HDTGM Classics Twilight Saga - Breaking Dawn Part 2 (4/12 9PM EST)

[EvRobert 1684]

yeah just talking about this it kind of hit me that it is weirdly problematic (that whole teenage love triangle bit that was popular in YA could fall into this too though TBF, but a lot of those triangles were based on the success of Twilight)

[Cameron H. 23786]

5 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I don't think she's saying that Bella is to be emulated, no, but she is painting this romance as True Love, and everything that Bella does in response to this True Love or how Edward treats her in the beginning under the guise of True Love, is terrifying and problematic af.

She may call it out to some degree, but she never stands with that calling out in my opinion. Edward full on stalks her, breaks into her home, and watches her while she sleeps and even when Bella first begins to think there's something wrong with that idea it's not because it's creepy and a giant RED FUCKING FLAG it's because she is starting to catch on that he is a vampire, and after that it's pushed aside as anything other than his loving and protecting nature.

But it’s also a fairy tale book about vampires and werewolves. I don’t think any impressionable teens are walking away from Twilight thinking, “I sure wish Timmy would break into my room tonight and stare at me while I sleep. Then I know he loves me.” He’s supposed to be creepy, weird, and off-putting. What would be the point of making him just like a normal teenager? If that were the case, then you might as well just write a story about two regular old teens falling in love. All the creepy things he does feeds into Bella’s unease. She’s not right off the bat like, “I love him.” She’s drawn to him but afraid of him - which is something in every vampire book and story ever written.

So, yes, if we’re talking real life, totally. It’s really problematic. But with narrative shorthand, we get that he’s probably okay pretty much right away. It’s just like we get Mr D’Arcy is okay long before it’s actually revealed or how we know Prince Charming isn’t just some creep who likes to kiss dead women.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

10 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

But it’s also a fairy tale book about vampires and werewolves. I don’t think any impressionable teens are walking away from Twilight thinking, “I sure wish Timmy would break into my room tonight and stare at me while I sleep. Then I know he loves me.” He’s supposed to be creepy, weird, and off-putting. What would be the point of making him just like a normal teenager? If that were the case, then you might as well just write a story about two regular old teens falling in love. All the creepy things he does feeds into Bella’s unease. She’s not right off the bat like, “I love him.” She’s drawn to him but afraid of him - which is something in every vampire book and story ever written.

So, yes, if we’re talking real life, totally. It’s really problematic. But with narrative shorthand, we get that he’s probably okay pretty much right away. It’s just like we get Mr D’Arcy is okay long before it’s actually revealed or how we know Prince Charming isn’t just some creep who likes to kiss dead women.

Okay, but as a 16 year old in this time I can wholeheartedly say that teenage girls are stupid enough to eat this shit up and wish dudes would act like that. It's a fairy tale, but when fairy tales are some of our only representation of teenage romance, then that's all we start to see as truth. This is the problem with stuff like that. Until we can get proper stuff in front of kids' eyes then we can't actually chalk this up to just being a fairy tale and therefore none of it is accurate. Edward is still supposed to be a 17 year old, and so it does teach girls that these actions are okay from men, because they saw Edward do it. Like I promise you I'm writing this all from genuine experience. It took going through extremely toxic relationships and growing up to realize those actions are not okay, because no one told me otherwise.

[EvRobert 1684]

15 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

But it’s also a fairy tale book about vampires and werewolves. I don’t think any impressionable teens are walking away from Twilight thinking, “I sure wish Timmy would break into my room tonight and stare at me while I sleep. Then I know he loves me.” He’s supposed to be creepy, weird, and off-putting. What would be the point of making him just like a normal teenager? If that were the case, then you might as well just write a story about two regular old teens falling in love. All the creepy things he does feeds into Bella’s unease. She’s not right off the bat like, “I love him.” She’s drawn to him but afraid of him - which is something in every vampire book and story ever written.

So, yes, if we’re talking real life, totally. It’s really problematic. But with narrative shorthand, we get that he’s probably okay pretty much right away. It’s just like we get Mr D’Arcy is okay long before it’s actually revealed or how we know Prince Charming isn’t just some creep who likes to kiss dead women.

One of my brother's ex girlfriends would not go to sleep unless he was on the phone with her. 

She was a senior in HS. 

She would get mad if he didn't stay on the phone with her all night. even if they were both asleep. 

it was weird AF.

I know this because my brother and I were sharing a condo at the time.

[Cameron H. 23786]

37 minutes ago, EvRobert said:

And Cameron, I don't think Stephanie Meyer intended to showcase a toxic relationship nor do I think she intedned Bella to be someone that was emulated, but she did. She wrote what she knew, which was based on a lot of LDS courting and marriage stuff (even more influenced I think once OSC kind of took her under his wing and mentored her and whatnot). For Bella there was only ever Edward and nothing else would do, She does dangerous things throughout the books to try and get his attention and/or prove herself or whatever to get herself turned, including having that damn creepy baby.  There is a worldview and a POV throughout the books and movies that I think says that there is only ever one person for someone (IIRC, Bella's father and mother never find a meaningful relationship after their divorce) and you won't ever be happy without that person. There's also a lot of weird purity movement stuff in there about sex and how chaste Edward is even when Bella is throwing herself at him and whatnot. I mean this is just my reading.

Well, then let’s just go ahead and throw away all Fiction and Art ever created that’s based on a person’s upbringing, beliefs, and religion. Did Burgess write A Clockwork Orange because he hoped people would emulate Alex? People idolize Travis Bickle (for the wrong reasons) so I guess Taxi Driver is completely devoid of merit.

Look, I’m not saying the books are perfect or that I agree with everything (or anything) in them. But I feel like most of the criticism about them has to do with a backlash against literature aimed for women rather than anything truly substantive. The same themes that occur on in Twilight are common in a lot of Romance novels, but because Twilight was such a success, it bares the brunt of the animosity. It’s the reason why erotic fiction is looked down upon as being less than even while being a BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. For many years, Romance Novels were Amazon’s primary money maker. Yet, Romance books and writers are under attack all the time. Once Amazon established itself, it immediately tried to squelch the thing that made it a success. 

So, is Jacob incel? Probably not that extreme, but yes. Why? Because that’s a character type teenage girls are familiar with! He’s fucking Duckie! A character that people understood 20 Years earlier. These criticisms are precisely why the books resonate with people. 

I mean, give me a movie and I will nitpick it to death for you. Hell, I do it here all the time.  

[taylor anne photo 11311]

4 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Well, then let’s just go ahead and throw away all Fiction and Art ever created that’s based on a person’s upbringing, beliefs, and religion. Did Burgess write A Clockwork Orange because he hoped people would emulate Alex? People idolize Travis Bickle (for the wrong reasons) so I guess Taxi Driver is completely devoid of merit.

I think it's very interesting you brought these two up and I understand why. You'll have to point me to where people were saying that those who love the books were trying to specifically emulate Bella because I do think I missed the start of that topic, because my point is just teaching girls what is acceptable behavior when it comes to a relationship. But with these two and Twilight together - one was definitely viewed as bad (hence why the two parter series finale made it onto HDTGM) and the other two are seen as literally the best of the best (hence why they are being covered on Unspooled instead), and I do think that goes to the points you made in your next paragraph that there is this animosity towards fiction directed wholly towards females. However, I'm not seeing as to why that means none of the criticisms have any substance? I have the same issues with Twilight that I do with ACWO and Taxi Driver because no matter the intentions of the artists behind the works, the outcome is the same, shitty people doing shitty things because of the media they are digesting.

[EvRobert 1684]

I'm not saying that she shouldn't have written from her POV or her upbringing, but we should still call it out when it's problematic.

Like, I love me The Chronicles of Narnia. That was my first exposure to fantasy and allegory and really cool writing and mythology. And most of it is pretty good but book 5 (The Horse and His Boy) is DEEPLY problematic that is only borderline and marginally corrected in book 7, but book 7 also has that horrible revelation that Susan was more concerned with boys and dresses and parties and forgot all about Narnia and didn't get to go back when her siblings all died. Like Lewis is is saying that if you like boys and dresses and parties you don't deserve to go to heaven. 

And I'm going to call it out. I still love Narnia (and I really love Lewis' Space Trilogy) but that doesn't mean he didn't write from a problematic POV that may have influenced people negatively (thankfully the Narnia neighbors who are problematic in the books never showed up in the films)

[EvRobert 1684]

I also think it's easy to pick on the TWILIGHT books because, well they're not poorly written but they will never be mistaken fro great literature or have a timelessness that other books would have. 
 

That's not Stephanie Meyer's fault and that's not to unfairly criticize or malign her.There just isn't a lasting quality there. There's a lot of worse YA fiction that made worse movies and worse books (don't get me started on Christopher Paloni and the Eragorn series). Other works of literature and movies and art can have a lasting impression, if there are better made. 

the problem is that is sometimes harder to spot the problematic elements in better written/better produced work because, at least for me personally, I get caught up in the craft and the art. 

As a theater person and a film person, there is a lot I love about David Mamet because I get caught up in the craft of his work, and as a result I find it hard to look at his more problematic elements, as far as his worldview and him as a person. i've gotten better at it as he has become more and more of a toxic person. But god damn if the man can't write.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

6 minutes ago, EvRobert said:

I also think it's easy to pick on the TWILIGHT books because, well they're not poorly written but they will never be mistaken fro great literature or have a timelessness that other books would have. 
 

That's not Stephanie Meyer's fault and that's not to unfairly criticize or malign her.There just isn't a lasting quality there. There's a lot of worse YA fiction that made worse movies and worse books (don't get me started on Christopher Paloni and the Eragorn series). Other works of literature and movies and art can have a lasting impression, if there are better made. 

the problem is that is sometimes harder to spot the problematic elements in better written/better produced work because, at least for me personally, I get caught up in the craft and the art. 

As a theater person and a film person, there is a lot I love about David Mamet because I get caught up in the craft of his work, and as a result I find it hard to look at his more problematic elements, as far as his worldview and him as a person. i've gotten better at it as he has become more and more of a toxic person. But god damn if the man can't write.

These are excellent points. Also, I think that for a lot of stuff that has been held so highly we're truly just now seeing it for what it really is. I mean I legitimately didn't think of Taxi Driver as problematic until the last two years, again because I think it just wasn't taught to us that way and we're all slowly realizing it. And Twilight just happens to be the thing made specifically for teenage girls that blew the fuck up and became a phenomenon that also happens to have some not okay stuff that even I didn't really was not okay until I was in my 20s, well after I had read the books and digested all the material.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I’m not saying that they AREN’T problematic. I’m saying that they are no more problematic then a lot of stuff. Everything from Romeo & Juliet to The Hunger Games has shit that’s problematic. Twilight just gets picked on more - especially, but not exclusively, by dudes. There are antecedents to everything in the Twilight books, but as a culture, for some reason, we decided they were going to be our punching bag.

You both brought up anecdotes of people who emulated Bella and Edward-esque relationship traits. Well, kids used to tie sheets around their necks and jump of their roofs trying to fly like Superman. Some people are just dumb and miss the point, but I don’t think we need to ban Superman or suggest that the writers are failing our children.

I mean, are the books poorly written? Absolutely, but that didn’t stop them from being massively successful. Are they lasting pieces of literature? Honestly, I don’t know. What I can say is that we’re still talking about them 10 years after the fact. That’s pretty goddamn impressive. So who knows? (Do people even talk about The Hunger Games anymore?) Are the movies bad? Well, they made a ton of money (mostly from dumb people who hated them apparently ). They were covered on HDTGM? So are the Fast and Furious movies. And, as I recall, Paul, Jason, and Doug admitted to not only liking the last one, but crying at the end!

This is what I’m going to say: Twilight is not perfect. There are flaws. Sure. But all movies have flaws. There will always be problematic elements. Hell, all the movies I love have flaws. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Marvel movies, they are all deeply flawed and problematic. However, the flaws are fun to discuss and pick apart while you’re watching them for the zillionth time. It’s part of what makes them special. It’s the piling on that I object to. Twilight is just fine. It just gets it worse than other genre fiction. 

[Cameron H. 23786]

48 minutes ago, EvRobert said:

I'm not saying that she shouldn't have written from her POV or her upbringing, but we should still call it out when it's problematic.

Like, I love me The Chronicles of Narnia. That was my first exposure to fantasy and allegory and really cool writing and mythology. And most of it is pretty good but book 5 (The Horse and His Boy) is DEEPLY problematic that is only borderline and marginally corrected in book 7, but book 7 also has that horrible revelation that Susan was more concerned with boys and dresses and parties and forgot all about Narnia and didn't get to go back when her siblings all died. Like Lewis is is saying that if you like boys and dresses and parties you don't deserve to go to heaven. 

And I'm going to call it out. I still love Narnia (and I really love Lewis' Space Trilogy) but that doesn't mean he didn't write from a problematic POV that may have influenced people negatively (thankfully the Narnia neighbors who are problematic in the books never showed up in the films)

Yes, and you turned out alright. Taylor read Twilight in High School and now she’s a badass  

I think we are worrying too much on what we think might happen when people read stuff with problematic elements than what actually does happen. Intelligent people will be fine. Dumb people will always be dumb.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

9 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I’m not saying that they AREN’T problematic. I’m saying that they are no more problematic then a lot of stuff. Everything from Romeo & Juliet to The Hunger Games has shit that’s problematic. Twilight just gets picked on more - especially, but not exclusively, by dudes. There are antecedents to everything in the Twilight books, but as a culture, for some reason, we decided they were going to be our punching bag.

You both brought up anecdotes of people who emulated Bella and Edward-esque relationship traits. Well, kids used to tie sheets around their necks and jump of their roofs trying to fly like Superman. Some people are just dumb and miss the point, but I don’t think we need to ban Superman or suggest that the writers are failing our children.

I mean, are the books poorly written? Absolutely, but that didn’t stop them from being massively successful. Are they lasting pieces of literature? Honestly, I don’t know. What I can say is that we’re still talking about them 10 years after the fact. That’s pretty goddamn impressive. So who knows? (Do people even talk about The Hunger Games anymore?) Are the movies bad? Well, they made a ton of money (mostly from dumb people who hated them apparently ). They were covered on HDTGM? So are the Fast and Furious movies. And, as I recall, Paul, Jason, and Doug admitted to not only liking the last one, but crying at the end!

This is what I’m going to say: Twilight is not perfect. There are flaws. Sure. But all movies have flaws. There will always be problematic elements. Hell, all the movies I love have flaws. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Marvel movies, they are all deeply flawed and problematic. However, the flaws are fun to discuss and pick apart while you’re watching them for the zillionth time. It’s part of what makes them special. It’s the piling on that I object to. Twilight is just fine. It just gets it worse than other genre fiction. 

Alright, I see what you're saying now, but I think what we're getting hung up on here is the fact that we are indeed talking about Twilight specifically in this instance, so obviously it's going to be our punching bag. If we were going over Hunger Games I would talk about fucking Liam Hemsworth's character who's name I keep forgetting as the other epitome of WAH FRIENDZONED AND FUCK HER CHOICES RAH!

And I would have to say that this isn't just anecdotal evidence. I lived it.

There's truly a difference in people being stupid and thinking they can fly, and then the representation of men and women and hetero relationships effecting the youth.

Also, I'm not sure any of us were saying that these problematic flaws are the reason why we don't like these films/books (for me at least I can't speak to anyone else that has chimed in). In fact, before I recognized the problematic nature to this relationship I had realized they just weren't good lol. That's not the point I think any of us were trying to make. It's just that we happened to watch the last movie (which I actually really enjoyed) and were pointing out the things we don't like about this series now.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

5 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Yes, and you turned out alright. Taylor read Twilight in High School and now she’s a badass  

I think we are worrying too much on what we think might happen when people read stuff with problematic elements than what actually does happen. Intelligent people will be fine. Dumb people will always be dumb.

Yeah I'm a badass now. Imagine me back in the day though. Ugh wildly annoying LOL!

No but seriously, this is an interesting topic to discuss and it brings up a lot of points of whether or not fiction has any responsibility for what it portrays, and to me I think it does.

I think back onto how Whoopi Goldberg never would have become who she was if she hadn't seen Nichelle Nichols on TV, or how even Nichelle wouldn't have taken that job if MLK Jr hadn't called her and told her how important she was going to be for black kids all across the nation. I think about how much someone like Tess Holliday actually being a plus sized woman gracing the cover of Cosmo would've blown my fucking mind if I had seen it as this chubby girl in high school seeing nothing but stick thin "heroin chic" bull shit and hating my own body. It's the same as to why we see men taking the wrong message from Travis in Taxi Driver, and it's why I took the wrong message from something like Twilight and some other things I had been reading and watching at the time and let myself be taken down the path of toxic relationships because that's what appeared normal.

Like, obviously we can't all blame it on Twilight, cause listen I'll keep it 100 that my parents were not the beacon of "True Love" and I have some major trust issues from them lmao, but I do think that authors/screenwriters/showrunners/directors do have to take some of the responsibility for perpetuating ideals that are more harmful than good. No one is perfect, yes, but if we don't call out shit then nothing will change.

[Cameron H. 23786]

42 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

There's truly a difference in people being stupid and thinking they can fly, and then the representation of men and women and hetero relationships effecting the youth.

 

But that goes back to my previous points. The Twilight books weren’t trying to show us a healthy relationship. And I think viewing it as such is wrong. They were showing a relationship teenagers could relate to in their real lives. (“I know a guy like Jacob. He’s so nice. Im just not into him like that.” “I love my boyfriend but sometimes he can be so possessive.”)

The ideal relationship (at least according to Meyers) doesn’t occur until the final book/movie. No one should be looking at Twilight or New Moon and expect that what they’re seeing is True Love. If that were the case, there would only be one book. 

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

And I would have to say that this isn't just anecdotal evidence. I lived it.

Not to nitpick... but I need to point out that that's exactly what anecdotal evidence is - basing it on what you personally experience over actual research.

But I will add, anecdotal can be valid as a form of interpretation, as it is here... it's not like you're saying 'well my cancer went away because I drank vinegar'.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

1 hour ago, Cameron H. said:

But that goes back to my previous points. The Twilight books weren’t trying to show us a healthy relationship. And I think viewing it as such is wrong. They were showing a relationship teenagers could relate to in their real lives. (“I know a guy like Jacob. He’s so nice. Im just not into him like that.” “I love my boyfriend but sometimes he can be so possessive.”)

The ideal relationship (at least according to Meyers) doesn’t occur until the final book/movie. No one should be looking at Twilight or New Moon and expect that what they’re seeing is True Love. If that were the case, there would only be one book. 

Idk I still don't think I agree with that solely because these two still end up together. Sure they grow, but that's their perfectly structured fictional relationship and I still think it's setting women up for something not right, because men aren't Edward and they're not going to get their fairy tale ending. I think she's packaging the whole "oh don't worry if you see red flags, girls, he'll grow because of you and change!" and selling it to teenagers.

I legit asked my friends cause I'm still in the same friend group from high school and they just answered that while they didn't think it was normal behavior they definitely didn't think it was either alarming or creepy at all. Actually one of them just got her masters in psychology and said her supervisor at her clinic uses it as her "bad relationship" example with her teen clients. She said quote, "Every girl is like oh I thought that was just how it always is." 

I still am not saying it's all Twilight's fault, but because of the fact that it is so huge it definitely has more reach than other examples, especially since it's there specifically for teenage girls.

ETA: Also, while I disagree with Meyers intentions, to me none of that matters anyway. She could legit wanted us all to see that, but the point is teen girls are seeing Edward as romantic. They are seeing these actions become normalized. They are falling into dangerous situations because they saw it played out in front of them. Call it dumb people being dumb all you want but when it's enough girls for therapists and counselors to actually reference it, then it's more than that.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

1 minute ago, AlmostAGhost said:

Not to nitpick... but I need to point out that that's exactly what anecdotal evidence is - basing it on what you personally experience over actual research.

But I will add, anecdotal can be valid as a form of interpretation, as it is here... it's not like you're saying 'well my cancer went away because I drank vinegar'.

Fair and valid. People usually yell about anecdotal evidence when they're hearing something second hand so I'm very used to it only being used in that sense. I promise this isn't second hand info lol.

[grudlian. 4725]

2 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

Well, then let’s just go ahead and throw away all Fiction and Art ever created that’s based on a person’s upbringing, beliefs, and religion. Did Burgess write A Clockwork Orange because he hoped people would emulate Alex? People idolize Travis Bickle (for the wrong reasons) so I guess Taxi Driver is completely devoid of merit.

Look, I’m not saying the books are perfect or that I agree with everything (or anything) in them. But I feel like most of the criticism about them has to do with a backlash against literature aimed for women rather than anything truly substantive. The same themes that occur on in Twilight are common in a lot of Romance novels, but because Twilight was such a success, it bares the brunt of the animosity. It’s the reason why erotic fiction is looked down upon as being less than even while being a BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. For many years, Romance Novels were Amazon’s primary money maker. Yet, Romance books and writers are under attack all the time. Once Amazon established itself, it immediately tried to squelch the thing that made it a success. 

So, is Jacob incel? Probably not that extreme, but yes. Why? Because that’s a character type teenage girls are familiar with! He’s fucking Duckie! A character that people understood 20 Years earlier. These criticisms are precisely why the books resonate with people. 

I mean, give me a movie and I will nitpick it to death for you. Hell, I do it here all the time.  

I think a huge difference between A Clockwork Orange and Taxi Driver is that the intention of the creators (which I guess depends on if you think authorial intent matters).

I don't think Scorsese or Kubrick (or Anthony Burgess) find Travis Bickle or Alex to be likeable characters. We aren't supposed to identify with them. I believe Stephanie Meyer wants her audience to identify with Bella and I think she's fine with her actions. People who idealize Travis Bickle are misinterpreting Taxi Driver but people taking the wrong message from Twilight are getting exactly what Meyer wanted them to get. That's the difference to me.

Dismissing Twilight's flaws as a fairy tale doesn't seem quite right to me. Many fairy tales, fantasies and fables are written specifically to teach us lessons about ourselves or society. Lots of women (and I speculate the majority of Twilight fans) are taking the wrong messages from Twilight. They love Edward or Jacob even pining for someone who is as good to them as Edward. They want to be in Bella's situation.

It's perfectly fine for you to enjoy Twilight for what you find there. But I find it reinforces negative, misogynist stereotypes way more than any of its potential positives.

[Cameron H. 23786]

36 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

Idk I still don't think I agree with that solely because these two still end up together. Sure they grow, but that's their perfectly structured fictional relationship and I still think it's setting women up for something not right, because men aren't Edward and they're not going to get their fairy tale ending. I think she's packaging the whole "oh don't worry if you see red flags, girls, he'll grow because of you and change!" and selling it to teenagers.

I legit asked my friends cause I'm still in the same friend group from high school and they just answered that while they didn't think it was normal behavior they definitely didn't think it was either alarming or creepy at all. Actually one of them just got her masters in psychology and said her supervisor at her clinic uses it as her "bad relationship" example with her teen clients. She said quote, "Every girl is like oh I thought that was just how it always is." 

I still am not saying it's all Twilight's fault, but because of the fact that it is so huge it definitely has more reach than other examples, especially since it's there specifically for teenage girls.

And that’s all I’m saying, it’s intention versus interpretation. The author can only control one. If someone interprets Twilight literally, then, yes, it’s no good. But at that point, we’re getting mad at Twilight because someone misinterpreted a metaphor. It’s getting mad at Paul McCartney because he wrote a song about a carnival ride that was later interpreted by a crazy person as the clarion call of a race war. 

All fairy tales set unreasonable and unrealistic expectations. An abusive, possessive monster becomes a better person due to the patience and perseverance of the woman he holds at his mercy? That’s not Twilight, that’s Beauty and the Beast! At heart, Fairy Tales are dark and are not meant to show a realistic representation of how life actually is. Most fairy tales end in marriage after fleeting encounters. It’s what we hope will happen (“Wouldn’t it be great if I met the perfect person out of nowhere”) not how things actually are. That’s why they are steeped in the magical and supernatural and not about a couple of boring kids who work at Kroger. It’s make believe. It’s not Twilight’s fault if people don’t get that or take it the wrong way.

And don’t get me wrong, I used to be down on Twilight too. But my opinions have evolved the more I’ve seen it.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

4 minutes ago, grudlian. said:

They love Edward or Jacob even pining for someone who is as good to them as Edward. They want to be in Bella's situation.

I thought y'all would find this funny as my friends and I continue to discuss this now lol!

There's a lot of evidence to this point exactly on my early Facebook feed and it is the most embarrassing shit ever.

[Cameron H. 23786]

1 hour ago, grudlian. said:

I believe Stephanie Meyer wants her audience to identify with Bella and I think she's fine with her actions. 

Why do you believe this though? If in New Moon, Bella engages in risky behavior after a heartbreak, and every character is like, “What the fuck are you doing?” (Which they repeatedly do), how is Meyers endorsing Bella’s behavior? If she, the author, has her characters questioning what Bella’s doing, then she recognizes that the behavior she is engaging in is wrong. Otherwise, everyone would be like “You go, Bella. Jump off cliffs if it makes you feel closer to Edward! Great idea!” Instead, everyone is like “Pull yourself together. You’re a fucking mess.”

What’s problematic is that after engaging in this behavior, she gets back together with Edward. It would have been healthier for her to be like, “You know what? Yeah, you hurt me, bro. But I’m good with being me.” But that’s what would be good in real life. In her books, they are supposed to be soul mates and just meant to be - end of story. They can work through their issues. What works for Bella and Edward works exclusively for Bella and Edward because Bella and Edward are fictional characters in a fantasy novel and that’s what the fantasy novel is specifically about.

Obviously this is one specific example, but the point can be applied to most of what happens through the series.

As I mentioned above, Belle shouldn’t end up with the Beast. Ariel shouldn’t end up with Eric. Jasmine shouldn’t end up with Aladdin. Snow White shouldn’t end up with Prince Charming. And on and on and on. If someone thinks, “I feel kind of bad about it, but I just watched Aladdin and thought that I would pretend to be someone else for awhile to get close to this person. And if she ever finds out I’ve been lying to her, it’s cool because she will know my intentions were pure” then the problem is with them, not with Disney. 

What’s important is in the first movie, a scared and indecisive Bella runs away from danger. A single vampire. In the final movie, a strong and confident Bella, literally reborn, confronts an army of the most dangerous vampires head on. So if you’re just looking at movies 1, 2, and 3 and criticizing it for specific moments, but ignoring where her character eventually ends up, then I don’t know what to tell you. It’s like basing everything you know about Harry Potter on the first six books, but ignoring everything that happens in the Deathly Hallows.

And, again, I’m arguing for a series I don’t necessarily like. I’m just fighting against knee-jerkism and dog piling. People are so quick to dismiss a very popular book series - and by extension it’s legion of fans. I’d like to afford it at least a little consideration. I’m trying to understand the appeal, and I think I do. That’s all.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

30 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I’m just fighting against knee-jerkism and dog piling. People are so quick to dismiss a very popular book series - and by extension it’s legion of fans.

But no one here is doing that. We all happen to have very specific feelings about this series, and I don't see the point in going against them because you think it's not well thought out. You're speaking to us as if we're all in the same boat of those who rag on the fans online and dismiss them (mostly because of their gender). I'm here telling you I was one of those fans and that I feel my feelings on this very popular book series are being dismissed literally right now.

[Cameron H. 23786]

22 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

But no one here is doing that. We all happen to have very specific feelings about this series, and I don't see the point in going against them because you think it's not well thought out. You're speaking to us as if we're all in the same boat of those who rag on the fans online and dismiss them (mostly because of their gender). I'm here telling you I was one of those fans and that I feel my feelings on this very popular book series are being dismissed literally right now.

I’m literally the only fighting in favor of these movies - lol  I’m not dismissing anyone or attacking anyone’s views. I’m defending Twilight in the same way I defend the Prequel Trilogy. People pick on them as “easy targets.”  

The whole reason this even came up was Watch Out For Snakes said she couldn’t get through the first movie. I replied that, in my opinion, they get better and gave a theory I had on the Twilight Saga and was subsequently told that the books were “gross” and “left a bad taste.” After that, I just gave me rationale and defense for thinking they were fine. You guys gave me reasons why you think they’re not. And I responded in kind. I’m not dismissing, I’m listening and I’m engaging. Specifically, I’m engaging in a conversation with about five people who think I’m dead wrong - lol. 

[Cameron H. 23786]

5 hours ago, EvRobert said:

IIRC, Bella's father and mother never find a meaningful relationship after their divorce

This got lost in the shuffle, the catalyst for Bella moving to Forks is her mother getting married to a baseball player and moving to Jacksonville. Her father hooks up with one of the women from Jacob’s tribe. (I can’t remember her name). 

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

Fair and valid. People usually yell about anecdotal evidence when they're hearing something second hand so I'm very used to it only being used in that sense. I promise this isn't second hand info lol.

You got anecdotal evidence about what anecdotal evidence is, haha!  But yea, hearing something secondhand could be anecdotal, sure. But the opposite of anecdotal isn't 'my own experience' it's 'verifiable provable evidence.' That's why anecdotal is something to try to avoid. (I read about this stuff a lot, sorry.)

Anyway I'm a little lost on the discussion here because I've been in and out today, so sorry if this is repetitive of earlier posts by others. But I did like the first two movies a lot because I thought the 'teen romance' side of Twilight was pretty good. Like, yes, early romance will be with the wrong guy, or there's a jerky 'friend' who wants you, or even just on a basic level -- young readers like Bella having to decide between two guys. (Even if they're both awful.) It's wish fulfillment. My take on liking that side of the romance was less to do with it being some perfect 'true love' and the fact that young 'love' is usually problematic, and therefore it all felt sort of real to me. I really did get sucked into the romance side of the story. Then when they get married and are parents, that changes the whole feel of the later books for me and I didn't enjoy them nearly as much.