The Graduate

[Cameron H. 23786]

Amy & Paul scuba-dive into 1967’s generation-gap dramedy The Graduate! They look for thematic connections in early Nichols & May sketches, wonder how such a small scale film became an enormous hit, and ask whether Mrs. Robinson is a fantasy or a fully-formed character. Plus: Katharine Ross (Elaine) joins Amy to praise Mike Nichols’ direction.

Which cast member of Saving Private Ryan would be a good replacement for Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate? Call the Unspooled voicemail line at 747-666-5824 with your answer! Follow us on Twitter @Unspooled, get more info at unspooledpod.com, and don’t forget to rate, review & subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts. Photo credit: Kim Troxall

This episode is brought to you by Mubi.com (www.mubi.com/unspooled), Fracture (www.fractureme.com/UNSPOOLED), and Stitch Fix (www.stitchfix.com/UNSPOOLED).

[grudlian. 4725]

One thing that they don't mention that I think could explain Benjamin quite a bit is that Benjamin went to college at 16. I thought maybe he only got an associate's degree since he graduated at 20 but they explicitly state he was in school for 4 years. I think being socially awkward, going to a men's only college, being much younger than everyone could definitely be a reason why he is the way he is.

I think it's kind of weird that Paul and Amy kind of gloss over that Mrs. Robinson is basically a sexual predator in this. They mention Benjamin being prey but they also talk about how sexy and confidant she is repeatedly. I get Benjamin it's old enough to make his own decisions but she's still twice his age and he's very clearly saying no to her at every step of the way. I was really grossed out by it.

I don't know if that completely colored my opinion of the movie as a whole. I can appreciate this movie on technical levels. It's well written and acted. The cinematography is great. But this didn't do anything for me.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

 

 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

37 minutes ago, grudlian. said:

I think it's kind of weird that Paul and Amy kind of gloss over that Mrs. Robinson is basically a sexual predator in this. They mention Benjamin being prey but they also talk about how sexy and confidant she is repeatedly. I get Benjamin it's old enough to make his own decisions but she's still twice his age and he's very clearly saying no to her at every step of the way. I was really grossed out by it.

I don't know if that completely colored my opinion of the movie as a whole. I can appreciate this movie on technical levels. It's well written and acted. The cinematography is great. But this didn't do anything for me.

I've got the episode in my queue but it hasn't hit yet, but I'm really disappointed to hear this because this is exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen. Mrs. Robinson absolutely takes advantage of him and we have to recognize every kind of predator no matter what in order for all victims to be taken seriously. It's been quite some time since I've first seen this movie, and in my memory Benjamin does consent to Mrs. Robinson, but as Grudlian says - he says no to her every step of the way before that. An eventual yes is not what someone should be striving for and looking onto this film with modern eyes does completely make it a gross movie (even taking out the fact that it stars Dustin Hoffman). It's one of those things where at 20 Benjamin thinks nothing of his encounter with Mrs. Robinson and then at 40 he has a mental breakdown over repressed trauma over the situation.

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

I'm not quite so bothered with Mrs. Robinson, I get her anger and I think re: their relationship -- I can see two people in their situations falling into like that. I think there's enough of her story to get her, though like Amy said, still not answer the "why Ben" question. But yea, generally all the negging and stalkery persistence (I mean there's scenes when Elaine literally gets up and RUNS away from Ben) haven't aged well and are a bit skeevy and I had a tough time looking past them.

I also was thinking of this in relation to Taxi Driver, but I'm not sure quite how to elucidate those thoughts yet. Maybe I'll give it another watch this weekend

[taylor anne photo 11311]

"An eventual yes is not what someone should be striving for"

I have to quote myself real quick, because this is exactly what Benjamin does to Elaine too. He is the prey that eventually becomes the predator and maybe this whole thing is really a commentary on how people that go through traumatic events themselves think of that as normal and reproduce the scenario with someone else.

[grudlian. 4725]

17 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

"An eventual yes is not what someone should be striving for"

I have to quote myself real quick, because this is exactly what Benjamin does to Elaine too. He is the prey that eventually becomes the predator and maybe this whole thing is really a commentary on how people that go through traumatic events themselves think of that as normal and reproduce the scenario with someone else.

I think this is an interesting take I that thought of. I don't think the movie intends it but the most beneficial reading.

I should say I don't have an issue with sexual assault in a movie (depending on how it's handled and I think it's handled fine here). I just think it's gross and disappointing that anyone's going "why him? what's so great about Benjamin" with this movie when, in many other movies, we wouldn't attempt to justify a sexual predator's actions with how sad they are with their lot in life.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

1 minute ago, grudlian. said:

I think this is an interesting take I that thought of. I don't think the movie intends it but the most beneficial reading.

I should say I don't have an issue with sexual assault in a movie (depending on how it's handled and I think it's handled fine here). I just think it's gross and disappointing that anyone's going "why him? what's so great about Benjamin" with this movie when, in many other movies, we wouldn't attempt to justify a sexual predator's actions with how sad they are with their lot in life.

I completely agree, and my issues are just the lack of acknowledging the fact that Mrs. Robinson is definitely a predator in this situation. Doesn't mean this movie shouldn't be made, but we gotta talk about it.

Also yeah there's no way this movie intended that take to be actually taken lol.

[Cameron H. 23786]

11 minutes ago, grudlian. said:

I think this is an interesting take I that thought of. I don't think the movie intends it but the most beneficial reading.

I should say I don't have an issue with sexual assault in a movie (depending on how it's handled and I think it's handled fine here). I just think it's gross and disappointing that anyone's going "why him? what's so great about Benjamin" with this movie when, in many other movies, we wouldn't attempt to justify a sexual predator's actions with how sad they are with their lot in life.

Thank you! I was about to ask for the context of “Why him?” I read that and I was thinking, “So only certain people get sexually assaulted?”

I think the movie is very relevant from a #metoo perspective. A person of power takes advantage of someone and then spreads lies to discredit their accuser. His gender really doesn’t/shouldn’t matter.

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

Well as the person who asked 'why Ben?' (along with Amy), it's not because 'only certain people get assaulted' that led me to ask that. I wrote on Letterboxd how I didn't particularly love the film, but I will defend the initial relationship with Mrs. Robinson. I think they're two depressed people, and I can get that they would fall into a connectionless sexual relationship, so I guess I've answered my own question. But it was a bit of a comment on how hollow he is, how bland, rude, mechanical, dry. The character gives us so very little. Anyway, he's using her too! I don't think it's all one direction to be honest. So maybe I'm awful, but I actually see it as a relationship and somewhat less predatory than you guys; that's why I was like 'why choose Ben?'

But then on the other hand, we can't not talk about Ben's predatory nature towards Elaine -- a much more problematic situation, though I guess maybe it is all just a vicious cycle. But I agree with Taylor that isn't the film's point either, so I dunno.  The whole movie feels like a mess to me because of all this.

[Cameron H. 23786]

34 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

But it was a bit of a comment on how hollow he is, how bland, rude, mechanical, dry

But the way that comes across to me is: “But he’s so boring, why not sexually assault someone more exciting, nice, dynamic, and...wet?” I’m not even sure if we’re supposed to “get” why Mrs. R is into him. To try and justify the type a person a victim should be, or should be more like, feels strangely exploitive. 

I definitely see it as a predatory situation though. She sees a vulnerable person and takes advantage of that. She literally locks herself in a room with him, naked, after he’s told her -repeatedly- he’s not interested. I mean, do we really have to ask what that looks like with a gender reversal? And just because he goes back to her, doesn’t justify her actions. If anything, it just confirms that she has successfully manipulated a naive and clearly vulnerable person. Even after the fact, once he has the courage to say that what they are doing is wrong and gross, she passive-aggressively twists his words as if they were an attack on her personally. So much so that he actually ends up staying and apologizing to HER! That’s classic abuser/victim shit right there. And that all started because he had the nerve to try and talk to her and make it a real relationship.

And, no, I don’t agree with the Elaine stuff either, but I also don’t view the movie as a romance. And I don’t believe the movie is making that case as it is constantly calling him out for doing the wrong thing. No one is in the right here, and it’s definitely not a happy ending.

[grudlian. 4725]

16 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

Well as the person who asked 'why Ben?' (along with Amy), it's not because 'only certain people get assaulted' that led me to ask that. I wrote on Letterboxd how I didn't particularly love the film, but I will defend the initial relationship with Mrs. Robinson. I think they're two depressed people, and I can get that they would fall into a connectionless sexual relationship, so I guess I've answered my own question. But it was a bit of a comment on how hollow he is, how bland, rude, mechanical, dry. The character gives us so very little. Anyway, he's using her too! I don't think it's all one direction to be honest. So maybe I'm awful, but I actually see it as a relationship and somewhat less predatory than you guys; that's why I was like 'why choose Ben?'

But then on the other hand, we can't not talk about Ben's predatory nature towards Elaine -- a much more problematic situation, though I guess maybe it is all just a vicious cycle. But I agree with Taylor that isn't the film's point either, so I dunno.  The whole movie feels like a mess to me because of all this.

I don't have an inherent problem with "why him" being asked. I agree with you about them having shared emotions and being kind of rudderless. That's a perfectly fine reason to make a film about two broken people finding each other. But their commonalities would only be apparent to either of them after the relationship started. They definitely didn't know that before they start having sex.

I think the "why Benjamin?" is answered the same way most sexual assaults can be answered:  they thought they could. Mrs. Robinson might have wanted a dozen better looking guys. She knew she could get Benjamin whereas she might think Benjamin's more desirable peers were more likely to rebuff her advances.

Again, I don't have an issue with a movie addressing any of these things. I have an issue with why didn't Amy and Paul discuss the sexual assault in this at any length. And it seems like no criticism I've ever seen of this movie ever brings it up. And I know Paul knows better because stuff he's said in HDTGM episodes. I'm sure Amy knows better (and I think that's part of the stuff she's hinted at by having problems with the movie) but I'm only familiar with her work on Unspooled. So, it's disappointing.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

39 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

But the way that comes across to me is: “But he’s so boring, why not sexually assault someone more exciting, nice, dynamic, and...wet.” I’m not even sure if we’re supposed to “get” why Mrs. R is into him. I definitely see it as a predatory situation though. She sees a vulnerable person and takes advantage of that. She literally locks herself in a room with him, naked, after he’s told her he’s not interested. I mean, do we really have to ask what that looks like with a gender reversal? And just because he goes back to her, doesn’t justify her actions. If anything, it just confirms that she has successfully manipulated a naive and clearly vulnerable person. Even after the fact, once he has the courage to say this is wrong and gross she passive-aggressively twists his words as an attack on her so that HE ends up staying and apologizing to her. That’s classic abuser/victim shit right there. And that all started because he wanted to talk to her and make it a real relationship.

And, no, I don’t agree with the Elaine stuff either, but I also don’t view the movie as a romance either. And I don’t believe the movie is making that case as it is constantly calling him out for doing the wrong thing. No one is in the right here, and it’s definitely not a happy ending.

Another thing I would add in here is that I think Paul is right in saying the movie is a comedy. Not a super-uproarious farce like Airplane! or something, but it is consistently a dryly humorous satire of the social mores of its time and the generation gap in particular. To ask for a "believable" romance with an attractive leading man in this context is kind of missing the point, IMO. Of course Benjamin and Mrs. Robinson are bad for each other and of course it doesn't make sense! The filmmakers know it too. They might not have had the same language about sexual predators that we do now, but I think they definitely see how these characters use sex and romance with other people as a salve for their own wounded egos. That's how the whole plot unravels: Mrs. Robinson uses Benjamin for her own purposes, then after Ben gets sick of it, he turns around and uses Elaine for his, and then when Elaine gets tired of being used for marriage, she runs back into Ben's arms even though she barely knows him. The final shot on the bus demonstrates how all of these people are just moving through their lives, uncertain about what they do or what's to come. Just having rebelled from the older people's ways doesn't mean you actually have a plan.

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

40 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

But the way that comes across to me is: “But he’s so boring, why not sexually assault someone more exciting, nice, dynamic, and...wet?” I’m not even sure if we’re supposed to “get” why Mrs. R is into him. To try and justify the type a person a victim should be, or should be more like, feels strangely exploitive. 

I definitely see it as a predatory situation though.

Yea, it's not not there for me, but to what level I'm not sure - maybe that's my fault/bias, maybe it's the movie's. 

42 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

it is constantly calling him out for doing the wrong thing.

How so? I don't get that at all, to be honest. He's not called out for anything. Is it solely the ending being ambiguous? 

But we seem to have flipped places from Letterboxd. How do you like the movie so much if it's all based around unaddressed sexual predation?  What comment is it making? If it's simply "embrace the moments" -- does sexual predation count?  What makes this story good? 

As I start to agree with you guys that it's higher-level predatory than I initially took it, I'm thinking of dropping my rating down even more...

[Cameron H. 23786]

4 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

The final shot on the bus demonstrates how all of these people are just moving through their lives,

I agree with everything you said, but to this point specifically, I liked how the movie opens with him on the airport people mover and ends with a long shot of him running to the church. Essentially, it shows the development of a directionless character being shuffled along to a character with purpose and making (literal) strides to achieve his goals. That doesn’t mean that what he’s doing is right, or that if he achieves his goal it will be lasting, just that through the course of the movie he gains focus. 

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

4 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

As I start to agree with you guys that it's higher-level predatory than I initially took it, I'm thinking of dropping my rating down even more...

I think the movie is aware of that, though. Given that it's the 60's, they probably wouldn't have described it as "sexual predator," but I think the filmmakers do see that the characters are using one another, that none of it is a real two-sided romance. The final shot signifies that, but so do a lot of other visual cues: Benjamin being on the treadmill at the beginning, the way the "party" for Ben's graduation is just people passing him along with no real interest in him, the scuba scene where you can see people's mouths moving but not hear what they say, etc. The whole thing is people talking past each other and not connecting.

The musical cues too! "Hello darkness, my old friend." "The sound of silence." Not an accident that this is the opening and closing tune.

[Cameron H. 23786]

20 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

How so? I don't get that at all, to be honest. He's not called out for anything. Is it solely the ending being ambiguous? 

But we seem to have flipped places from Letterboxd. How do you like the movie so much if it's all based around unaddressed sexual predation?  What comment is it making? If it's simply "embrace the moments" -- does sexual predation count?  What makes this story good? 

 

I feel like your twisting my words around here. I’m definitely not suggesting you should embrace moments of sexual predation - and I think you know that. That’s ludicrous.

He’s not necessarily literally called out by the characters, but the movie makes it clear that what he’s doing isn’t right. When he tells his parents that he’s going to marry Elaine, they’re excited...until he tells them he hasn’t even asked her. The movie also doesn’t show her welcoming him to Berkeley with open arms and the landlord straight up tells him “you’re weird and I don’t like you.” If the movie thinks he’s “right” then it wouldn’t keep calling attention to the fact that the other characters view his actions as strange.

[Cameron H. 23786]

1 hour ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

the scuba scene

The scuba scene is another good example of Ben being coerced into a situation that he repeatedly says he has no interest in.

I agree that the movie is absolutely aware of what it’s doing and what it’s trying to say.

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

 

10 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I feel like your twisting my words around here. I’m definitely not suggesting you should embrace moments of sexual predation - and I think you know that. That’s ludicrous.

Sorry, no not trying to twist. I just don't know what's here otherwise besides these two relationships, which have both been branded as predatory. What else is in this besides that?

I'm not talking about being literally called out. I don't think the film does it either. I don't see how the film is like "Mrs. Robinson = horrible." Ben says he's going to marry Elaine out of nowhere, and shortly thereafter he wins her over. She doesn't welcome him to Berkeley, literally runs away from him numerous times, and in the end she still chooses him. Doesn't she say she loves him at some point? The destructive side of these choices is being written in by viewers, and I'm not sure it's really there.

7 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

T

I agree that the movie is absolutely aware of what it’s doing and what it’s trying to say.

I guess this is my ultimate question that I'm missing.  What is it saying? 

[Cameron H. 23786]

21 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

If it's simply "embrace the moments" -- does sexual predation count?  What makes this story good? 

 

Also, “Embrace the moments” isn’t exactly what I said. You had argued that because the movie dealt with marriage it wasn’t “aromantic,” and I replied:

“Regarding marriage: As presented in the movie, I would say marriage is pretty aromantic. The Robinson’s marriage is a good example. Marriage is presented, not as an expression of love, but as an expectation and a responsibility. Elaine isn’t getting married to “the make out king” because she loves him, but because he’s pre-med and it’s a “good match.” She isn’t really in love with Ben either. She’s interested in him because he’s forbidden and it’s her taking control. And that’s where we leave them. With this kind of, “That was cool. Very fairy tale.  But, um, I’m not sure, but I think we may have just fucked up.” It’s clear that when the movie ends that the drama is far from over. The bus won’t take them that far and there will still be repercussions. Like, she’ll have to get her marriage annulled. This could potentially go on for years - going back and forth. So, I guess you could say the movie is telling us to embrace those rare moments of control as they are fleeting.”

[Cameron H. 23786]

6 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

I guess this is my ultimate question that I'm missing.  What is it saying? 

I would say that the movie is about how conforming to societal pressure and expectations often leads to unhappiness, but just because you rebel against conformity, doesn’t guarantee happiness either.

We see this in the pressure Ben is under regarding school, career, and wife. Mrs. Robinson represents the decay of happiness by succumbing to this pressure (she got married because she got pregnant) and what Ben’s future might hold if he doesn’t take control. 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

6 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

Sorry, no not trying to twist. I just don't know what's here otherwise besides these two relationships, which have both been branded as predatory. What else is in this besides that?

I'm not talking about being literally called out. I don't think the film does it either. I don't see how the film is like "Mrs. Robinson = horrible." Ben says he's going to marry Elaine out of nowhere, and shortly thereafter he wins her over. She doesn't welcome him to Berkeley, literally runs away from him numerous times, and in the end she still chooses him. Doesn't she say she loves him at some point? The destructive side of these choices is being written in by viewers, and I'm not sure it's really there.

I guess this is my ultimate question that I'm missing.  What is it saying? 

I don't believe that she truly chooses him at the end, nor is it quite as ambiguous as we all think. In my take of the movie - Elaine is just choosing to not get married in that moment, not necessarily Ben. He just happens to be the person that is there giving her a vision of outside of that church and she takes it in that moment, but then you see them going from smiling and happy in that bus to completely sullen and unable to look at each other. Neither one of them want to actually end up with the other and that relationship knows it's going to be doomed if they continue on.

[Cameron H. 23786]

4 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

Elaine is just choosing to not get married in that moment, not necessarily Ben.

Ding ding ding! 100%!!!

She’s being forced BY HER PARENTS to marry the “make out king” to keep her away from Ben. The movie flat out states this. She doesn’t love Ben at all. She runs away with Ben to reassert control over her own life.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

Just now, Cameron H. said:

Ding ding ding! 100%!!!

She’s being forced BY HER PARENTS to marry the “make out king” to keep her away from Ben. She doesn’t love Ben at all. She runs away from Ben to reassert control over her life.

I find it so funny that never once does anyone ever ask Elaine what she wants. Her parents force her into this relationship to keep her away from Ben as if Ben gets final say on ending up with Elaine in the first place. If I were her parents I would've been like, "Hey this dude is expressing interest in marrying you, are you cool with that? No? Oh okay then carry on with your life and we'll call the police if he ends up stalking you all the way to your college campus."

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

7 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Ding ding ding! 100%!!!

She’s being forced BY HER PARENTS to marry the “make out king” to keep her away from Ben. The movie flat out states this. She doesn’t love Ben at all. She runs away with Ben to reassert control over her own life.

The Simpsons parody of this scene is pretty spot-on as to its actual message.