Avengers: Endgame *SPOILERS*

[taylor anne photo 11311]

SPOILER ALERT! SPOILERS AHEAD! TURN BACK NOW IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE

Here it is! The official place for all things Avengers! This thread is specifically for all things Endgame including spoilers! This thread is titled as such so if anyone wants to complain about being spoiled this was literally your fault because it's in the title and said so many times here in this first post. SPOILER ALERT OKAY! 

I think we're all okay to also spoil any other Marvel movie at this point considering this was legitimately made to be a huge wrap up of the last 11 years. But please don't spoil any other movies currently out in theaters or within the last couple of months. Also this goes without saying but please be respectful of everyone else's opinions and feelings on the movie. 

Now let's all cry together!

[RyanSz 3140]

This could have gone wrong in so many ways but Marvel nailed it on nearly everything, it was fan service in the BEST way imaginable. The way that they created applause/cheer break scenes that gave the audience enough time to savor before quieting to get back to the movie is something I've never seen done so much or so well in a film, especially with the worthy Cap scene and the army reveal. I loved the return characters from so many films and the fact that 99% of them weren't just quick appearances but actually added something to the story. My only issues with the film were I found Nerd Hulk oddly disconcerting to look at, it was like they did too well with how he looked. The other was the ending for Captain America, as I just read an article that broke down all of the issues with it in concern to how the overall movie played out because it Back to the Futures almost every huge event in MCU history https://www.thewrap.com/avengers-endgame-that-last-captain-america-scene-makes-no-sense-peggy/. But even with that it still didn't stop me from giving this a five star rating on Letterboxd, this movie was just that good.

[theworstbuddhist 572]

On 4/27/2019 at 12:12 AM, RyanSz said:

This could have gone wrong in so many ways but Marvel nailed it on nearly everything, it was fan service in the BEST way imaginable. The way that they created applause/cheer break scenes that gave the audience enough time to savor before quieting to get back to the movie is something I've never seen done so much or so well in a film, especially with the worthy Cap scene and the army reveal. I loved the return characters from so many films and the fact that 99% of them weren't just quick appearances but actually added something to the story. My only issues with the film were I found Nerd Hulk oddly disconcerting to look at, it was like they did too well with how he looked. The other was the ending for Captain America, as I just read an article that broke down all of the issues with it in concern to how the overall movie played out because it Back to the Futures almost every huge event in MCU history https://www.thewrap.com/avengers-endgame-that-last-captain-america-scene-makes-no-sense-peggy/. But even with that it still didn't stop me from giving this a five star rating on Letterboxd, this movie was just that good.

As the movie itself points out several times, the Back to the Future model of time travel is bullshit. Because, you know. All time travel is bullshit.

The only thing that bothered me a little about Steve's ending - which I pretty much have been expecting since the first Cap film - is that there is a scene in Winter Soldier where he visits old Peggy and sees that she eventually did marry and have a family. I plan to go back and look at that scene a little more closely and see if there are any hints - was it always Steve, and she just couldn't tell him because her mind was going at that point?

Seeing all the cameos was a lot of fun. They even brought in Jarvis from the Agent Carter series, though I didn't notice any SHIELD characters apart from Fury, Coulson and Hill, which kind of sucks for the rest of that cast. I think my favourite moment of the calvary-arrives scene was Spider-Man's return.

The only moment of the movie that didn't make sense for me was when Tony grabs the infinity stones out of the gauntlet somehow and puts them into his armor. It was so quick I felt like I missed something.

Other random thoughts:

I like that not only is Gamora back, she doesn't seems to especially like Peter Quill, never mind love him.

Captain Marvel is still the fucking best. Brie Larson's ability to switch from cool deadpan to warm humour is perfect for the role.

I enjoyed Smart Hulk and Beer Gut Thor. Not so much Ronin (I think that is what Hawkeye calls himself in the comics when he goes rogue). I was hoping his daughter would turn out to be Kate Bishop, the other (and arguably better) Hawkeye.

When Banner talks about how he should use the stones because most of the radiation involved is gamma, I wondered if they were setting up a Planet Hulk story. For that matter, now that they have a Microverse (sorry, "quantum realm") they could adapt Harlan Ellison's old Hulk story. But I don't know if Ruffalo plans on starring in anything else for Marvel. I wonder if they will introduce Amadeus Cho.

The tapping noise in lieu of an end credits cookie is being speculated about online - some think it's meant to represent Tony making the first Iron Man suit in the cave. Others theorize that it is some kind of hint toward the next major (Earth-based) villain - Namor, the Sub-Mariner. And if that is the case, I have to wonder - now that Disney/Marvel are basically richer than God, why not buy back the Fantastic Four rights? And just buy the Micronauts rights for that matter, once and for all?

The cosmic heroes are going to be fighting the likes of Adam Warlock, and I think they are also developing a film of The Eternals. Sure would be nice to have Galactus and the Silver Surfer available. I expect they will introduce the SWORD initiative back on Earth as well. Maybe Captain Universe?

Does Peter Parker go back to fucking high school? Or is that a university where he reunites with Ned after 5 years? Or maybe Ned was dusted too so they both have to go back?

It was pretty ballsy of them to introduce Tony's daughter and then kill him.

Seemed a little random that a rat basically got the whole thing going by activating the van in the storage locker, but whatever.

[RyanSz 3140]

1 hour ago, theworstbuddhist said:

As the movie itself points out several times, the Back to the Future model of time travel is bullshit. Because, you know. All time travel is bullshit.

The only thing that bothered me a little about Steve's ending - which I pretty much have been expecting since the first Cap film - is that there is a scene in Winter Soldier where he visits old Peggy and sees that she eventually did marry and have a family. I plan to go back and look at that scene a little more closely and see if there are any hints - was it always Steve, and she just couldn't tell him because her mind was going at that point?

Seeing all the cameos was a lot of fun. They even brought in Jarvis from the Agent Carter series, though I didn't notice any SHIELD characters apart from Fury, Coulson and Hill, which kind of sucks for the rest of that cast. I think my favourite moment of the calvary-arrives scene was Spider-Man's return.

The only moment of the movie that didn't make sense for me was when Tony grabs the infinity stones out of the gauntlet somehow and puts them into his armor. It was so quick I felt like I missed something.

Other random thoughts:

I like that not only is Gamora back, she doesn't seems to especially like Peter Quill, never mind love him.

Captain Marvel is still the fucking best. Brie Larson's ability to switch from cool deadpan to warm humour is perfect for the role.

I enjoyed Smart Hulk and Beer Gut Thor. Not so much Ronin (I think that is what Hawkeye calls himself in the comics when he goes rogue). I was hoping his daughter would turn out to be Kate Bishop, the other (and arguably better) Hawkeye.

When Banner talks about how he should use the stones because most of the radiation involved is gamma, I wondered if they were setting up a Planet Hulk story. For that matter, now that they have a Microverse (sorry, "quantum realm") they could adapt Harlan Ellison's old Hulk story. But I don't know if Ruffalo plans on starring in anything else for Marvel. I wonder if they will introduce Amadeus Cho.

The tapping noise in lieu of an end credits cookie is being speculated about online - some think it's meant to represent Tony making the first Iron Man suit in the cave. Others theorize that it is some kind of hint toward the next major (Earth-based) villain - Namor, the Sub-Mariner. And if that is the case, I have to wonder - now that Disney/Marvel are basically richer than God, why not buy back the Fantastic Four rights? And just buy the Micronauts rights for that matter, once and for all?

The cosmic heroes are going to be fighting the likes of Adam Warlock, and I think they are also developing a film of The Eternals. Sure would be nice to have Galactus and the Silver Surfer available. I expect they will introduce the SWORD initiative back on Earth as well. Maybe Captain Universe?

Does Peter Parker go back to fucking high school? Or is that a university where he reunites with Ned after 5 years? Or maybe Ned was dusted too so they both have to go back?

It was pretty ballsy of them to introduce Tony's daughter and then kill him.

Seemed a little random that a rat basically got the whole thing going by activating the van in the storage locker, but whatever.

 Since time travel is fake though you can make up the rules as you see them or break them as you see them, which is what they were doing by calling BTF untrue, but then following the rules of it when they went back in time (not running into past selves, making huge changes), so it was weird that after all that Steve goes fuck it and just rearranges 70 years of history. I have seen some theories that it's not Peggy he's married to but that he managed to bring back Black Widow from the time stream and that's who he was with, also leading to why Banner couldn't bring her back to the present because she had already been brought back to the past. I am now a bit more interested in the Black Widow movie, which I believe is supposed to be out as the last MCU movie for 2020 or the first for 2021, while The Eternals is starting filming in three months so that should be coming out next year, while Black Panther 2 is looking to come out 2021 along with Doctor Strange 2 being another likely film for that year, Guardians 3 in 2022 at the earliest,  then Shang Chi has no timeline yet as they are still finding a cast and crew for it. Seeing as though that's only half of the movies that could be in this Phase given the recent release record of Marvel, I expect there to be a Captain Marvel 2, and possibly a Captain America/Winter Soldier film, along with the recent properties Disney got, which does include Fantastic Four.

With Tony grabbing the stones, if I recall, he uses both hands to grab Thano's gauntlet and it's his right hand that ends up with the stones. After the years of seeing the various ways Tony has created suits that form around his body, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a pickpocket mode built into one for this such occasion, akin to Spider-Man's suit that has 1,000 different modes that he can use at any moment. I was irked by Nebula killing her past self because that just creates the offshoot reality that the Ancient One was warning against, and even having past Gamora running around in the present is more of those same issues. I have heard rumors that Marvel might be setting up The Maestro as a big bad, given that there is smart Hulk now, which could be interesting given that they really haven't given Hulk a standalone film since Phase 1.

I also wondered about all of the people who came back, like how do you go about normal life after being gone for five years and you know why you were gone? They apparently haven't aged so Hawkeye is now five years older than when they last saw him, and then you have the people who come back but find out that their loved ones either died over the course of the five year gap, or via survivor's guilt killed themselves. As far as the rat goes, that I liked because of the randomness of the universe, it would most likely be an animal or something falling on the machine to reactivate it. My one big question was regarding when the people came back, what is there reaction to seeing how everyone that lived just said screw it and apparently didn't pick up a single piece of trash in the ensuing five years.

[theworstbuddhist 572]

7 hours ago, RyanSz said:

 I also wondered about all of the people who came back, like how do you go about normal life after being gone for five years and you know why you were gone? They apparently haven't aged so Hawkeye is now five years older than when they last saw him, and then you have the people who come back but find out that their loved ones either died over the course of the five year gap, or via survivor's guilt killed themselves. As far as the rat goes, that I liked because of the randomness of the universe, it would most likely be an animal or something falling on the machine to reactivate it. My one big question was regarding when the people came back, what is there reaction to seeing how everyone that lived just said screw it and apparently didn't pick up a single piece of trash in the ensuing five years.

Bahaha.

I don't really have any disagreement on the movie speculations. I'm happy with Endgame as it is. I do like to try and spot weird little things that seem meaningless at first but turn out to be important later. I went and read that article you linked to and there are some interesting speculations in the comments - the Russo brothers have allegedly confirmed that Steve goes into a different timeline to live out his life. I like to think it was with Peggy, either in an alternate timeline or that it was always him who she married in her TV series, and she just doesn't know him in Winter Soldier due to her dementia. The latter option is certainly sadder.

Have you watched the TV series The Leftovers? It's a brilliant and terrifying story about what happens when a seemingly random 2% of the population just disappears. It's been on my mind thanks to Infinity War. Now I wonder if the author of the book The Leftovers was based on was inspired by the Infinity War comics...

The other thing I kept thinking about while watching Endgame was an Avengers annual from the 1970s by Jim Starlin which basically wraps up his classic Adam Warlock story. It includes a huge battle with Thanos and The Avengers. They have a special credit thanking Starlin for his "significant" contributions to the film.

Everyone: comic shops and comic artists need your love and money. If you loved Endgame, get to a comic shop and buy the trade collection of Starlin's Warlock. It's some of the trippiest shit you'll ever read and it will give you a preview of what's coming up with the Guardians of the Galaxy and probably Captain Marvel.

[RyanSz 3140]

I started the Leftovers a year ago but got caught up in other things so I plan on going back to it. Though I don't think the novel was too inspired by the comics as Thanos did what he did in the original Gauntlet series to bang Lady Death, which is what was teased in the end credits for Avengers 1, but changed to a more philosophical reason in Infinity War. I would love to see them adapt the recent Infinity Wars storyline for the screen, though they could easily replace Gamora, who is now back in the universe, with Black Widow who's apparently trapped in the Soul Stone realm now. It would be an amazing reveal for the Marvel heroes to go at it with the new big bad for the reveal to be a newly returned Widow, looking to further alter shit after realizing her sacrifice and being stuck in that realm might not have been the wisest choice.

As for supporting the comics industry, if you can't spend the money yourself to buy comics, there is always the library. I have a sizeable budget each year to buy graphic novels for the collection at where I work and those are either based on my reading habits or what requests I receive from patrons. It's now led to us doing our own comic convention which this year will have over fifty artists/writers/sellers, which I will say is a blast to do but a fucking nightmare to put together, I can't even imagine the work that goes into the bigger shows like SDCC or WonderCon.

[theworstbuddhist 572]

12 hours ago, RyanSz said:

I started the Leftovers a year ago but got caught up in other things so I plan on going back to it. Though I don't think the novel was too inspired by the comics as Thanos did what he did in the original Gauntlet series to bang Lady Death, which is what was teased in the end credits for Avengers 1, but changed to a more philosophical reason in Infinity War. I would love to see them adapt the recent Infinity Wars storyline for the screen, though they could easily replace Gamora, who is now back in the universe, with Black Widow who's apparently trapped in the Soul Stone realm now. It would be an amazing reveal for the Marvel heroes to go at it with the new big bad for the reveal to be a newly returned Widow, looking to further alter shit after realizing her sacrifice and being stuck in that realm might not have been the wisest choice.

As for supporting the comics industry, if you can't spend the money yourself to buy comics, there is always the library. I have a sizeable budget each year to buy graphic novels for the collection at where I work and those are either based on my reading habits or what requests I receive from patrons. It's now led to us doing our own comic convention which this year will have over fifty artists/writers/sellers, which I will say is a blast to do but a fucking nightmare to put together, I can't even imagine the work that goes into the bigger shows like SDCC or WonderCon.

Good on you. I just did a how-to-make comics talk at the library in the city I used to live. And you're right, ppl should absolutely use the library to read the comics they can't afford. In Canada and I assume other countries, the creators can actually claim royalties through a government program based on library readership.

[RyanSz 3140]

4 hours ago, theworstbuddhist said:

Good on you. I just did a how-to-make comics talk at the library in the city I used to live. And you're right, ppl should absolutely use the library to read the comics they can't afford. In Canada and I assume other countries, the creators can actually claim royalties through a government program based on library readership.

I don't know so much about readership but they do get royalties from purchase through various library vendors, which really helps if they get a run on demand, such as how I'll be waiting a year probably before my library gets its order of the first two volumes of The Umbrella Academy now that the show has come out.

[grudlian. 4725]

On 5/5/2019 at 10:37 AM, RyanSz said:

 Since time travel is fake though you can make up the rules as you see them or break them as you see them, which is what they were doing by calling BTF untrue, but then following the rules of it when they went back in time (not running into past selves, making huge changes), so it was weird that after all that Steve goes fuck it and just rearranges 70 years of history. I have seen some theories that it's not Peggy he's married to but that he managed to bring back Black Widow from the time stream and that's who he was with, also leading to why Banner couldn't bring her back to the present because she had already been brought back to the past. I am now a bit more interested in the Black Widow movie, which I believe is supposed to be out as the last MCU movie for 2020 or the first for 2021, while The Eternals is starting filming in three months so that should be coming out next year, while Black Panther 2 is looking to come out 2021 along with Doctor Strange 2 being another likely film for that year, Guardians 3 in 2022 at the earliest,  then Shang Chi has no timeline yet as they are still finding a cast and crew for it. Seeing as though that's only half of the movies that could be in this Phase given the recent release record of Marvel, I expect there to be a Captain Marvel 2, and possibly a Captain America/Winter Soldier film, along with the recent properties Disney got, which does include Fantastic Four.

With Tony grabbing the stones, if I recall, he uses both hands to grab Thano's gauntlet and it's his right hand that ends up with the stones. After the years of seeing the various ways Tony has created suits that form around his body, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a pickpocket mode built into one for this such occasion, akin to Spider-Man's suit that has 1,000 different modes that he can use at any moment. I was irked by Nebula killing her past self because that just creates the offshoot reality that the Ancient One was warning against, and even having past Gamora running around in the present is more of those same issues. I have heard rumors that Marvel might be setting up The Maestro as a big bad, given that there is smart Hulk now, which could be interesting given that they really haven't given Hulk a standalone film since Phase 1.

I also wondered about all of the people who came back, like how do you go about normal life after being gone for five years and you know why you were gone? They apparently haven't aged so Hawkeye is now five years older than when they last saw him, and then you have the people who come back but find out that their loved ones either died over the course of the five year gap, or via survivor's guilt killed themselves. As far as the rat goes, that I liked because of the randomness of the universe, it would most likely be an animal or something falling on the machine to reactivate it. My one big question was regarding when the people came back, what is there reaction to seeing how everyone that lived just said screw it and apparently didn't pick up a single piece of trash in the ensuing five years.

The Back To The Future stuff felt really weird to me because it felt like it would make more sense to just have Bruce say "We don't know how it works or what the effects would be". It seems a lot easier than actively having a guy tell you it's bullshit after he says it's not his expertise then violating what he says anyway. It's funnier to have the BTTF scenes but it didn't make much sense (which is a common complaint I have with the MCU).

Tony getting the stones really annoyed me. I excuse most the other illogical scenes for emotional weight or their comedy offsetting it but this felt like lazy writing or just lying to the audience. I can come up with a theory on Tony Stark made the new gauntlet but he developed a back door on the gauntlet that would allow him to... it just feels like after 11 years, I want more than "Tony's a genius so he definitely invented some deus ex machina"

But other than that, I don't have major beef with the movie. It was emotional. It was funny. It was way better than I expected it to be. 

[RyanSz 3140]

3 hours ago, grudlian. said:

The Back To The Future stuff felt really weird to me because it felt like it would make more sense to just have Bruce say "We don't know how it works or what the effects would be". It seems a lot easier than actively having a guy tell you it's bullshit after he says it's not his expertise then violating what he says anyway. It's funnier to have the BTTF scenes but it didn't make much sense (which is a common complaint I have with the MCU).

Tony getting the stones really annoyed me. I excuse most the other illogical scenes for emotional weight or their comedy offsetting it but this felt like lazy writing or just lying to the audience. I can come up with a theory on Tony Stark made the new gauntlet but he developed a back door on the gauntlet that would allow him to... it just feels like after 11 years, I want more than "Tony's a genius so he definitely invented some deus ex machina"

But other than that, I don't have major beef with the movie. It was emotional. It was funny. It was way better than I expected it to be. 

Yeah the ending involving Cap reminds me of the Denzel Washington film Deja Vu, wherein it's revealed over the course of the movie he's time traveled at least three times in order to prevent a terrorist attack from happening, he just doesn't realize it because his double is out of sight from him. This logic would work for Endgame in that Cap could be married to Peggy while still be unfrozen to lead the Avengers in the 2010s, but it doesn't explain what then happened to her entire history with her family unless in Winter Soldier was Old Cap hiding from Young Cap, or the fact that the biggest war hero of WWII all of a sudden was just hanging out after the war was over, I'm assuming someone in SHIELD like Coulson would have wondered how Cap could be unfrozen but also have been living in America from after the war until present time. In the end it's still not fully sitting well with the attempt at making rules while somewhat abiding by old rules and

[CaptainAmazing 127]

I feel like there is a really simple explanation as to how Tony got the stones from a gauntlet that he designed and built himself. I’m kind of annoyed that they didn’t bother to tell us what it was.