EPISODE 191 — Drizzle, No Apologies

[KajusX 1807]

I would like to completely non-helpfully point out that calling someone a 'pussy' comes from being scared like a 'pussy cat,' otherwise known as a 'puss,' due to cats exhibiting a very stringent behavioral policy about staying out of the way of any perceived threats of danger, however slight.

 

Of course, for 300+ years now, 'pussy' is also used to refer to ladies and their vaginas, so when I am playing a video game online and a guy calls me a 'pussy' because I hid for a second in order to get the drop on him and successfully kill him, I take it at face value that maybe he meant I was playing like a cat, but then when he follows it up by calling me a cunt and a little girl, then I'm like, "Oh, ok. He meant it the other way; the way where he's telling me I'm like a woman because women are bad and he thinks I'm bad like how women are."

 

SO. That's like, trash talk. We're just (assumed) bros, this anonymous guy and me! Maybe this guy isn't a misogynist, but he's using the language of misogynists to express anger at me, a stranger, over a game. But even if I asked him point blank, "Do you hate women? And if not, why do you talk like that?" This guy, and a lot of people, would probably not have a well-thought out answer beyond, "It's just trash talk." It's fucking lazy short-hand hate. Let me pull up demeaning words for people who don't have the power, and equate a person I don't like to these people because I want to insult this person personally but get a whole group of people involved as well by using words that insult huge swathes of the population.

 

Kind of an obtuse point. I'm not being entirely on-topic. I just ran into this example recently and was like, "UGH."

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

as they say in Hotwives season one, maybe everybody should "calm down". I think everybody made their point.

 

However, I will open up the Case Closed Octogon if anyone wants to step in next recording.

But I won't participate.

Why not

[illuminatedwax 59]

I think there are some aspects of this that hadn't been brought up.

 

Don't you need to have people be outraged in order for punks to have any kind of value at all? If everyone and their mom is super into Johnny Rotten spitting on them, it loses all of its power. Without that outrage, it just becomes a Green Day concert. The same thing applies to Matt's "economics" argument: if no one is outraged at someone saying shitty things, then people who actually say shitty things will keep selling out shows.

 

Offense is really just a measurement of what is and what is not the status quo. And it can go both ways. When NWA says "fuck the police" or Ice-T talks about killing cops, that's partially intended to be offensive, and it's offensive for the purpose of highlighting how shitty the police system is. But being offended can also be going against the status quo, too: when reporters go out and write the latest article demanding an apology from a comedian, it's for the purpose of saying, hey, I think this is something we should add to our list of "shit we won't put up with".

 

I think it goes without saying that most journalists are not very good at this.

 

Journalists don't realize who's on their side. If that one writer knew anything about Tim Meadows, they'd realize that he's on their side, and they have better people to write about. The age-old problem with going against conservative thought is that you get overzealous and start attacking people on your side. I have a friend who says "it's easier to punch your neighbor than lead a revolution."

 

Journalists are also lazy as fuck, too. That journalist should really be taking a huge hit to her credibility for posting such a blatantly false article, but she probably won't. I think we need to be spending more time shaming journalists who write significantly factually incorrect material than shaming comedians at an open mic who haven't figured out the best way to get across to the audience that their latest joke is against racism or sexism or whatever and still keep it funny.

 

I took some Second City classes, and they have a saying: stereotypes, sexism, racism, etc., are the swamp. And if you decide to go out into the swamp, make sure it's clear to your audience that you're going out there to get something valuable. The one comic who does all stereotype work -- is he doing it to show how bad stereotypes are and use irony to demonstrate how to explode that kind of thinking in our own lives? Or is he just doing it because ha ha, I've heard that stereotype before! Because that has a far greater impact on people without power in our society than people with power.

 

What did Sun Kil Moon go out in the swamp for? It was to be petty towards a journalist that was rude to him. I don't know if it's misogynistic, but it is establishing power and dominance: if she hates me, it's only cause she wants to fuck me because I'm so great. But at the same time, I'm sure there are a lot of women out there who have dealt with guys who have used that exact attitude to put them down purely because they are a woman, so I think that resonates in a way with them that reminds them of real misogyny.

[JMonsterface 1974]

We're all allowed to speak and we're all allowed to judge. I don't see any reason why we need to fight with each other. Does anyone really care what anyone else here thinks politically in a way that would make a debate meaningful? If we're not really invested in a relationship with each other, why would we bother to engage in conflict? We gain nothing. And if we are, wouldn't it be more productive to try to bridge gaps and look past our differences? If all someone wants is to have their views heard, it's easy enough to do without addressing anyone in particular.

 

I enjoyed this episode, and I thought it was funny. I enjoy hearing Matt talk about something hes worked up about. Whether or not I agree doesn't come into play for me. Stephanie and Mookie were exceptional. I wonder though, if there was a third guest who couldn't make it.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

I think there are some aspects of this that hadn't been brought up.

 

Don't you need to have people be outraged in order for punks to have any kind of value at all? If everyone and their mom is super into Johnny Rotten spitting on them, it loses all of its power. Without that outrage, it just becomes a Green Day concert. The same thing applies to Matt's "economics" argument: if no one is outraged at someone saying shitty things, then people who actually say shitty things will keep selling out shows.

 

Offense is really just a measurement of what is and what is not the status quo. And it can go both ways. When NWA says "fuck the police" or Ice-T talks about killing cops, that's partially intended to be offensive, and it's offensive for the purpose of highlighting how shitty the police system is. But being offended can also be going against the status quo, too: when reporters go out and write the latest article demanding an apology from a comedian, it's for the purpose of saying, hey, I think this is something we should add to our list of "shit we won't put up with".

 

I think it goes without saying that most journalists are not very good at this.

 

Journalists don't realize who's on their side. If that one writer knew anything about Tim Meadows, they'd realize that he's on their side, and they have better people to write about. The age-old problem with going against conservative thought is that you get overzealous and start attacking people on your side. I have a friend who says "it's easier to punch your neighbor than lead a revolution."

 

Journalists are also lazy as fuck, too. That journalist should really be taking a huge hit to her credibility for posting such a blatantly false article, but she probably won't. I think we need to be spending more time shaming journalists who write significantly factually incorrect material than shaming comedians at an open mic who haven't figured out the best way to get across to the audience that their latest joke is against racism or sexism or whatever and still keep it funny.

 

I took some Second City classes, and they have a saying: stereotypes, sexism, racism, etc., are the swamp. And if you decide to go out into the swamp, make sure it's clear to your audience that you're going out there to get something valuable. The one comic who does all stereotype work -- is he doing it to show how bad stereotypes are and use irony to demonstrate how to explode that kind of thinking in our own lives? Or is he just doing it because ha ha, I've heard that stereotype before! Because that has a far greater impact on people without power in our society than people with power.

 

What did Sun Kil Moon go out in the swamp for? It was to be petty towards a journalist that was rude to him. I don't know if it's misogynistic, but it is establishing power and dominance: if she hates me, it's only cause she wants to fuck me because I'm so great. But at the same time, I'm sure there are a lot of women out there who have dealt with guys who have used that exact attitude to put them down purely because they are a woman, so I think that resonates in a way with them that reminds them of real misogyny.

Cosign 1000%. And it's not just a reminder of real misogyny, it's exactly what real misogyny sounds like. "(Some woman) totally wants to fuck me" is something rapists say about their victims all the time, and they usually get away with it. Throughout most of history misogynists have justified their oppression of women by claiming that women are lust-addled fuck monsters who can't control their sexual desires and ordered society will collapse if they're allowed to make their own choices. Kozelek wanted to put this journalist in her place and he decided to use the oldest laziest most damaging stereotype in human history. He deserves to be heckled.

[tyroneslothrop 124]

I guess this Kozelek stuff kind of took on it's own life since the argument earlier this week, eh.

[KajusX 1807]

women are lust-addled fuck monsters who can't control their sexual desires and ordered society will collapse if they're allowed to make their own choices.

oof pfchangs, out of context, this is pretty damning of your attitudes.

 

Also, Lust-Addled Fuck Monsters is a great name for something, but I don't know what. lol

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

Very excited to hear this debate on case closed. Last couple times I was disappointed with the quality of debaters but seems like Veegs is a pro. Please don't be a no-show!

Yo Thomas please give him more than an hour's notice in the middle of a workday cool?

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

It almost seems like this trend is the flip-side of cyber bullying: while it used to be super common to see a bunch of hate-speech, threats, and insults in the comments sections of articles, now it seems much more common to find people espousing on social justice.

It's not more common, it just seems like it's everywhere now because it didn't really exist until recently.

[AndyPacheco-Fores 437]

women are lust-addled fuck monsters who can't control their sexual desires and ordered society will collapse if they're allowed to make their own choices.

oof pfchangs, out of context, this is pretty damning of your attitudes.

 

uh oh I didn't expect my words to be taken out of context

men are lust-addled fuck monsters who can't control their sexual desires and ordered society will collapse if they're allowed to make their own choices.

PLZ SOUPRMAN DONT SEND YOUR MRA/REDPILL HERD AFTER ME

 

 

 

...dibs on The Lust-Addled Fuck Monsters as the name for my feminist punk band, we only play covers of this song and nothing else

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[matte 588]

It's fucking lazy short-hand hate. Let me pull up demeaning words for people who don't have the power, and equate a person I don't like to these people because I want to insult this person personally but get a whole group of people involved as well by using words that insult huge swathes of the population.

My gut reaction to that is to say, "But words can have two meanings!" And then I immediately remember how uncomfortable I feel when people use "gay" to mean "lame." I realize that some things are wrong to say, but calling it "hate", (like,saying that it promotes hatred of a people), seems to conflate it. Really it's just rude.

 

Maybe the way I wish people would react to these situations is to be like, "That is a sexist/racist/homophobic thing to say. You really can't say that." Instead of "That person is a sexist/racist/homophobe! SHAME THEM, so that others will fear the consequences!" It feels so angry mob-y.

 

stereotypes, sexism, racism, etc., are the swamp. And if you decide to go out into the swamp, make sure it's clear to your audience that you're going out there to get something valuable.

 

Now that's pretty cool, I like that.

[Kickpuncher 5012]

I know that Matty B runs Case Closed, but I'm not reading 2 1/2 pages of this and I feel sorry for anyone in the general public who is subjected to it in an episode.

 

Anyway, this episode was great, always love these two.

[souprman 10477]

This is very well stated. A couple points I'd like to comment on if that's cool.

 

What did Sun Kil Moon go out in the swamp for? It was to be petty towards a journalist that was rude to him. I don't know if it's misogynistic, but it is establishing power and dominance: if she hates me, it's only cause she wants to fuck me because I'm so great. But at the same time, I'm sure there are a lot of women out there who have dealt with guys who have used that exact attitude to put them down purely because they are a woman, so I think that resonates in a way with them that reminds them of real misogyny.

 

>What did Sun Kil Moon go out in the swamp for? It was to be petty towards a journalist that was rude to him.

 

True enough.

 

>I don't know if it's misogynistic, but it is establishing power and dominance: if she hates me, it's only cause she wants to fuck me because I'm so great.

 

This is where I feel people are missing or ignoring a significant part of the picture. This part of Kozelek's on stage persona is an act. He's playing the part because to a certain degree it's been foisted on him. It's him saying; "Look at me being the big bully they all think I am." He does this knowing his audience, who knows him, and knows the incredibly literate and literary and deeply incisive and personal nature of his work, he knows they know he's not actually like that. This is the context I keep going on about. If you come to it cold and just focus on the words he said - yeah, you'd pretty much have to assume he hated women or some proximity thereof.

 

I'm fully prepared to enter the octagon.

[souprman 10477]

I know that Matty B runs Case Closed, but I'm not reading 2 1/2 pages of this and I feel sorry for anyone in the general public who is subjected to it in an episode.

 

Anyway, this episode was great, always love these two.

I'll totally shut up now.

[KajusX 1807]

My gut reaction to that is to say, "But words can have two meanings!" And then I immediately remember how uncomfortable I feel when people use "gay" to mean "lame." I realize that some things are wrong to say, but calling it "hate", (like,saying that it promotes hatred of a people), seems to conflate it. Really it's just rude.

 

Maybe the way I wish people would react to these situations is to be like, "That is a sexist/racist/homophobic thing to say. You really can't say that." Instead of "That person is a sexist/racist/homophobe! SHAME THEM, so that others will fear the consequences!" It feels so angry mob-y.

 

It is most definitely rude. That's pretty much where I come down on it too, even if I wasn't clear in my ramblings. This person in my example may not be hateful towards women in his heart, but the language he was using is, which leaves him open to accusations of himself being hateful. Trash talk (and in the realm of video games, hatemail), like most things in this world, often is base and lazy, grasping at the shorthand trigger words to criticize and demean an opponent by comparing them to something considered 'less than,' i.e. whatever is not normal and therefore bad. Often times everything falls under the 'not normal' banner other than caucasian, hetero, and male.

 

I thankfully do not get too much hatemail wherein people are using INSANELY offensive slurs, but when I do I have countered it by acknowledging there's nothing wrong with being a woman, or being gay, or being an ethnicity other than white, so the sore loser/winner should try again if their aim is to offend. Maybe they should be more specific and use their words if they wish to express what it is an opponent is doing/has done that offends them so much.

 

Calling people babies or assholes is the way to go, imo. No one can deny they weren't once a fussy, whiny baby, and everyone is in possession of a stupid asshole.

[burtburt 108]

here's the article that kicked it all off if anyone is interested.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jun/04/i-interviewed-mark-kozelek-he-called-me-a-bitch-on-stage

[Lukas Holmes 2287]

TLDR to all of this.

[justinmh05 1968]

Neil Diamond's a prick.

[mattman92ish 823]

Neil Diamond's a prick.

 

pricks they're coming to America TODAY!

[souprman 10477]

TLDR to all of this.

you've cut me sir.

[BrettMorris 1862]

[AlbinLundholm 4020]

I agree with everything Matt said

[Lukas Holmes 2287]

you've cut me sir.

 

That one I read. Keep them about that length. (also, chew my food for me, I'm very lazy)

[McSmashington 521]

I see a long case closed coming up.

[McSmashington 521]

TLDR to all of this.

Pretty much