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Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs

Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs  

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  1. 1. Does Snow White belong on the AFI list?

    • Heigh-Ho! 💎
      10
    • Heigh-NO! 🍎
      5

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  • Poll closed on 04/12/19 at 07:00 AM

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15 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Like Cinderella..?

I have no problem with her cooking and cleaning in return for shelter. I also think it takes skill to be able to do either of those things well. Honestly, I feel like she was just being a good houseguest. 

It’s fine if you like Cinderella, but I think we’re really splitting hairs here. I think it comes down to a matter of taste. Any criticism you can level at Snow White (boring, no agency, poorly defined) I could level right back at Cinderella. So I’m going to let it go.

Lol fine sure the movie does a disadvantage to Cinderella as well, but I guess my point is that at least in her movie they set up a lot more for me to believe why she has these traits better than Snow White does. I really believe that the step mother in Cinderella pushed her to the point where that's all she can do, because for me I see little parts of other things within her that immediately get stomped down due to abuse. But in Snow White the movie starts at a point where we don't actually see any of the parental abuse that Snow White goes through before she's immediately about to get murdered for her beauty, and I would've liked to have seen her interaction with her step mother more in order to believe the rest of her character later in the story when she meets the dwarfs. But also, you're the one who mentioned she utilized the skills she possessed hence why I mentioned what they just were, so even to your argument we can say that Cinderella also utilized her skills, but really because she was being forced to because she was being abused every day of her life.

And you're right, at this point it really just comes down to our tastes.

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Weird coincidence: I just finished watching The Tooth Fairy with my son this morning.

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1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

I just have such a problem with that concept. Like I get it in terms of Stars Wars and Fellowship of the Ring because the trilogy itself is the complete story and therefore the first of each trilogy made the list because then it does grab you into watching all three movies (and then by virtue see the films that actually DO deserve to make the list... i.e. Empire Strikes Back and Return of the King respectively). In terms of Disney, though, Snow White's story concludes at the end of this film and there's really nothing drawing you to then go further into the Disney catalog based on this alone. I find having a place holder movie to represent better movies made by the same company simply because it was the first of its kind to rather defeat the purpose of this list entirely.

I agree with this in that we shouldn't have a movie stand in for an entire career. I know Amy and Paul have repeatedly said "Does X need all these movies in the top 100?" but I've consistently thought it was fine if I feel the movie is legitimately one of the top 100 best (keeping in mind that everyone's 100 is different). If that means 10 Disney movies make it, whatever.

The top 100 movies isn't the same thing as "100 movies that represent the full breadth of American cinema."

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Alright, so sitting on my thoughts a lot I do believe I am overly critical of this movie, but I also think that's a lot of what we're supposed to be doing when we get into these films, and especially when they get classified as being "The Greatest." I think that classification sticks with me a lot because when you watch these movies you truly expect them to be the greatest, and I really don't feel that way about Snow White. I certainly don't hate this film, but like I realized earlier I really don't think I like it either. Like when they talk about the way it was filmed that is definitely what I like about this, and the shot of the witch's face when Snow White takes a bite out of the apple but we only see her reaction rather than Snow's face eating and dying. That's a really stylistic choice that I love.

If there was a list that was like a "Must See" or "Most Influential" I would absolutely feel that it deserved a spot, but once again I just hyper focus on what this list claims to be and I don't think it fits into that criteria. Then trying to get away from the "does this deserve to be on the list" conversation I do want to discuss what the film is and what its story is. To me, I feel like it lacks in story, and maybe that's because to me the most interesting parts are with The Queen and the least interesting are how Snow White "mothers" the dwarfs, which seems to be a giant chunk of the movie.

But, maybe I'm being too hard on it.

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2 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

 

Although, I think my son’s favorite early Disney movies would be either Pinocchio (which I hate) and 101 Dalmatians (which I’m not sure counts as “early” Disney).

Pinocchio is trash! I recently watched this while snowed-in in Wisconsin. I had no idea what horrible, racist, awful nonsense that movie was! I don't even think I really liked it as a kid. It wasn't one we kept around the house.

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48 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

If there was a list that was like a "Must See" or "Most Influential" I would absolutely feel that it deserved a spot, but once again I just hyper focus on what this list claims to be and I don't think it fits into that criteria. Then trying to get away from the "does this deserve to be on the list" conversation I do want to discuss what the film is and what its story is. To me, I feel like it lacks in story, and maybe that's because to me the most interesting parts are with The Queen and the least interesting are how Snow White "mothers" the dwarfs, which seems to be a giant chunk of the movie.

But, maybe I'm being too hard on it.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but the list claims to be the “greatest American films” which, for me, means the whole process. And I try my best to not necessarily think of “greatest” as a synonym for “most enjoyable.” For example, I probably enjoy watching Big Hero Six more than Snow White, but in terms of influence, technical achievement, and moving the art of filmmaking forward, it’s certainly not the “greater” film. I mean, I’ll be honest, there are movies on this list I straight up hate, but I think deserve to be on the list for what they did for cinema. 

I mean, sure, there has to be some entertainment value too, but I feel like it’s got to achieve more than just that.

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6 minutes ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

Pinocchio is trash! I recently watched this while snowed-in in Wisconsin. I had no idea what horrible, racist, awful nonsense that movie was! I don't even think I really liked it as a kid. It wasn't one we kept around the house.

A year or so ago we started going through the Disney catalog chronologically, and yeah, Pinocchio was shockingly bad.

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18 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but the list claims to be the “greatest American films” which, for me, means the whole process. And I try my best to not necessarily think of “greatest” as a synonym for “most enjoyable.” For example, I probably enjoy watching Big Hero Six more than Snow White, but in terms of influence, technical achievement, and moving the art of filmmaking forward, it’s certainly not the “greater” film. I mean, I’ll be honest, there are movies on this list I straight up hate, but I think deserve to be on the list for what they did for cinema. 

I mean, sure, there has to be some entertainment value too, but I feel like it’s got to achieve more than just that.

I'm not equating enjoyable with greatness. I enjoy the fuck out of Josie and the Pussycats but I would never argue for it to be considered one of the greatest movies of all time lol. But I think that what we consider a good or great movie should be discussed. I personally do not think influence or achievement should equate greatness either or else Avatar would have a bigger standing in the conversation for the new updated list, and I swear to god if Avatar makes it on that list I'm flipping a table lol.

ETA: In terms of Snow White I am truly on the fence about whether it's the right Disney animated film to make it onto the list, if I'm keepin' it 100. My gut reaction wants to say that it should be replaced with something better, because I do think that Walt focused so much on the animation and filming that the story aspect kinda got pushed to the side. However, many people do love this movie and I do think it holds higher and to a better standing than something like French Connection, which makes me want to keep it and maybe just add something from a later decade like The Lion King so not every Disney movie is just lumped into two films.

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15 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I'm not equating enjoyable with greatness. I enjoy the fuck out of Josie and the Pussycats but I would never argue for it to be considered one of the greatest movies of all time lol. But I think that what we consider a good or great movie should be discussed. I personally do not think influence or achievement should equate greatness either or else Avatar would have a bigger standing in the conversation for the new updated list, and I swear to god if Avatar makes it on that list I'm flipping a table lol.

I guess the question goes back to you then. What do you think makes a “great” movie? Because, personally, I don’t have a problem with including achievement and influence as at least part of the criteria. If nothing else, allowing for influence and achievement gives me the distance I need when I really don’t see the appeal of one of these movies.

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5 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I guess the question goes back to you then. What do you think makes a “great” movie? Because, personally, I don’t have a problem with including achievement and influence as at least part of the criteria. If nothing else, allowing for influence and achievement gives me the distance I need when really don’t see the appeal in one of these particular movies.

That's an excellent question. I'm definitely going to think about it probably for the next week for sure lol, but my gut reaction tells me that everything has to be top notch, if that makes sense. Like being influential and ground-breaking with new achievements is all great and good but if there's not a good story or the characters are mind bogglingly under-developed then that's not a great movie to me. This is why I mentioned Avatar, because James Cameron can invent all the new ways to film that he wants but it is a BORING movie that completely rips off many stories before it, so why celebrate something just because of a new invention if the movie he made with it was garbage?

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26 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

A year or so ago we started going through the Disney catalog chronologically, and yeah, Pinocchio was shockingly bad.

I started the same thing not long ago, I'm not that far into it yet, but yes Pinocchio is trash. I can't get over how much so, actually. It's fascinating to me that so much of it is so engrained in culture.

Forget if it was Paul or Amy, but one of them said something about Snow White being about "learning to be an adult" and that's what Pinocchio is, but it extends the unfun moralizing so much further.

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57 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

That's an excellent question. I'm definitely going to think about it probably for the next week for sure lol, but my gut reaction tells me that everything has to be top notch, if that makes sense. Like being influential and ground-breaking with new achievements is all great and good but if there's not a good story or the characters are mind bogglingly under-developed then that's not a great movie to me. This is why I mentioned Avatar, because James Cameron can invent all the new ways to film that he wants but it is a BORING movie that completely rips off many stories before it, so why celebrate something just because of a new invention if the movie he made with it was garbage?

I think that’s tough to judge though as it treads into the realm of subjectivity. Who among us can even agree on what’s a “good story?” Paul likes Marvel movies, Amy doesn’t. Hell, you and I can’t even agree between two Disney princesses much less every American film ever made. I’m sure all four of us have very different opinions on what makes a good story.

As far as underdeveloped characters, that’s a little less subjective, but who’s to say what’s an underdeveloped character or not? I see far more depth in Snow White than you do. I see a dreamer, a romantic, a kind heart, a person trusting to a fault, a person who - despite her suffering - just wants to sing and dance and be happy. Now, is she as developed as, say, Ariel or Belle? Probably not. But I doubt that they had the same luxury of time and money as those films either, so cuts were probably made to make it work with as little as possible. So I guess the question is then, is she developed enough. Do we understand who she is and what her motivations are? Do we worry for her when she’s in danger? Do we feel happy for her when she feels safe? Do we laugh with her, and do we cry for her? If so, then I think the movie has accomplished it’s goal - especially for a children’s film which doesn’t need to be overly complex.

So, taking it back to Avatar, maybe that’s why it doesn’t make the list, but Titanic does? Neither Jack or Rose are overly complex, but we still feel for them unlike Avatar-guy.

I think that’s why you have to weigh these movies with things that are more objective. And that’s where cultural influence and technical achievement help to make it, to some extent, measurable.

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@SeekerofJoy wanna discuss why you're laughing at my opinion? I am more than happy to talk about this further and listen to an actual formulated response that isn't just "haha."

(If it was an accidental response then by all means ignore this post. I just am always curious about reactions lol.)

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1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

I'm not equating enjoyable with greatness. I enjoy the fuck out of Josie and the Pussycats but I would never argue for it to be considered one of the greatest movies of all time lol.

Hold up. Let's not say things we can't take back. 

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8 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I think that’s tough to judge though as it treads into the realm of subjectivity. Who among us can even agree on what’s a “good story?” Paul likes Marvel movies, Amy doesn’t. Hell, you and I can’t even agree between two Disney princesses much less every American film ever made. I’m sure all four of us have very different opinions on what makes a good story.

As far as underdeveloped characters, that’s a little less subjective, but what’s to say who’s an underdeveloped character or not? I see far more depth in Snow White than you do. I see a dreamer, a romantic, a kind heart, a person trusting to a fault, a person who - despite her suffering - just wants to sing and dance and be happy. Now, is she as developed as, say, Ariel or Belle? Probably not. But I doubt that they had the same luxury of time and money as those films either, so cuts were probably made to make it work with as little as possible. So I guess the question is then, is she developed enough. Do we understand who she is and what her motivations are? Do we worry for her when she’s in danger? Do we feel happy for her when she feels safe? Do we laugh with her, and do we cry for her? If so, then I think the movie has accomplished it’s goal - especially for a children’s film which doesn’t need to be overly complex.

So, taking it back to Avatar, maybe that’s why it doesn’t make the list, but Titanic does? Neither Jack or Rose are overly complex, but we still feel for them unlike Avatar-guy.

I think that’s why you have to weigh these movies with things that are more objective. And that’s where cultural influence and technical achievement help to make it, to some extent, measurable.

Good points! Honestly maybe this is why these lists are kinda like not holding as much weight to them as they used to. A bunch of people get together and tell us what is considered the greatest of all time and we just have to accept it as blind truth? Sounds fake LOL. No but really it's a good point to raise that art is subjective and I can't even imagine the debates that happen in order to create these lists to begin with.

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9 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

Good points! Honestly maybe this is why these lists are kinda like not holding as much weight to them as they used to. A bunch of people get together and tell us what is considered the greatest of all time and we just have to accept it as blind truth? Sounds fake LOL. No but really it's a good point to raise that art is subjective and I can't even imagine the debates that happen in order to create these lists to begin with.

Oh, I agree. These lists can be kind of a joke. However, I think that things are definitely starting to open up. And the more diversification we see, the more likely movies like The French Connection, MASH, and Goodfellas (which tend to skew more favorably with old, cis-gendered, white dudes) will drop off in favor of other, more inclusive, movies - like Josie and the Pusseycats ;) 

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Just now, Cameron H. said:

Oh, I agree. These lists can be kind of a joke. However, I think that things are definitely starting to open up. And the more diversification we see, the more likely movies like The French Connection, MASH, and Goodfellas (which tend to skew more favorably with old, cis-gendered white dudes) drop off in favor of other, more inclusive, movies - like Josie and the Pusseycats ;) 

giphy.gif

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1 minute ago, Cameron H. said:

giphy.gif

CAMERON THAT'S MY LOOK STOP STEALING MY LOOK

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20 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

Good points! Honestly maybe this is why these lists are kinda like not holding as much weight to them as they used to. A bunch of people get together and tell us what is considered the greatest of all time and we just have to accept it as blind truth? Sounds fake LOL. No but really it's a good point to raise that art is subjective and I can't even imagine the debates that happen in order to create these lists to begin with.

The other thing is that there isn't really a "debate." I mean, maybe there is for the list of nominees (which is very extensive), but for the final list it's just individual people voting. Those votes are then combined to form a Top 100 list, which represents a kind of consensus. No one is going to be happy with every part of the consensus

To that end, Snow White is not my favorite of Disney animation, but I'm comfortable with it being here.  It was a true cinematic landmark and massively influential on everything in its wake. Even to this day, the animation is stunning, even more impressive given that no one knew how to make a movie like this at the time. I can support its inclusion, even if (IMO) the story is a little bit disjointed as compared to subsequent Disney efforts and the moral lessons are a little bit wonky by modern standards (that part you can apply to just about all of Classic Disney).

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29 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

@SeekerofJoy wanna discuss why you're laughing at my opinion? I am more than happy to talk about this further and listen to an actual formulated response that isn't just "haha."

Sorry, I picked the wrong icon, thinking it was a smiley face. I like Cinderella too. 

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2 minutes ago, SeekerofJoy said:

Sorry, I picked the wrong icon, thinking it was a smiley face. I like Cinderella too. 

I got the notification that you had switched it and immediately felt bad for calling you out, but I was definitely like DEFEND THIS ACTION AS I HAVE DONE! 😂

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