (showing us what SHIELD was like in the 90s, connecting to the other Marvel cosmic characters, setting up the next Avengers movie, etc.) and loses track of the core character arc.

I'm glad it did well (I mean, all the Marvel movies do well so I wasn't that worried), but I hope for the next one they course-correct like they did with Thor: Ragnarok and give us a better showcase for Carol.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

2 hours ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

For me, I see flashes of that in the movie, but it doesn't gel into a fully-coherent arc. Like, I'm not sure why they can't just tell Carol's backstory as a linear plot. I was interested in the brief scenes of her as a child at the racetrack, her in boot camp, etc., but they were just too brief. For most of the movie she's in that "held back" mode (but already basically established as a super-powered being), which IMO hurts the emotional connection.

I would compare this to the first Captain America: in that movie we first get Steve Rogers as a scrawny weakling, but the core of the character is there. We see him standing up to a bully, taking a beating because he's physically weak, but continuing to stand up just the same. Trying over and over to enlist so he can stop the Nazis. That human core carries through after he becomes super-strong, but you connected to him as a regular guy before he became the powered guy. I'd say that Wonder Woman pulls the same trick, only in a different way: she is always superhuman, but the movie begins with her among the other Amazons, so by comparison she's just like the rest . . . you can connect with her as a real character before she has to fight the big bad guy. I was missing that in Captain Marvel. It feels to me like this movie is trying to do a whole lot more (showing us what SHIELD was like in the 90s, connecting to the other Marvel cosmic characters, setting up the next Avengers movie, etc.) and loses track of the core character arc.

I'm glad it did well (I mean, all the Marvel movies do well so I wasn't that worried), but I hope for the next one they course-correct like they did with Thor: Ragnarok and give us a better showcase for Carol.

I think the problem with what you've laid out is that they probably thought "well that's all been done before." So they wanted to do something new. The non-linear story telling bothered me a bit at first, because I also wanted to see more, but I felt the "get back up" montage at the ending was a really nice cherry on top for all those moments, because as she is gaining back her own memories we are also gaining parts of who she is. It may not have been totally in tune with the way story telling is typically done, especially in these superhero movies, but I really felt I was learning who Carol was at the same time she was, and that connected with me personally.

Honestly, I think this comes down to personal tastes. I connected emotionally with Carol hardcore, but I know others didn't, but I think it's a shame that those who didn't pretty much paint a broad brush about it. Just the other day I finally listened to Comedy Film Nerds' review of it and Chris Mancini said he thought it was the worst Marvel Movie ever (he then corrected himself and said that probably Incredible Hulk still beats it as worst) and it was all because of that lack of emotional connection for him. Neither Graham Elwood nor Jackie Kashian agreed with him, but it was still a bit jarring to hear.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

I think the problem with what you've laid out is that they probably thought "well that's all been done before." So they wanted to do something new. The non-linear story telling bothered me a bit at first, because I also wanted to see more, but I felt the "get back up" montage at the ending was a really nice cherry on top for all those moments, because as she is gaining back her own memories we are also gaining parts of who she is. It may not have been totally in tune with the way story telling is typically done, especially in these superhero movies, but I really felt I was learning who Carol was at the same time she was, and that connected with me personally.

That montage was nice, but unfortunately I had lost connection with the character long before that, so it didn't land like they probably wanted it to. My feeling is that the traditional brand of storytelling becomes traditional for a reason (it works), and if you're going to break it there needs to be a really good reason and a really good understanding of why you're breaking it. I didn't think it was clear in this movie. To me it seemed like they were doing it just to maintain a mystery about the character and her powers, even though everyone who has been watching the Avengers movies knows that she's going to have to be revealed as super-powerful eventually.

Anyway, I think in many cases people are emotionally connecting with the very idea of a woman superhero becoming powerful, so I don't want to rain on people's parades there. I do like that idea. I just wish it had been done better this time.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

1 minute ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Anyway, I think in many cases people are emotionally connecting with the very idea of a woman superhero becoming powerful, so I don't want to rain on people's parades there. I do like that idea. I just wish it had been done better this time.

I think you're chalking a lot of feelings up to one very broad sentiment, and if some people have found connection with her (no matter what the reasoning may be) then has the movie not succeeded? If you don't feel the same, then it really points out that the movie isn't for you, and that's fine, but it's not like you're raining on anyone's parade... And that kinda makes me think like there's really one way to feel about this movie and if anyone feels differently it's automatically because she's a woman... And that's messed up, man.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

2 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I think you're chalking a lot of feelings up to one very broad sentiment, and if some people have found connection with her (no matter what the reasoning may be) then has the movie not succeeded? If you don't feel the same, then it really points out that the movie isn't for you, and that's fine, but it's not like you're raining on anyone's parade... And that kinda makes me think like there's really one way to feel about this movie and if anyone feels differently it's automatically because she's a woman... And that's messed up, man.

That's why I tried to add the qualifier of "many cases." Of course I can't speak for everyone.

But reading that back it does sound a bit presumptuous, so I apologize for that. I'm just trying to work out why this movie isn't doing it for me.