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Cameron H.

Musical Mondays-Week 8-Rent

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I'm referring to the Always True to You song where she talks about the different men she's met and what she lets them do in exchange for money, furs, jewels, etc.

For instance:

 

Just seems wrong to me to proclaim fidelity to one man and then turn around and say "Tex is here to stay" because he gives me money. As far as Rent, I was thinking of the GIFs I posted last week where Joanne was complaining about Maureen flirting at their engagement party. Maureen's like "Relax, babe. There will always be ladies flirting with me. If they flirt with me I have to flirt back."

 

So you're saying Maureen is also an "unrepentant slut" like the first "unrepentant slut"? Why can't we have one musical without a female lead slutting it up, amirite?

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So you're saying Maureen is also an "unrepentant slut" like the first "unrepentant slut"? Why can't we have one musical without a female lead slutting it up, amirite?

No. In my original post I asked what do we find so charming? In both Bianca's and Maureen's cases they're straightforward about not intending to be true to the person they pledged fidelity to. You make it sound like I want them to be women who gladly go with whoever catches their fancy at the moment and leave the person they promised to stick with. I'm trying to say I want the opposite.

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No. In my original post I asked what do we find so charming? In both Bianca's and Maureen's cases they're straightforward about not intending to be true to the person they pledged fidelity to. You make it sound like I want them to be women who gladly go with whoever catches their fancy at the moment and leave the person they promised to stick with. I'm trying to say I want the opposite.

Maybe a better way to say it is "How are they showing that they really do want to be faithful?" The couples reconcile in both shows and there wouldn't be drama without conflict so maybe they are just finding their way?

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No. In my original post I asked what do we find so charming? In both Bianca's and Maureen's cases they're straightforward about not intending to be true to the person they pledged fidelity to. You make it sound like I want them to be women who gladly go with whoever catches their fancy at the moment and leave the person they promised to stick with. I'm trying to say I want the opposite.

You didn't read Tom's post very well then because she's in fact calling you out for not only calling these women sluts to begin with but passing judgement on them at all.

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Maybe a better way to say it is "How are they showing that they really do want to be faithful?" The couples reconcile in both shows and there wouldn't be drama without conflict so maybe they are just finding their way?

In Rent (movie only) we never even see hard proof that Maureen cheats ever. It all starts with Mark planting an idea in Joanne's head that she then holds onto every time she sees Maureen talk to another person, which is also always shown through Joanne's eyes. Yes Maureen admits that she likes to flirt but never says "hey I'm actually sleeping with these people too."

 

So calling Maureen a gendered slur based on no information is highly offensive.

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In Rent (movie only) we never even see hard proof that Maureen cheats ever. It all starts with Mark planting an idea in Joanne's head that she then holds onto every time she sees Maureen talk to another person, which is also always shown through Joanne's eyes. Yes Maureen admits that she likes to flirt but never says "hey I'm actually sleeping with these people too."

 

So calling Maureen a gendered slur based on no information is highly offensive.

I don't want to detract from the point you and tomspanks are making, but I am very curious: do you think Maureen ever cheats on Joanne?

 

I guess I took it at face value initially, but this is twice you've mentioned that maybe it was Joanne just being suspicious because Mark planted the idea. And it now makes me wonder if she ever really cheated on Mark.

 

She's definitely flirty (and, regardless of whether she cheats or not, if you're in a monogamous relationship, flirting with someone else at your engagement party is a little fucked up), but maybe Mark was just overly jealous and insecure? They seem to get along better than I would expect for a couple where one was caught cheating.

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- The first guy to sing in the 'Will I Lose My Dignity' song is Aaron Lohr, who plays Dean Portman in the Mighty Ducks movies.

dean-portman.jpg

 

Idina & Aaron are a couple / engaged

Lohr began dating actress Idina Menzel and they appeared together in April 2015 at the White House Correspondents' Association Dinner.[9] They both starred in the 2005 film adaptation of the musical Rent as well as the off-broadway musical See What I Wanna See.

Menzel announced on September 23, 2016, via her Twitter account, that she and Lohr are engaged

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I don't want to detract from the point you and tomspanks are making, but I am very curious: do you think Maureen ever cheats on Joanne?

 

I guess I took it at face value initially, but this is twice you've mentioned that maybe it was Joanne just being suspicious because Mark planted the idea. And it now makes me wonder if she ever really cheated on Mark.

 

She's definitely flirty (and, regardless of whether she cheats or not, if you're in a monogamous relationship, flirting with someone else at your engagement party is a little fucked up), but maybe Mark was just overly jealous and insecure? They seem to get along better than I would expect for a couple where one was caught cheating.

 

I think she cheated on Mark. That's how he is able to get into Joanne's head: if they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you.

 

I also think it's cyclical. She's a naturally flirty person who craves stability (i.e. Joanne and Mark). However, J and M's insecurities drive her to her infidelities. "I've done nothing to betray your trust, but you treat me like I'm an adulterer. If you're going to treat me like in a cheater, then I might as well cheat."

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I don't want to detract from the point you and tomspanks are making, but I am very curious: do you think Maureen ever cheats on Joanne?

 

I guess I took it at face value initially, but this is twice you've mentioned that maybe it was Joanne just being suspicious because Mark planted the idea. And it now makes me wonder if she ever really cheated on Mark.

 

She's definitely flirty (and, regardless of whether she cheats or not, if you're in a monogamous relationship, flirting with someone else at your engagement party is a little fucked up), but maybe Mark was just overly jealous and insecure? They seem to get along better than I would expect for a couple where one was caught cheating.

I never got the impression that Maureen cheated on either Mark or Joanne. She was dating Mark, dumped him, then was dating Joanne. At least that's how it is presented story wise. And after "Tango: Maureen" things that Joanne NEVER noticed until Mark started saying stuff suddenly became all she could see within their relationship. Literally they were fine until Mark was like "Oh hey she's probably cheating on you."

 

But also why I mention Joanne being overly suspicious is because we never actually hear what Maureen is saying in both cases either. Like she is grabbing at a necklace or sitting on the desk and writing something down, but we never actually know what's happening there. I know a couple of people (man & woman) that are very touchy in general with everyone and it's something that could be taken as flirtatious but they're just really friendly and that's how they show their friendship and trust.

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The issue of cheating and Maureen I was kinda confused on the whole time. When Mark was first talking about it I assumed he cheated on her with Joanne, but then that begs the larger question of what is cheating. There is no doubt that she met Joanne while dating Mark and eventually fell for her, but did that ever move to the physical aspect of things is unclear. Then for some cheating doesn't have to be physical it can be emotional. While she might have been physical with Joanne yet she may have started falling for her and then ended things with Mark when she wanted to take those feelings to the next stage of a relationship. Is that cheating? It depends largely on the person. Then again she may have ended things with him and then met and started dating Joanne. We only really her Mark's, the jilted lover, view on all of it so it's a bit bias.

 

Then that brings up is she cheating on Joanne and here is where I got confused. I agree with Fister, Taylor, et all who say that Mark puts the idea in her head. Right after this she gets the phone call and Maureen calls Joanne "pookie" and it's a big deal. The obvious implication being she used her pet name for another person with her. This combined with her flirty ways and Mark's sour seed, morphs into "she's cheating." However, after that throughout the film on a few other occasions Maureen calls Joanne pookie. It's never drawn attention to it's just said and moves on. So is that what she just calls Joanne now? Was she just trying out a new pet name and it seems to have stuck? It's no longer the smoking gun of cheating it once was. I then thought "Maybe she's aware that if she feel in love behind Mark's back what if she does that with me." That doesn't make sense though because she was that person and surely must be aware of how their relationship came to be, unless it was true that they broke up and then met each other.

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I never got the impression that Maureen cheated on either Mark or Joanne. She was dating Mark, dumped him, then was dating Joanne. At least that's how it is presented story wise. And after "Tango: Maureen" things that Joanne NEVER noticed until Mark started saying stuff suddenly became all she could see within their relationship. Literally they were fine until Mark was like "Oh hey she's probably cheating on you."

 

But also why I mention Joanne being overly suspicious is because we never actually hear what Maureen is saying in both cases either. Like she is grabbing at a necklace or sitting on the desk and writing something down, but we never actually know what's happening there. I know a couple of people (man & woman) that are very touchy in general with everyone and it's something that could be taken as flirtatious but they're just really friendly and that's how they show their friendship and trust.

That's really interesting. I read that TOTALLY differently.

 

I took it as Maureen had never, for example, called her "Pookie." So, when Mark says that, she's like, "Oh, she never calls me 'Pookie.'"

 

Then, later, when she DOES call her "Pookie," she's like, "Ohhhhh, this is the sign!"

 

I love when people can watch the same movie and come away with different reads on the exact same scene. Another good example of that is the Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood (an awesome podcast focusing on black actors and representation in big-budget films that I encourage everyone to check out if you're not listening already) episode covering Get Out (NOTE: we use spoiler tags to fuck around a lot, but there are for real some minor spoilers for that movie under this tag).

They talked about how terrifying they found the scene in the beginning when the officer asks to see Chris' license, and Rose starts telling the officer how he wasn't driving and that's bullshit. To me, I was like, "That feels a bit white savior-y, but I guess they're establishing the character."

 

Then they get back in the car and Chris is like, "That was hot." All the Black Men Can't Jump guys were like, "No, that was fucking terrifying!" And they said how whenever a white person acts like that toward a racist person (particularly a police officer) in their experience, it usually ends up making it worse for them as black men. And I would literally NEVER have thought of that.

 

 

 

That's a bit of a detour from what we're talking about, but 1) I get really excited when people read scenes completely differently, and 2) I have not gotten to talk about what a fucking masterpiece Get Out is nearly enough.

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My interpretation of the Maureen/Joanne dynamic was same as Fister's, but after reading the other posts, I'm not so sure anymore! I love that I can still discover new things about Rent from you guys.

 

Kateacola, the Idina & Aaron couple news blew my mind!

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Literally they were fine until Mark was like "Oh hey she's probably cheating on you."

 

That's not true. Joanne is bending over backwards doing all of this stuff for Maureen and she's feeling used. I don't think Mark was trying to plant anything in her head so much as they were bonding over their neuroses. Joanne starts it by complaining about how she doesn't know what she's even doing and Maureen didn't even bother to show up. Mark then says, "Doesn't she just make you want to drink gasoline?" and she replies, "As a matter of fact..." This all occurs before the "pookie" bit. He then says the "Pookie" line and she's relieved and smug ("Never"), but when he asks her if she's ever doubted a kiss she's says that's "spooky." So later, when Maureen calls Joanne "Pookie" it's like it's happening all over again. Now Mark is the smug one.

 

By the end of the song, they both say "She cheated, she cheated, Maureen cheated, fuckin' cheated." Now I can't say for sure if Maureen ever cheated on Joanne, but I'd say she definitely cheated on Mark. When they are exchanging the "she cheated" lines, Joanne could have easily said, "No, dude, you guys were broken up..."

 

"The Tango Maureen" is about two ocean waves bonding over the feelings they share about the rock they keep dashing themselves upon.

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My interpretation of the Maureen/Joanne dynamic was same as Fister's, but after reading the other posts, I'm not so sure anymore! I love that I can still discover new things about Rent from you guys.

Second this ^ I had the same feelings, but now wonder... & it's cool to see different interpretations.

 

Kateacola, the Idina & Aaron couple news blew my mind!

200.gif#38

No me too, I was just looking at Idina's wiki to see more about her marriage to Taye Diggs.. and then recognized the name & connected the dots from Cakebug's post

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By the end of the song, they both say "She cheated, she cheated, Maureen cheated, fuckin' cheated." Now I can't say for sure if Maureen ever cheated on Joanne, but I'd say she definitely cheated on Mark. When they are exchanging the "she cheated" lines, Joanne could have easily said, "No, dude, you guys were broken up..."

I didn't take Joanne as the person she cheated with. It sounded like she either left him for her or that they got together after Maureen and Mark broke up. But I didn't get the feeling that he was like, "She cheated with you..."

 

I think both readings might hold and that it could be open to interpretation, but I'm not sure. And clearly the only answer is to watch the stage version 20 more times.

 

But I just got 7 F&F movies in on Blu-Ray, so it's gonna be a minute before I get to that :)

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I love when people can watch the same movie and come away with different reads on the exact same scene. Another good example of that is the Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood (an awesome podcast focusing on black actors and representation in big-budget films that I encourage everyone to check out if you're not listening already) episode covering Get Out (NOTE: we use spoiler tags to fuck around a lot, but there are for real some minor spoilers for that movie under this tag).

They talked about how terrifying they found the scene in the beginning when the officer asks to see Chris' license, and Rose starts telling the officer how he wasn't driving and that's bullshit. To me, I was like, "That feels a bit white savior-y, but I guess they're establishing the character."

 

Then they get back in the car and Chris is like, "That was hot." All the Black Men Can't Jump guys were like, "No, that was fucking terrifying!" And they said how whenever a white person acts like that toward a racist person (particularly a police officer) in their experience, it usually ends up making it worse for them as black men. And I would literally NEVER have thought of that.

 

 

 

That's a bit of a detour from what we're talking about, but 1) I get really excited when people read scenes completely differently, and 2) I have not gotten to talk about what a fucking masterpiece Get Out is nearly enough.

Okay TOTALLY going on to this topic now lol.

 

 

I see their point. I can't even imagine the kind of fear POCs (especially black people) go through any time they are approached by a cop.

 

I heard a story from a black woman about how she went to the grocery store with her sister-in-law (who is biracial but white passing) and how the clerk when they bought their items completely treated them differently and was being racist towards the black woman. Her sister-in-law called her ass out and it got the manager involved and everything went in their favor. Basically the reason why the woman decided to tell this story was because she was telling white and white passing people to stick up for minorities that they see being treated unfairly based on the color of their skin because sometimes we are the voice that people will listen to. It's not fair but maybe that's how change starts.

 

Maybe with the police it is a totally different situation but I can't fully comment on any of that as a white woman.

 

I also saw a photo come out of South Africa (I think it was from 2015) where the black students at this college were peacefully protesting and there were cops surrounding them with guns, as we are now used to seeing here as well, but there were also white students standing arm and arm in between the cops and the black students basically saying "if you want to shoot them you have to go through us first," and I saw a lot of POCs online repost that with the caption "now THIS is how you become an ally!"

 

Then again there are a ton of POCs out there that don't want us fighting their fight. I get that too. It's all going to be a person by person and situation by situation scenario I believe.

 

BUT HOLY SHIT GET OUT THO!

 

My favorite part of so much of the imagery he sets up is how the suburban area where Lakeith finds himself in is the scariest thing, and then after he is kidnapped we are taken to the imagery of urban America that Chris photographs and that's the safe haven.

 

JORDAN PEELE IS A GOD DAMN AUTEUR AND IT'S HIS GOD DAMN DEBUT

 

 

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200.gif#196

FUCK TO THE YES.

 

I've been saying 'Get Out' to that movie all week because I can't stop thinking about it.

 

giphy.gif

 

 

LET'S TALK ABOUT IT MUCH MUCH MORE NOW

 

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That's not true. Joanne is bending over backwards doing all of this stuff for Maureen and she's feeling used. I don't think Mark was trying to plant anything in her head so much as they were bonding over their neuroses. Joanne starts it by complaining about how she doesn't know what she's even doing and Maureen didn't even bother to show up. Mark then says, "Doesn't she just make you want to drink gasoline?" and she replies, "As a matter of fact..." This all occurs before the "pookie" bit. He then says the "Pookie" line and she's relieved and smug ("Never"), but when he asks her if she's ever doubted a kiss she's says that's "spooky." So later, when Maureen calls Joanne "Pookie" it's like it's happening all over again. Now Mark is the smug one.

 

By the end of the song, they both say "She cheated, she cheated, Maureen cheated, fuckin' cheated." Now I can't say for sure if Maureen ever cheated on Joanne, but I'd say she definitely cheated on Mark. When they are exchanging the "she cheated" lines, Joanne could have easily said, "No, dude, you guys were broken up..."

 

"The Tango Maureen" is about two ocean waves bonding over the feelings they share about the rock they keep dashing themselves upon.

Yes she was feeling used. I am not saying that Maureen is the most perfect companion to be with. However, Joanne was only talking about feeling underappreciated UNTIL Mark started saying other stuff because he had felt that way. I could just as easily be misinterpretting things here, but the way that I took it was more like the power of suggestion. Like she isn't feeling satisfied so everything Mark is saying is really making sense despite the fact that it may not be true.

 

Also since the part where they sing "She cheated. Fuckin' cheated," all happens inside Mark's head after he gets hit, I have to throw all of that evidence out the window. She could have cheated on Mark but that is no evidence towards cheating on Joanne (DESPITE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE STAGE VERSION BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MOVIE Y'ALL.)

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I've been saying 'Get Out' to that movie all week because I can't stop thinking about it.

 

LET'S TALK ABOUT IT MUCH MUCH MORE NOW

 

 

 

Like seriously, my kids went upstairs just tonight to brush their teeth and I just stared at the ceiling, listening to them walk above me and I was trying to figure out what I was quoting.

 

 

Your point was much more sophisticated though Taylor...

 

ETA - wait I don't think Cam or Tom have seen this yet. Are we about to find justice over the 'Iron Fist' debacle? ;)

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I see their point. I can't even imagine the kind of fear POCs (especially black people) go through any time they are approached by a cop.

 

I heard a story from a black woman about how she went to the grocery store with her sister-in-law (who is biracial but white passing) and how the clerk when they bought their items completely treated them differently and was being racist towards the black woman. Her sister-in-law called her ass out and it got the manager involved and everything went in their favor. Basically the reason why the woman decided to tell this story was because she was telling white and white passing people to stick up for minorities that they see being treated unfairly based on the color of their skin because sometimes we are the voice that people will listen to. It's not fair but maybe that's how change starts.

 

Maybe with the police it is a totally different situation but I can't fully comment on any of that as a white woman.

 

I also saw a photo come out of South Africa (I think it was from 2015) where the black students at this college were peacefully protesting and there were cops surrounding them with guns, as we are now used to seeing here as well, but there were also white students standing arm and arm in between the cops and the black students basically saying "if you want to shoot them you have to go through us first," and I saw a lot of POCs online repost that with the caption "now THIS is how you become an ally!"

 

Then again there are a ton of POCs out there that don't want us fighting their fight. I get that too. It's all going to be a person by person and situation by situation scenario I believe.

 

 

I don't know how to say this without it sounding like a self-important humblebrag, so I'm just going to blow past it and assume y'all know that it's because it's integral to my point. Anyway, I volunteer a lot with an organization that does work with immigrants in Austin. One of the big things they stress during demonstrations is being there to support and amplify rather than make it your thing.

 

So, you're there to basically 1) give a bigger audience, 2) help keep people out that are trying to disrupt, and 2) redirect anyone from the media that might try to talk to you (they often will go to white people first, and they tell us to redirect to one of the organizers. It's Austin, and they always have permits, so we never have any issues with police, so it's not quite the same, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

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I don't know how to say this without it sounding like a self-important humblebrag, so I'm just going to blow past it and assume y'all know that it's because it's integral to my point. Anyway, I volunteer a lot with an organization that does work with immigrants in Austin. One of the big things they stress during demonstrations is being there to support and amplify rather than make it your thing.

 

So, you're there to basically 1) give a bigger audience, 2) help keep people out that are trying to disrupt, and 2) redirect anyone from the media that might try to talk to you (they often will go to white people first, and they tell us to redirect to one of the organizers. It's Austin, and they always have permits, so we never have any issues with police, so it's not quite the same, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

On the contrary, that sounds like a very relevant point based on your experience - kind of like when Ryan Sz posts about being a prison guard (which seems to be relevant often!). That's no humblebrag. That's germane to the topic.

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So, you're there to basically 1) give a bigger audience, 2) help keep people out that are trying to disrupt, and 2) redirect anyone from the media that might try to talk to you (they often will go to white people first, and they tell us to redirect to one of the organizers. It's Austin, and they always have permits, so we never have any issues with police, so it's not quite the same, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Maybe that's exactly it with the movie!

 

 

Because, especially knowing what we now know about Allison Williams, she wasn't just sticking up for her black boyfriend against racism, she was making it about herself, and was being combative, and to many black men that could be seen as DANGER! There is 100% a difference between calling out racism while sticking up for your POC friends and trying to pick a fight by cursing at a police officer.

 

 

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Yes she was feeling used. I am not saying that Maureen is the most perfect companion to be with. However, Joanne was only talking about feeling underappreciated UNTIL Mark started saying other stuff because he had felt that way. I could just as easily be misinterpretting things here, but the way that I took it was more like the power of suggestion. Like she isn't feeling satisfied so everything Mark is saying is really making sense despite the fact that it may not be true.

 

Also since the part where they sing "She cheated. Fuckin' cheated," all happens inside Mark's head after he gets hit, I have to throw all of that evidence out the window. She could have cheated on Mark but that is no evidence towards cheating on Joanne (DESPITE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE STAGE VERSION BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MOVIE Y'ALL.)

 

That's my point though, she brings it up, not him. (ITSV during "Rent" it is made even more explicit). My response is that you seem to be pinning a lot on Mark here. You said the were "fine" before he started suggesting stuff. My point is, she started the conversation and they weren't fine.

 

Mark is actually being pretty cool here. He was dumped by Maureen less than a month ago and now she's dating this new person. That doesn't say that she was cheating, but it is a pretty quick turnaround. Despite all that, Mark is willing to help out and it doesn't ever seem like he has any ulterior motives. Never once does Mark imply that he is only being nice to get Maureen back.

 

You also have to consider their animosity toward each other. Okay, maybe Mark is upset that this is the new person in Maureen's life. It's understandably if he's a bit put off by that, but if everything was on the up and up, why should Joanne have a problem with Mark? Mark isn't making any moves on Maureen, he's helping out, he's not causing a scene, and she's the one with Maureen. I also don't think Maureen is the type of person that would bad mouth Mark and then ask him to help her out. The explanation I came up with is that Maureen cheated on Mark with Joanne. Joanne, being a decent person, feels guilt over this so has to internally villainize Mark.

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That's my point though, she brings it up, not him. (ITSV during "Rent" it is made even more explicit). My response is that you seem to be pinning a lot on Mark here. You said the were "fine" before he started suggesting stuff. My point is, she started the conversation and they weren't fine.

 

Mark is actually being pretty cool here. He was dumped by Maureen less than a month ago and now she's dating this new person. That doesn't say that she was cheating, but it is a pretty quick turnaround. Despite all that, Mark is willing to help out and it doesn't ever seem like he has any ulterior motives. Never once does Mark imply that he is only being nice to get Maureen back.

 

You also have to consider their animosity toward each other. Okay, maybe Mark is upset that this is the new person in Maureen's life. It's understandably if he's a bit put off by that, but if everything was on the up and up, why should Joanne have a problem with Mark? Mark isn't making any moves on Maureen, he's helping out, he's not causing a scene, and she's the one with Maureen. I also don't think Maureen is the type of person that would bad mouth Mark and then ask him to help her out. The explanation I came up with is that Maureen cheated on Mark with Joanne. Joanne, being a decent person, feels guilt over this so has to internally villainize Mark.

I should have elaborated then cause I don't mean fine in the sense that everything was puppies and rainbows, but she didn't bring up the idea that Maureen was cheating. You can be dissatisfied but still not go to the thought of cheating.

 

In essence to me this scene seemed to go a little like this -

 

Joanne: Man Maureen is a flake and I feel used.

Mark: I know that feeling, bet she's cheating on you.

Joanne: Wait what - oh my god I guess she is.

 

Mark doesn't imply that but Collins does which I guess is the movie implying that to the audience? Cause Collins asks why he is going in the first place and Mark doesn't answer and so he just laughs and says that Mark is still in love with her. Which is SO easy to understand but I wouldn't exactly say he wasn't expecting something out of this whole thing. Then he sees Joanne and kinda stops in his tracks when he realizes that oh yeah Maureen would of course do that kinda thing.

 

I understand why Joanne would have those feelings towards him though, I'm guilty of being unkind to someone's ex because it brought up a bit of jealousy (that I'm very very not proud of) despite the fact that the BF in common was now with me! I wonder if maybe instead of talking bad about Mark she could have talked amazingly about Mark and maybe Joanne could have thought she was just a place holder for whenever Maureen wanted to go back to him.

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