Musical Mondays Week 58 The Last Five Years

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

15 hours ago, grudlian. said:

I think the are probably ways to do it. Like have the Schmuel story be well told or whatever. Or maybe show him struggle to write the perfect phrase. But that takes being a great writer (not to slam the author of this) to convey that. 

Maybe LMM can take on a reboot of this show as his next project.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Re: The Schmuel Song

Why is the girl of his dreams in/from Odessa when the entire rest of the 2-year-long song takes place in and mentions Klimovich?

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

I bought a ticket for my local theater's performance tomorrow night.  Excited to see it!

[tomspanks 9039]

Ok, so I'm still annoyed about this timeline gimmick in the movie.  Fine, they don't want to spoon feed us by telling us the year (other than the Ohio Theater signs).  Then why not change the hair styles or something?  Cathy's hair remained exactly the same for the entire 5 years.  

22 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

I laughed out loud when Cathy was like, "Oh it was so long," cause I was literally thinking the same thing.

Anna Kendrick.  She's one of us.

“Most of the Schmuel interjections that Anna made are entirely her ad lib,” Brown said. “We just sort of set her loose on it and said, ‘This is where you're at, go for it.’ So she's an animal, she'll make up anything. She was great!”

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

21 hours ago, Cinco DeNio said:

I bought a ticket for my local theater's performance tomorrow night.  Excited to see it!

So what should I yell at the show tonight?

Candidates include:

1. GEEEOOOOOSTOORRRRM!
2. How did this get made?
3. Jamie, get the fuck over yourself and see what you've got here!

 

[EvRobert 1684]

Just now, Cinco DeNio said:

So what should I yell at the show tonight?

Candidates include:

1. GEEEOOOOOSTOORRRRM!
2. How did this get made?
3. Jamie, get the fuck over yourself and see what you've got here!

 

I vote for GEOSTTTTTTTTTTTTTORM

 

 

(this is why I'm not allowed in the theater anymore)

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

At least in the movie context, does the song Still Hurting seem odd?  Of course Cathy is still hurting if she just got the letter!

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

JFC (sorry).  Just listening to the soundtrack and Still Hurting even acknowledges right up front that Cathy did nothing wrong.  So even the creator of the show admits it's all on Jamie (JRB).  Is this show a freaking love letter to his ex-wife?  Either that or he sees himself as Cathy and his ex-wife is Jamie?

a la the movie

Dead Again

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Ok, I admit it.  I cried.  Seeing Cathy's joy and love and Jamie literally walk out on that?!?  Too much.

[EvRobert 1684]

6 hours ago, Cinco DeNio said:

JFC (sorry).  Just listening to the soundtrack and Still Hurting even acknowledges right up front that Cathy did nothing wrong.  So even the creator of the show admits it's all on Jamie (JRB).  Is this show a freaking love letter to his ex-wife?  Either that or he sees himself as Cathy and his ex-wife is Jamie?

 

  Hide contents

a la the movie

Dead Again

 

or what Aaron Sorkin did with Studio 60 and how it was just him commenting on his realtionship with Kristen Chenoweth

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

So how was the show Cinco?

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

3 hours ago, Cakebug Tranch said:

So how was the show Cinco?

It was excellent!  The stage set was Jamie's apartment.  There were a few times where set pieces were removed to designate a different place but I honestly don't remember where in the show that was.  (It was early in the show but that's it.)  The timelines were still just a little muddled as there were several times both actors were on stage but once they started talking or singing it was clear they weren't talking/singing to the other actor.  (Except for the wedding of course.)

Both singers weren't the strongest but all the emotion and energy came through.  Jamie's still a jerk but less immediately so.  I also have to commend the people who designed/made the boards in the theater lobby.  The backgrounds were either music from the show or copies of Jamie's letter!  There were also a bunch of pictures of both actors (including a wedding picture of the actors in front of a local landmark) and then various pictures of the "couple" as well as Cathy in a variety of roles.  Well done!

The show itself was well done.  Jamie didn't change a whole lot but Cathy's wardrobe completely changed with each song.  There were also nice touches where Jamie's Columbia University sweatshirt was worn or tossed around by both characters.  Also Jamie decorated a small Christmas tree during The Schmuel Song and pulled out a dress from a bag when he got to the girl from Odessa.  Cathy wore that dress a scene or two later so it was nice to see a call back.  I honestly thought "THAT was what Schmuel carried in his head for 41 years?!?" when I first saw it.  When Cathy wore it I understood it was a Christmas present Jamie gave her.  (Yes, I'm gullible and stupid.)

Wen Cathy first comes on she is reading the letter then she starts packing her things and walks off.  Unfortunately we didn't give it the applause it deserved because the music never stopped.  When I go again (and I AM going again, at least once more!), I know to start clapping as she walks off.  There's no break between Still Hurting and Shiksa Goddess.  (Also, I realize I misunderstood Still Hurting.  It's not later in time like I thought.  It makes sense if she's just reading or just read the letter.  Now I take it to mean that she never got comforted and even the letter didn't help anything.  (Not to mention this is at least the second Dear Jane letter she's gotten.)

I really liked the time device.  Since it was Jamie's apartment the wall and windows were projected on a screen.  When Jamie was on stage the clock wound backwards to a certain hour.  So his first song went to 1 or 1:30, the next to 2:00 and so on.  Cathy's started at midnight (or maybe 11) and worked back.  When Cathy came on the clock ran forward to her next time.  The clock was at 6:00 for the proposal and wedding. I loved that. They didn't peg it to any specific year.  (At least on stage.  I haven't read the program yet.  I ran late to get there.)

There was a live orchestra but I honestly thought they were using a provided soundtrack.  During the curtain calls the actors motioned and the musicians came out.  They did a wonderful job!

I cried at the end, as I said before.  Cathy was so rapturous in love and Jamie was so ready to end things.  Cathy came on first and did her song.  Jamie came on then and did his.  He started packing his things while they did the duet and then they looked "at" each other for the last goodbye.  I couldn't hold it in.  I wasn't noisy but I sure was sobbing.

I got to meet both actors afterward and thank then congratulate them.  Cathy's IRL mom was there as well so I talked to her for a minute.  I considered asking for a picture but decided not to.  I will next time.  Thought it was gauche but what the hell, why not?

I can't thank @Cakebug Tranch enough for letting me borrow the soundtrack so I could hear the show before I went last night.  I went to add it to Amazon and it's part of the Prime subscription if you have one.  I still am going to buy it but that was a nice touch when I had trouble getting the files onto one of my devices.

I will upload my pictures and post them shortly.  But first, let me take a selfie.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

The marquee (without me)

The sign boards (Notice one of the wedding pictures in the bottom right of the first picture.  That is taken in front of the Conservatory at Rockwood Mansion. The mansion grounds are often used for wedding pictures and the Conservatory looks good as a background with its green and yellowish color scheme.)

The set

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

Great stuff Cinco! Sounds like it was a great addition to the process, and so happy that you got a different perspective on this show. The film really doesn't do it much justice.  

I really like the dramaturgical choices for the lobby and the continuity of the dress from Schmuel to the audition. That's nice.

[EvRobert 1684]

This just reinforces my desire to direct this show LOL thanks for sharing that looks great

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

@Cakebug Tranch & @EvRobert , I went and saw it again yesterday.  Took a few more pictures of the lobby board.  I'm starting with my favorite image and then just doing a hodge-podge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cameron H. 23786]

I just finished. And I just wanted to say: I’m team SaraK  

Yeah, Jamie shouldn’t have cheated, and yes, Cathy didn’t do anything wrong, but, much like La La Land, I didn’t really feel like this was a “he’s wrong/she’s right” type of love story. It’s a story about starcrossed lovers. For me, it’s about how love and passion are great, but ultimately, outside influencers can make or break a relationship. 

You see, I disagree with the idea that Cathy and Jamie weren’t equal. Hell, Cathy might have been even more talented than Jamie. But that doesn’t matter. It’s not about talent; it’s about success. Jamie literally has success thrust upon him. He didn’t even submit the the manuscript that gets him published! He even says (if he’s being honest, which I have no reason to doubt) it was a weak, second draft. He never experiences any kind of set back, so from his perspective, he doesn’t recognize that his success has almost nothing to do with effort. In regard to their respective success and failure, he’s looking at it from an unrealistic point of view. In passing, he says it’s happening “too fast,” but really, he doesn’t have any experience to really recognize that what’s happening to him is essentially a miracle. Basically, his guide to success is “If you want something, you just do it once and you get it. And if it doesn’t happen for you, then must not have really wanted it.” This is why he comes off so tone deaf with Cathy. It’s also how he treats his entire relationship with Cathy.  (“We want this thing, then all we have to do is love each other and everything will work out and it will be awesome.”)

Cathy sees things from a more pragmatic point of view. She’s very shrewd. She knows what she wants, she’s talented, she works hard, but she also recognizes that there are other things in play - things that have nothing to do with talent. So after a hard day’s work at a shitty job, it’s difficult for her to sit and listen to her uber-successful husband tell her her problem is that she’s not trying hard enough. (“I know you’re brilliant and talented. So am I. Therefore, if I’m super successful and you’re not, the problem has to be with you. Here. Let me give you advice...”) Is it mansplainy? Eh....maybe. Although, I feel like it’s coming from genuinely loving place. If anything,  I’d say it’s more success-splaining. He really isn’t in a position to be giving anyone advice as he is incapable of seeing that everything he’s achieved is based almost entirely on a stroke of luck. 

And, again, contrasting with Jamie, what’s happening to Cathy and her career is how she views their relationship. For her, relationships are work. And from her perspective, he’s not pulling his weight. She’s also discovering that settling for the shadow of a dream (I.e Ohio instead of Broadway) can be almost worse than not achieving it at all. And, of course, this is reflected in their marriage as well.

And, yes, it’s easy to say “she doesn’t need to go to parties that make her feel bad,” and that’s true, but if it were me, I would hope my wife would want to be with me. If people were throwing parties in your honor, wouldn’t you want your husband/wife/girlfriend/boyfriend with you? I mean, if they really don’t want to go, and you have to go, then whatever. But no matter how successful a person gets, they’re always going to want share their achievements with the people they love the most. I don’t think that’s crazy. Yes, she has a valid reason for not wanting to go, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t disappointing or hurtful. I mean, I don’t particularly like going to parties either, but if people were throwing a party for my wife, one party or one hundred, it wouldn’t matter, I would 100% be there. The problem for Cathy and Jamie is that at that point in the movie, their ability to effectively communicate has fully metastasized.

So, no, I’m not going to excuse his cheating, and yes, he’s self-centered, but personally, I think it is a little more complicated then just “he’s a dick.”

[Cameron H. 23786]

Another thing I really liked was how for both of them it came down to “you’re not supporting me.”

From his perspective, he’s thinking “I’ve got obligations, and you hate Ohio and these people anyway, so what’s the big deal if I miss this performance?” And for her it’s, “You’ve already achieved your dream, and it’s the same twenty people you don’t really like anyway, so what’s the big deal if you miss this one party?” It’s not like either of them are wrong, but they’re not right either.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

7 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

I just finished. And I just wanted to say: I’m team SaraK  

Yeah, Jamie shouldn’t have cheated, and yes, Cathy didn’t do anything wrong, but, much like La La Land, I didn’t really feel like this was a “he’s wrong/she’s right” type of love story.

I'm inexplicably furious. You're unfriended. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

8 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

I just finished. And I just wanted to say: I’m team SaraK  

Yeah, Jamie shouldn’t have cheated, and yes, Cathy didn’t do anything wrong, but, much like La La Land, I didn’t really feel like this was a “he’s wrong/she’s right” type of love story. It’s a story about starcrossed lovers. For me, it’s about how love and passion are great, but ultimately, outside influencers can ultimately make or break a relationship. 

You see, I disagree with the idea that Cathy and Jamie weren’t equal. ick.”

j/k

I'm team CaleBug but am seeing the show again on Friday (if nothing intrudes) and will watch it with Cameron's eyes.  His reasoned arguments (and $50) could sway me.  I'll be watching the mailbox for that check.

[SaraK 1980]

9 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

I just finished. And I just wanted to say: I’m team SaraK  

 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

9 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

I just finished. And I just wanted to say: I’m team SaraK  

Yeah, Jamie shouldn’t have cheated, and yes, Cathy didn’t do anything wrong, but, much like La La Land, I didn’t really feel like this was a “he’s wrong/she’s right” type of love story. It’s a story about starcrossed lovers. For me, it’s about how love and passion are great, but ultimately, outside influencers can make or break a relationship. 

You see, I disagree with the idea that Cathy and Jamie weren’t equal. Hell, Cathy might have been even more talented than Jamie. But that doesn’t matter. It’s not about talent; it’s about success. Jamie literally has success thrust upon him. He didn’t even submit the the manuscript that gets him published! He even says (if he’s being honest, which I have no reason to doubt) it was a weak, second draft. He never experiences any kind of set back, so from his perspective, he doesn’t recognize that his success has almost nothing to do with effort. In regard to their respective success and failure, he’s looking at it from an unrealistic point of view. In passing, he says it’s happening “too fast,” but really, he doesn’t have any experience to really recognize that what’s happening to him is essentially a miracle. Basically, his guide to success is “If you want something, you just do it once and you get it. And if it doesn’t happen for you, then must not have really wanted it.” This is why he comes off so tone deaf with Cathy. It’s also how he treats his entire relationship with Cathy.  (“We want this thing, then all we have to do is love each other and everything will work out and it will be awesome.”)

Cathy sees things from a more pragmatic point of view. She’s very shrewd. She knows what she wants, she’s talented, she works hard, but she also recognizes that there are other things in play - things that have nothing to do with talent. So after a hard day’s work at a shitty job, it’s difficult for her to sit and listen to her uber-successful husband tell her her problem is that she’s not trying hard enough. (“I know you’re brilliant and talented. So am I. Therefore, if I’m super successful and you’re not, the problem has to be with you. Here. Let me give you advice...”) Is it mansplainy? Eh....maybe. Although, I feel like it’s coming from genuinely loving place. If anything,  I’d say it’s more success-splaining. He really isn’t in a position to be giving anyone advice as he is incapable of seeing that everything he’s achieved is based almost entirely on a stroke of luck. 

And, again, contrasting with Jamie, what’s happening to Cathy and her career is how she views their relationship. For her, relationships are work. And from her perspective, he’s not pulling his weight. She’s also discovering that settling for the shadow of a dream (I.e Ohio instead of Broadway) can be almost worse than not achieving it at all. And, of course, this is reflected in their marriage as well.

And, yes, it’s easy to say “she doesn’t need to go to parties that make her feel bad,” and that’s true, but if it were me, I would hope my wife would want to be with me. If people were throwing parties in your honor, wouldn’t you want your husband/wife/girlfriend/boyfriend with you? I mean, if they really don’t want to go, and you have to go, then whatever. But no matter how successful a person gets, they’re always going to want share their achievements with the people they love the most. I don’t think that’s crazy. Yes, she has a valid reason for not wanting to go, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t disappointing or hurtful. I mean, I don’t particularly like going to parties either, but if people were throwing a party for my wife, one party or one hundred, it wouldn’t matter, I would 100% be there. The problem for Cathy and Jamie is that at that point in the movie, their ability to effectively communicate has fully metastasized.

So, no, I’m not going to excuse his cheating, and yes, he’s self-centered, but personally, I think it is a little more complicated then just “he’s a dick.”

I'm not sure I can break this up like we used to and comment on each thing so I will try to make this as coherent as possible lol!

I don't think anyone ever really said they weren't equal though. If my memory serves me correctly I think it's that these characters didn't see themselves as equal in any sense except when they first met. I think Cathy consistently thought she was more talented than Jaime (which I would actually agree based on the very limited knowledge we have of his writing skills) and Jaime thought he was better than Cathy because he had gotten the success.

I think most of us question the way this movie presents this relationship because it is very clear that they make the dissolving of their love a "two-way street" but like you said, Cathy is willing to work for them. She's willing to move forward and grow and be okay, but Jaime isn't. He has absolutely no desire to put in any work seemingly from the moment they tie the knot almost. I think there was a honeymoon period obviously because the first song about Ohio is post wedding we find out, but that is also from Cathy's point of view and she seems rather blindsided by his betrayal and him leaving. In that sense this was definitely not a two way street. Sure every story has two sides but from what this movie presents us one of those sides is definitely easier to side with than the other.

There was a lot of comparisons to La La Land for me, but really I could actually see La La Land as a better example of the two sides to every story than this one.

Also by the time we see Cathy pleading to not go to this party, she seriously had already been to one hundred, and I understand your point which is why originally I was like I mean that's not really that big of a deal, but if you went to one hundred parties in your wife's honor and the whole time she ignored you while you stood at the bar and drank yourself silly that would probably eat at you until you begged to just stay home. If I truly thought it was important that my wife be there, and that she supported me, then yeah I would actually want her by my side instead of getting drunk as fuck in a corner alone. Actually this part of the movie is maybe the only part where there are two sides. Also, Jaime totally went about talking to her about all this the wrong way lol. I can't remember what he had said but it was soooo shitty that I literally was like aaand you killed it thanks Jaime she's definitely not going now. If he had just like taken a breath and actually listened to her and been like okay I hear you and I promise I won't ignore you, then maybe she would've been okay to go for him. That's really all you need sometimes is to be heard, and by that point Jaime was well beyond ever actually hearing Cathy.

I just don't see what you're seeing ultimately. He was great literally until the moment they got married. The whole song about resisting temptation literally is all the proof that I need that it's not the success that changed him, he would've been this way regardless. It's really not that complicated. He's a fucking dick.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

20 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I'm not sure I can break this up like we used to and comment on each thing so I will try to make this as coherent as possible lol!

I don't think anyone ever really said they weren't equal though. If my memory serves me correctly I think it's that these characters didn't see themselves as equal in any sense except when they first met. I think Cathy consistently thought she was more talented than Jaime (which I would actually agree based on the very limited knowledge we have of his writing skills) and Jaime thought he was better than Cathy because he had gotten the success.

I think most of us question the way this movie presents this relationship because it is very clear that they make the dissolving of their love a "two-way street" but like you said, Cathy is willing to work for them. She's willing to move forward and grow and be okay, but Jaime isn't. He has absolutely no desire to put in any work seemingly from the moment they tie the knot almost. I think there was a honeymoon period obviously because the first song about Ohio is post wedding we find out, but that is also from Cathy's point of view and she seems rather blindsided by his betrayal and him leaving. In that sense this was definitely not a two way street. Sure every story has two sides but from what this movie presents us one of those sides is definitely easier to side with than the other.

There was a lot of comparisons to La La Land for me, but really I could actually see La La Land as a better example of the two sides to every story than this one.

Also by the time we see Cathy pleading to not go to this party, she seriously had already been to one hundred, and I understand your point which is why originally I was like I mean that's not really that big of a deal, but if you went to one hundred parties in your wife's honor and the whole time she ignored you while you stood at the bar and drank yourself silly that would probably eat at you until you begged to just stay home. If I truly thought it was important that my wife be there, and that she supported me, then yeah I would actually want her by my side instead of getting drunk as fuck in a corner alone. Actually this part of the movie is maybe the only part where there are two sides. Also, Jaime totally went about talking to her about all this the wrong way lol. I can't remember what he had said but it was soooo shitty that I literally was like aaand you killed it thanks Jaime she's definitely not going now. If he had just like taken a breath and actually listened to her and been like okay I hear you and I promise I won't ignore you, then maybe she would've been okay to go for him. That's really all you need sometimes is to be heard, and by that point Jaime was well beyond ever actually hearing Cathy.

I just don't see what you're seeing ultimately. He was great literally until the moment they got married. The whole song about resisting temptation literally is all the proof that I need that it's not the success that changed him, he would've been this way regardless. It's really not that complicated. He's a fucking dick.

Not sure if these are the sections @taylorannephoto refers to but they are parts of "If I Didn't Believe in You" that stick out to me.

Quote

Is it just that you're disappointed
To be touring again for the summer
Did you think this would all be much easier
Than it's turned out to be?

 

Quote

If I didn't think you could do
Anything you ever wanted to
If I wasn't certain that you'd come through somehow
The fact of the matter is, Cathy
I wouldn't be standing here now

 

Quote

It never took much convincing
To make me believe in you

For me, the kicker:

Quote

Don't we get to relax
Without some new tsuris
To push me yet further from you?
If I'm cheering on your side, Cathy
Why can't you support mine?
Why do I have to feel
I committed some felony
Doing what I always swore I would do?

The bolded line is exactly what Cathy did as well.  Earlier, in "Moving Too Fast" he says something like "Even if I can't follow through what else could I do?" I assume that means he feels he's destined to be a writer even if he has no more success.  Yet Cathy feels similarly destined to be an actress no matter what and he can't/won't see it.

And then the moment where he decides to end the relationship (IMO):
 

Quote

But you know what I think?
I think you'll be fine!
Just hang on and you'll see –
But don't make me wait 'til you do
To be happy with you –
Will you listen to me?
No one can give you courage
No one can thicken your skin
I will not fail so you can be comfortable, Cathy
I will not lose because you can't win

 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

It was this one

Quote

No one can give you courage
No one can thicken your skin
I will not fail so you can be comfortable, Cathy
I will not lose because you can't win

He was assuming what her issues were in that moment. Now, we know she was feeling like she had to be that doting wife that was just comfortable with doing nothing while the man took care of her (her words), but in this specific fight she was literally telling him what her problems were, and it was that he took her to these parties and then she had to just be the wife alone at the bar getting plastered. It's not fair to bring up something like this and then claim she actually wishes he would fail because that would make her feel better. That's fucked up and that's truly where she decided she wasn't going to that fucking party.

I even remember grudlian, Cinco, and I noticing that she was slinging some mud during that fight too but for some reason I think we all agreed that those lines right there was when Jaime lost that fight.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

@taylorannephoto's comments reminded me of one other callback in the show I saw.  The dress she wears in "I'm a Part of That" is the one he fights to get her to wear in this song.  To me that says she's singing "IaPoT" just after coming back from that party.  Obviously she could have worn that dress another time or it was her standard fancy party dress, etc.