Musical Mondays Week 84 Fame

[Cam Bert 8145]

Baby we looked at you and we will tell you what we saw,

We watched:

[Cameron H. 23786]

I feel like I may be in the minority here, but I really enjoyed this movie. I liked how it followed these characters all the way through from audition to graduation, but left their future in limbo. The fact that we know that most of these characters are not going to succeed beyond their four years at this school, but they can still "Sing the Body Electric"-- turns a future of uncertainty into a moment of triumph. 

 

[Cam Bert 8145]

So when the movie was done I was left with the question, "Did I enjoy that?" It's been a day and I'm still not sure I know the answer to it. I know it wasn't bad but I'm not sure if I enjoyed it or not. I think that's largely due to the movie jumping between all the characters. They wanted to show you all these different students and their stories and their lives but at a certain point this movie becomes the Ralph, Doris, and Montgomery story. Their story takes up most of the running time. The only problem with that is because you spend so much time with them we just kinda drop in on the other kids at their most dramatic. The other students don't really seem to have any clear end or middle or beginning to their stories. The closest to a full story outside of the main three is Doris. She shows up and states her intention to sleep with Leroy. she sleeps with him, she gets an abortion. Yet you have Bruno and Coco and their thing that goes nowhere, and it end of Coco being sexually assaulted. I get it because "these things" happen but next thing you know she's happy at graduation. It's just weird. Also there is electronic music at graduation so I guess Bruno won in his struggle with the teacher again this storyline just kinda left unresolved. Part of me wishes we saw more of everybody else or at least show us less and focus more on the core three. This sort of imbalance left me just a bit confused and frustrated.

[Cam Bert 8145]

3 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I feel like I may be in the minority here, but I really enjoyed this movie. I liked how it followed these characters all the way through from audition to graduation, but left their future in limbo. The fact that we know that most of these characters are not going to succeed beyond their four years at this school, but they can still "Sing the Body Electric"-- turns a future of uncertainty into a moment of triumph. 

Predictions for who actually ends up successful?

I think Montgomery becomes a success but not acting rather directing or something like that. Bruno eventually gets there but not for awhile. Once computers become more mainstream he starts music there. Again maybe producing more than anything. The real success story is that girl with the OJ Simpson impersonation.

[Cameron H. 23786]

2 minutes ago, Cam Bert said:

So when the movie was done I was left with the question, "Did I enjoy that?" It's been a day and I'm still not sure I know the answer to it. I know it wasn't bad but I'm not sure if I enjoyed it or not. I think that's largely due to the movie jumping between all the characters. They wanted to show you all these different students and their stories and their lives but at a certain point this movie becomes the Ralph, Doris, and Montgomery story. Their story takes up most of the running time. The only problem with that is because you spend so much time with them we just kinda drop in on the other kids at their most dramatic. The other students don't really seem to have any clear end or middle or beginning to their stories. The closest to a full story outside of the main three is Doris. She shows up and states her intention to sleep with Leroy. she sleeps with him, she gets an abortion. Yet you have Bruno and Coco and their thing that goes nowhere, and it end of Coco being sexually assaulted. I get it because "these things" happen but next thing you know she's happy at graduation. It's just weird. Also there is electronic music at graduation so I guess Bruno won in his struggle with the teacher again this storyline just kinda left unresolved. Part of me wishes we saw more of everybody else or at least show us less and focus more on the core three. This sort of imbalance left me just a bit confused and frustrated.

I don't disagree with this. I felt particularly let down with the Leroy resolution. He's clearly illiterate and has been butting heads with his English teacher since day one. We know she's going to kick him out because he doesn't do any of his assigned course work, they have a moment at the hospital, and then...he's in the graduation ceremony? 

That being said, I almost feel like the graduation ceremony was more metaphorical than literal. It's about the undaunted optimism of youth and going after your dreams even after realizing that maybe they aren't what they're cracked up to be.   

[Cameron H. 23786]

2 minutes ago, Cam Bert said:

Predictions for who actually ends up successful?

I think Montgomery becomes a success but not acting rather directing or something like that. Bruno eventually gets there but not for awhile. Once computers become more mainstream he starts music there. Again maybe producing more than anything. The real success story is that girl with the OJ Simpson impersonation.

I think Ralph gets there--whether we want him to or not. He's the kind of person that nobody likes, doesn't really put in that much effort, but you can't deny that he's got that kind of "it" factor that's going to propel him to stardom. I think Bruno is primed for the Eighties and will do well as a Producer. I also agree with you regarding Montgomery. I also think the French dancer will do okay--after her abortion.

As for the rest of them, I think they end up doing little things here and there. Maybe local theater and commercials. Doris probably ends up teaching at that school.

[Cam Bert 8145]

2 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I don't disagree with this. I felt particularly let down with the Leroy resolution. He's clearly illiterate and has been butting heads with his English teacher since day one. We know she's going to kick him out because he doesn't do any of his assigned course work, they have a moment at the hospital, and then...he's in the graduation ceremony? 

That being said, I almost feel like the graduation ceremony was more metaphorical than literal. It's about the undaunted optimism of youth and going after your dreams even after realizing that maybe they aren't what they're cracked up to be.   

Yes! When Leroy asks about the teacher and they say she's at the hospital because her husband is very sick and he goes there you think "Oh, I know they've been butting heads these four years but maybe he does actually respect her." Nope, immediately into the exact same scene they've been having for the last four years! He didn't come to tell her that he actually like Othello or anything just a repeat of the same scene.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I just listened to "I Sing the Body Electric" and I really do like the message of that song. That their goal is obviously immortality, but there's also a darkness implied. Burning with "the brightness of ten million stars" also implies a chance of shinning brilliantly for a moment, but also impermanently. For many of those students, that graduation ceremony is their peak.

[Cameron H. 23786]

5 minutes ago, Cam Bert said:

Yes! When Leroy asks about the teacher and they say she's at the hospital because her husband is very sick and he goes there you think "Oh, I know they've been butting heads these four years but maybe he does actually respect her." Nope, immediately into the exact same scene they've been having for the last four years! He didn't come to tell her that he actually like Othello or anything just a repeat of the same scene.

However, what I loved about that scene--and arguably the point of it--was to show truly selfish those teens actually are. They are so focused on being stars, that they ignore the feelings of those around them. It kind of makes the argument that fame doesn't make a person a selfish asshole, it's the fact they are selfish assholes that makes them famous. It's kind of how I feel about politicians in general. The reason that so many politicians are corrupt is because that kind of power is attractive to people with a certain personality type. For the most part, the people who would do what's best for others aren't the type of people interested in running for office.

[GrahamS. 803]

Love the poster!!! Can’t say the same about the movie.

I’ll start with the one positive area—that I legitimately think the film did really well—was the film’s sense of documentary-like realism. It’s well-cast (even if some of the folks look closer to 25 than 16) and the film’s fly-on-the-wall observational approach to the audition scenes was intriguing and genuinely enjoyable. This tone continued to produce interesting moments throughout the film.

BUT HOLY SHIt, WAS THIS FILM PROBLEMATIC!!!

if I were to try to boil it down, I would say that this film’s greatest strength—it’s realism—is also its greatest weakness because—over the course of 130 minutes +—it reduces its characters’ journeys to exposition dumps. There are simply TOO MANY PEOPLE HERE! And too many issues! So every scene is someone broadcasting—by literally saying aloud— “I’m in therapy! I’m gay! I’m having an abortion! I can’t read!”obviously, it’s not one character saying all of these things but it would’ve been more fun if it was. It just ended up feeling very trite (and sometimes unintentionally racist) to me.

i did enjoy the first half because the film is so jarring at points, but when it came to the unearned “I’m committing suicide/oh I’m just kidding scene”, I wanted to tell this movie to go fuck itself.

Also, as someone who went to the same high school that Quincy Jones graduated from, that has had it’s jazz band tour internationally, I can honestly say that I’ve never seen freshmen spontaneously bust out a fully rehearsed song in the school cafeteria (I did enjoy that scene and the taxi cab “fame” scene, but more because it was so tonally jarring and felt like it came from a totally different movie than it being actually good).

As someone who works in education, I wanted to punch the teacher who insisted the dancer read and speak properly in the face. She never offered to support or help him, she just made fun of him (which is realistic—unfortunately—but also infuriating). Also, was why their conflict drug out over four years? It basically came down to “do better or I’ll get you expelled,” but he never really did better and she never expelled him? Huh?

i kind of admire this movie for not painting a bright, shiny picture of these kids’ futures, but it just feels like an approach that is better suited to a to show where the characters can be fleshed out. As it is, it feels authentic but also really, really trite.

I’m sure some people loved it and I’m not trying to be some asshole that screams “this sucks!” From the rooftops. I just found this film really jarring and—despite individual scenes—it didn’t really work for me.

[GrahamS. 803]

Postscript—I did appreciate the film showing a very realistic- looking Rocky Horror screening, especially since we watched it recently. Although I’m still not entirely convinced that it looks fun and would add to the enjoyment of THAT movie for me. Who was throwing the water? Where did it come from??????

[Cam Bert 8145]

I'm sure this will only be interesting to a few of you so bare with me.

Look we all like music, some of us more than others, and we all have genres of music we like. While I have a strong and healthy love of jazz, my biggest musical love will always be electronica. My favourite band is Daft Punk with probably Devo coming in second. This recent trend of ambient music and synthwave has delighted me greatly. All discussions for another time. Bruno is a up and coming electronic musician and sees technology as the future of music. So much so he gets into an argument with his teacher over it arguing that if Mozart was around he'd go electronic. I'm not sure if the writer of the film knew this or not but there was a Japanese man that had a similar thought as well. Tomita Isao better know as TOMITA was an early pioneer of electronic music and the album that really put him on the map was Snowflakes Are Dancing which was an electronic rearrangement of Debussy's music. Later he would make many more "science-fiction symphonies" by adding spacey elements into his rearrangements of other classic musicians most notably him doing a space up version of Holst's The Planets. While who's to say if Mozart was around these modern times if he would stick to classic full orchestras or do it all with technology, I think it is fun to listen to what could have been.

 

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

5 minutes ago, Cam Bert said:

I'm sure this will only be interesting to a few of you so bare with me.

Look we all like music, some of us more than others, and we all have genres of music we like. While I have a strong and healthy love of jazz, my biggest musical love will always be electronica. My favourite band is Daft Punk with probably Devo coming in second. This recent trend of ambient music and synthwave has delighted me greatly. All discussions for another time. Bruno is a up and coming electronic musician and sees technology as the future of music. So much so he gets into an argument with his teacher over it arguing that if Mozart was around he'd go electronic. I'm not sure if the writer of the film knew this or not but there was a Japanese man that had a similar thought as well. Tomita Isao better know as TOMITA was an early pioneer of electronic music and the album that really put him on the map was Snowflakes Are Dancing which was an electronic rearrangement of Debussy's music. Later he would make many more "science-fiction symphonies" by adding spacey elements into his rearrangements of other classic musicians most notably him doing a space up version of Holst's The Planets. While who's to say if Mozart was around these modern times if he would stick to classic full orchestras or do it all with technology, I think it is fun to listen to what could have been.

 

I wanted the teacher to come back with "Oh, yeah?  Who would know how to play those instruments so they could be recorded in the computer?  Who would know if the sounds were realistic if no one can play the instruments?"  I did like Bruno's music but don't remember him recording anything with Coco before his dad busts out the music.  When Coco said "Hey, that's me!" I was surprised.  However, I LOVED that his dad was so very supportive of him.  Usually parents are indifferent (the French dancer) or antagonistic (Doris' mom).  To see his dad get in fistfights over getting people to hear his son's music was awesome.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

You watched Fame?  I watched Fama.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Unfortunately we know Montgomery doesn't make it.  7 years later he faces a grisly death.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

1 hour ago, Cameron H. said:

I feel like I may be in the minority here, but I really enjoyed this movie. I liked how it followed these characters all the way through from audition to graduation, but left their future in limbo. The fact that we know that most of these characters are not going to succeed beyond their four years at this school, but they can still "Sing the Body Electric"-- turns a future of uncertainty into a moment of triumph. 

 

So the finale covered the dance and music departments.  Where was the drama department in the showcase?

[GrahamS. 803]

26 minutes ago, Cinco DeNio said:

Unfortunately we know Montgomery doesn't make it.  7 years later he faces a grisly death.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Haha!

I do like his hair better here. 

[GrahamS. 803]

1 hour ago, Cameron H. said:

However, what I loved about that scene--and arguably the point of it--was to show truly selfish those teens actually are. They are so focused on being stars, that they ignore the feelings of those around them. It kind of makes the argument that fame doesn't make a person a selfish asshole, it's the fact they are selfish assholes that makes them famous. It's kind of how I feel about politicians in general. The reason that so many politicians are corrupt is because that kind of power is attractive to people with a certain personality type. For the most part, the people who would do what's best for others aren't the type of people interested in running for office.

I agree that the teen is selfish, but the teacher is equally horrible. one of the the things that stood out to me about this movie is how little I liked ANYBODY, except for Irene Cara, who is rewarded for being likable by being exploited. Also, the OJ girl was easily the best part of the movie.

Quick side note on how this film can be read as unintentionally racist: Leroy can’t read, refuses to “speak right,” has an affair with a white girl whom he presumably gets pregnant, leading her to get an abortion that he’s not there for for some unknown reason, is portrayed as a selfish asshole for not sympathizing with a teacher who has only given him shit and not actually taught him anything.

it feels like it goes out of its way to check several stereotypes.

[Cameron H. 23786]

58 minutes ago, GrahamS. said:

I agree that the teen is selfish, but the teacher is equally horrible. one of the the things that stood out to me about this movie is how little I liked ANYBODY, except for Irene Cara, who is rewarded for being likable by being exploited. Also, the OJ girl was easily the best part of the movie.

Quick side note on how this film can be read as unintentionally racist: Leroy can’t read, refuses to “speak right,” has an affair with a white girl whom he presumably gets pregnant, leading her to get an abortion that he’s not there for for some unknown reason, is portrayed as a selfish asshole for not sympathizing with a teacher who has only given him shit and not actually taught him anything.

it feels like it goes out of its way to check several stereotypes.

I don't disagree that the teacher is horrible, but I think that's also the point. She has preconceived ideas of who Leroy is but never really bothers to reach out to him and figure out where he's coming from.

As for the abortion, I didn't get the impression that he wasn't there because he was some kind of deadbeat, but rather she never told him she was pregnant. She didn't want him making the choice for her. She has plans for her future and she doesn't want *anyone* getting in the way--including a potential baby. I also think all the kids (except for maybe Montgomery) are selfish assholes, not just him. In fact, nobody is particularly likable, but I think they all seem like very real teenagers in that way. It's not that they're bad; they're self-involved. 

Like you said, even the teachers seem like a bunch of dicks. The English teacher rides Leroy's ass for four years, the dance teachers are snobs, the music teachers are more or less checked out. I would say the only teacher that seemed at all cool was the drama teacher. However, what I think works for the movie is how it does peel back the facades and shows you who these people really are. Ralph is a lying dick, but you realize he has a tough home life and views Freddie Prinze as a blueprint to get out of his  shitty situation. Montgomery has an absentee mother. Doris' mother is supportive, but in a way that doesn't allow her daughter to change or take chances. It's these glimpses into their lives outside of school that gives you a greater appreciation for where these people are coming from

    

[Cameron H. 23786]

Just now, Cameron H. said:

except for Irene Cara, who is rewarded for being likable by being exploited

I think this is important to show though. Of course it's terrible, but it happens all the time in real life to decent and likable people. The movie is showing that we can put so much emphasis on success and fame that even the best of us can be exploited by unscrupulous people. I'm not sure if it would have been as effective had it been another character.   

[Cameron H. 23786]

I have to say, I had a HUGE problem with Bruno’s choice of hot dog toppings. Chili and sweet relish?

[grudlian. 4725]

10 hours ago, Cam Bert said:

So when the movie was done I was left with the question, "Did I enjoy that?" It's been a day and I'm still not sure I know the answer to it. I know it wasn't bad but I'm not sure if I enjoyed it or not. I think that's largely due to the movie jumping between all the characters. They wanted to show you all these different students and their stories and their lives but at a certain point this movie becomes the Ralph, Doris, and Montgomery story. Their story takes up most of the running time. The only problem with that is because you spend so much time with them we just kinda drop in on the other kids at their most dramatic. The other students don't really seem to have any clear end or middle or beginning to their stories. The closest to a full story outside of the main three is Doris. She shows up and states her intention to sleep with Leroy. she sleeps with him, she gets an abortion. Yet you have Bruno and Coco and their thing that goes nowhere, and it end of Coco being sexually assaulted. I get it because "these things" happen but next thing you know she's happy at graduation. It's just weird. Also there is electronic music at graduation so I guess Bruno won in his struggle with the teacher again this storyline just kinda left unresolved. Part of me wishes we saw more of everybody else or at least show us less and focus more on the core three. This sort of imbalance left me just a bit confused and frustrated.

Sorry I couldn't be here for my own movie, but I had a weird day.

I agree with a lot of this. I wasn't sure how I was going to feel about this going into it. I really like the auditions segment. That was a half hour of movie based on probably a  day or week of the students. Then four years is condensed into an hour and forty five minutes. Since we're condensing their time so much, we barely get to know these characters. We alternate between conversations that don't lead to much and the most important moments of these kids lives. Both extremes are presented with the same weight (which kind of makes sense because I understand "unimportant" conversations can be the most important when you're a teen). For a movie though, it's weird. We're functionally seeing 10 minutes of each characters entire year and sometimes it's just them sitting around telling the audience what their lone character trait is. Each new year felt like they were cramming in something slightly crazier to "progress" the "story" for the character.

On the other hand, there are some great moments. The movie feels really alive in parts. I think the acting is really solid. I wish this was longer so we could actually get to know these characters or get to know them beyond some cliche stereotype.

Basically, I can see why this was a successful television show because the biggest problem is we need more time with these people to truly appreciate them. I know some characters were really cut short or almost entirely removed to let others shine. So, I wouldn't be surprised if they filmed four hours of material. I'd be really interested in a super long director's cut of this.

9 hours ago, GrahamS. said:

I agree that the teen is selfish, but the teacher is equally horrible. one of the the things that stood out to me about this movie is how little I liked ANYBODY, except for Irene Cara, who is rewarded for being likable by being exploited. Also, the OJ girl was easily the best part of the movie.

Quick side note on how this film can be read as unintentionally racist: Leroy can’t read, refuses to “speak right,” has an affair with a white girl whom he presumably gets pregnant, leading her to get an abortion that he’s not there for for some unknown reason, is portrayed as a selfish asshole for not sympathizing with a teacher who has only given him shit and not actually taught him anything.

it feels like it goes out of its way to check several stereotypes.

This is weird for me because I felt like Irene Cara didn't actually stand out much. The imdb trivia said one character was basically cut to let Irene Cara shine and I couldn't tell you anything about her character. She sang Hot Lunch Jam and get assaulted on camera and I couldn't describe anything else that happened to her. I guess she's supposed to be the star of the film but I'd put her under Doris, Montgomery, Ralph, Leroy and electronic music kid.

I thought the movie was going to be better about race when they had Raul insist on going by Ralph and liking Freddie Prinze. I think it does say a lot about non-white people wanting to assimilate themselves to succeed in the arts without explicitly saying it while the other stories very much announced everything about themselves in big bright letters.

[Cam Bert 8145]

1 hour ago, grudlian. said:

I agree with a lot of this. I wasn't sure how I was going to feel about this going into it. I really like the auditions segment. That was a half hour of movie based on probably a  day or week of the students. Then four years is condensed into an hour and forty five minutes. Since we're condensing their time so much, we barely get to know these characters. We alternate between conversations that don't lead to much and the most important moments of these kids lives. Both extremes are presented with the same weight (which kind of makes sense because I understand "unimportant" conversations can be the most important when you're a teen). For a movie though, it's weird. We're functionally seeing 10 minutes of each characters entire year and sometimes it's just them sitting around telling the audience what their lone character trait is. Each new year felt like they were cramming in something slightly crazier to "progress" the "story" for the character.

On the other hand, there are some great moments. The movie feels really alive in parts. I think the acting is really solid. I wish this was longer so we could actually get to know these characters or get to know them beyond some cliche stereotype.

Basically, I can see why this was a successful television show because the biggest problem is we need more time with these people to truly appreciate them. I know some characters were really cut short or almost entirely removed to let others shine. So, I wouldn't be surprised if they filmed four hours of material. I'd be really interested in a super long director's cut of this.

I agree. There are small moments that just kinda flesh out what life in the school was like. There are a few highlighted extras that you see in scenes, but we never get more from them than that kind of slice of life. Those moments are great and add more to the kind of documentary feel. 

I just think back to the scene in which Coco gets a ride home from Bruno's dad. She pretends to live in a nice apartment to secretly take the subway.So she's ashamed of where she's from but it's not like Bruno was a rich kid or anything. Yes he had all that electronic equipment but his dad is a cab driver. Then I started thinking about "Oh, does she not want him to know where she lives because he likes her." Which again, she seemed to be vibing with him at the piano. Then none of it matters because there is not resolution to it any of it. It got me thinking "Oh, is that suppose to be a slice of life scene?" If it was it just seemed to be odd those were the characters chosen to make that point.

[grudlian. 4725]

1 hour ago, Cam Bert said:

I agree. There are small moments that just kinda flesh out what life in the school was like. There are a few highlighted extras that you see in scenes, but we never get more from them than that kind of slice of life. Those moments are great and add more to the kind of documentary feel. 

I just think back to the scene in which Coco gets a ride home from Bruno's dad. She pretends to live in a nice apartment to secretly take the subway.So she's ashamed of where she's from but it's not like Bruno was a rich kid or anything. Yes he had all that electronic equipment but his dad is a cab driver. Then I started thinking about "Oh, does she not want him to know where she lives because he likes her." Which again, she seemed to be vibing with him at the piano. Then none of it matters because there is not resolution to it any of it. It got me thinking "Oh, is that suppose to be a slice of life scene?" If it was it just seemed to be odd those were the characters chosen to make that point.

Exactly. It's weird because a lot of movies add obstacles only to resolve them minutes later. Fame is almost the exact opposite in that every plot point is almost never resolved or, in many cases, even addressed again.

Also, Doris is one of the few characters who has a logical arc. She wants to act but is too scared to perform in front of others. She finally gets the nerve from her love of Rocky Horror. This is years later though. It's ridiculous that a school so competitive that it requires auditions let's anyone stay who presumably can't act and showed no interest/aptitude for dance or music. What was she doing until her junior year? This should have been a story for freshman year alone.

Putting her story next to Ralph who lives a full lifetime to become a drug addict/failed comedian in the span of four years. It's a very weird pacing of stories for everyone.

[GrahamS. 803]

I have to say—after marinating on this for a couple of days—that this film had SO MANY “holy shit, that was out of left field” moments that I can’t easily think of any film to compare it to.

one of my favorite WTF scenes was when Ralph appears to be giving a dramatic monologue and breaking down.  The drama teacher wraps up the scene with something like “Careful Ralph, you want them laughing with you, not at you.” Then the scene ends with no sense of context on how to read any of this. 
 

Though it did make me laugh out of bewilderment.