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Episode 214 - Hercules: LIVE! (w/ Leslye Headland, Sasheer Zamata)

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34 minutes ago, Kothel said:

Correction, or at least dispute. I don't think the movie has any real Christian overtones. Nor do I think the rainbow to hell (or hel) is homophobia. As far as I could tell, the rainbow flag didn't become an LGBT symbol until 1978. Since this movie came out five years later, I don't know that it would be common knowledge to associate a rainbow with being gay (particularly if you're a very weird writer-director from Italy) in the early 80s the way it would be by the 90s. I think it's more likely a reference to Iris, one of the messenger gods who if I recall correctly traveled on a rainbow. 

Also, the word Hell has become Christian, but I think this is more of the writer misremembering Greek Mythology. In Greek mythology, if you're awesome you go to the Elysian Fields and if you were bad you go to Hades. Hel is from Norse mythology. There's a goddess named Hel, who presides over Hel where cowards and shitty people go. If you're awesome you go Valhalla and I think there was also some middle ground for people who were okay, but not heroic enough for Valhalla. So this is mixing of mythology. 

Incidentally, Jesus never talks about Hell in the bible. He uses Gehenna (where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth), which was also the name of the place in Jerusalem where they burned trash.  

 Hades is the God of the underworld and has become synonymous with his domain 

You would be judged by a council of three dead kings who were the judges of the dead, Aeacus, Minos, and Rhadamanthus. ( why they let fucking Minos on the tribunal I will never understand)

  If you were truly evil you wound up in the worst part of the underworld Tartarus.  (It should be noted that the very ancient Greeks actually viewed Tartarus as something much different than what the later classical Greeks did. To them it was a place apart from Hades and underneath it . It was the exclusive jail of the Titans ) .  There you would find classic punishments such as Tantulus stuck in a pool of water with a fruit tree hanging just above him that are both always out of his grasp ( He dared host the gods and then tricked them into eating human flesh).

 

But on the whole most people ended up in the bland Fields of Asphodel where your shade just floats around aimlessly for all eternity.

This of course assumes you were given the proper burial rights and had been given money to give to be ferried across the river Styx. If you didn't your shade would be forced to haunt the bank of the river for eternity. They could also return to earth and haunt people until they were properly buried.

But on the whole the shades had very little substance to them and needed to have a blood sacrifice to help them be more present because as mentioned the Fields of Asphodel kind of dulled their senses so they were just mindless wisps. Not sure if that applies to the dead who weren't buried right through?  I get the sense that the Greeks feared the dead but not TOO much.  

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Correction: Pandora's Jar was, indeed, a jar. 'Box' is a 16th century mistranslation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box#Etymology_of_the_%22box%22

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6 hours ago, Kothel said:

Correction, or at least dispute. I don't think the movie has any real Christian overtones. Nor do I think the rainbow to hell (or hel) is homophobia. As far as I could tell, the rainbow flag didn't become an LGBT symbol until 1978. Since this movie came out five years later, I don't know that it would be common knowledge to associate a rainbow with being gay (particularly if you're a very weird writer-director from Italy) in the early 80s the way it would be by the 90s. I think it's more likely a reference to Iris, one of the messenger gods who if I recall correctly traveled on a rainbow. 

Also, the word Hell has become Christian, but I think this is more of the writer misremembering Greek Mythology. In Greek mythology, if you're awesome you go to the Elysian Fields and if you were bad you go to Hades. Hel is from Norse mythology. There's a goddess named Hel, who presides over Hel where cowards and shitty people go. If you're awesome you go Valhalla and I think there was also some middle ground for people who were okay, but not heroic enough for Valhalla. So this is mixing of mythology. 

Incidentally, Jesus never talks about Hell in the bible. He uses Gehenna (where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth), which was also the name of the place in Jerusalem where they burned trash.  

But it certainly uses the Moses story and the Garden of Eden, which are part of the prequel books of Christianity, whether or not Jesus spoke of a literal hell in his part of the scripture.

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6 hours ago, gigi-tastic said:

 

I made a mistake and have no idea how to delete this please ignore my idiocy

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7 hours ago, Kothel said:

Correction, or at least dispute. I don't think the movie has any real Christian overtones. Nor do I think the rainbow to hell (or hel) is homophobia. As far as I could tell, the rainbow flag didn't become an LGBT symbol until 1978. Since this movie came out five years later, I don't know that it would be common knowledge to associate a rainbow with being gay (particularly if you're a very weird writer-director from Italy) in the early 80s the way it would be by the 90s. I think it's more likely a reference to Iris, one of the messenger gods who if I recall correctly traveled on a rainbow. 

Also, the word Hell has become Christian, but I think this is more of the writer misremembering Greek Mythology. In Greek mythology, if you're awesome you go to the Elysian Fields and if you were bad you go to Hades. Hel is from Norse mythology. There's a goddess named Hel, who presides over Hel where cowards and shitty people go. If you're awesome you go Valhalla and I think there was also some middle ground for people who were okay, but not heroic enough for Valhalla. So this is mixing of mythology. 

Incidentally, Jesus never talks about Hell in the bible. He uses Gehenna (where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth), which was also the name of the place in Jerusalem where they burned trash.  

So I don't know as much about Norse myth but from what I remember Hel is actually where most of the dead end up in Norse mythology. There are three places you could go: Valhalla if you were a warrior presided over by Odin and the Aesir gods , Folkvang a warm meadow that the other half of warriors ruled by Freya who was a part of the second clan of the gods the Vanir, and then Hel if you didn't die as a warrior. It sounds like a better version of the Fields of Asphodel . 

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I legitimately loved this movie when I was a kid.  It was somewhat shocking to see it with adult eyes and find out the production values were like a step and a half above Miami Connection.  I don't know if special effects models have ever looked more their actual size than they did in this movie.  Did they make extra small models to try and save money?  I'll use this movie with my son in place of walking uphill in the snow to and from school "back in my day" stories.  I had Hercules and he gets The Avengers.

Where does the Hera and Minos team rank in the pantheon of dumb villains?  Hercules appeared to be 100% content to plow fields for the rest of his life and was no threat to interfere with their plans or stop the spread of evil in any way.  All they had to do was not kill his mom with a giant robot bug and they'd have been fine.

 

 

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BIG omission to not mention that Sybil Danning (the woman with half her boobs covered) was also Stirba in Howling II, another HDTGM classic.

Also, it seems like this movie is a weird rip-off and amalgamation of virtually every popular fantasy adventure from the few years prior. I see obvious echoes of Clash of the Titans (1981), Excalibur (1981), and Conan the Barbarian (1982). This would fit pretty neatly with the usual Golan & Globus method: take the current popular thing and try to do it cheaply.

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Oh, FFS. Leslye Headland didn't actually think the movie was homophobic with the rainbow to hell. 

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During the bear fight scene, I laughed out loud because the guy in the bear suit seemed so Monty Python to me, and then I remembered, "Oh yeah, Scott of the Sahara":

HGtoPqJ.gif

Also, when somebody (Jason, maybe?) said that there were no robots in Ancient Greek times, I was like, uh, hello?

giphy.gif

Also also, HEY EVERYBODY! I haven't been around much this year so far, but I've missed the boards ... hope you've all been well :)

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57 minutes ago, The_Triple_Lindy said:

During the bear fight scene, I laughed out loud because the guy in the bear suit seemed so Monty Python to me, and then I remembered, "Oh yeah, Scott of the Sahara":

HGtoPqJ.gif

Also, when somebody (Jason, maybe?) said that there were no robots in Ancient Greek times, I was like, uh, hello?

giphy.gif

Also also, HEY EVERYBODY! I haven't been around much this year so far, but I've missed the boards ... hope you've all been well :)

Welcome back Triple Lindy! You were missed! Glad to see you back.

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I know this is not the kind of movie in which we should really be thinking too much about the plot, but what was the captain of the guard's plan at the start of the movie?

He hires a thief to break in to steal the sword in the stone and then states that he's going to use that to frame the king for stealing it then he is going to go murder the king in his sleep right after that. Where to start. First, how is this setting up the king? Is he going to start telling people that the king stole the sword and he was forced to kill him in his sleep as a result? Was the thief commonly known to be a servant of the king? If the sword didn't belong to the king, why would him stealing it be a problem? Also, if he wanted it why would he hire a thief to steal it when he has a whole army? If the king did own the sword why would he steal his own property and why would that be a big deal? If all the captain of the guard wanted was to kill the king and start a coup why get the sword first? Why not take over then you just own the sword? They seemed to take over the city pretty easy, and he wouldn't have the need to hire a the thief. I'm starting to think this was all a very last minute plan that he was making up on the fly.

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18 minutes ago, Cam Bert said:

I know this is not the kind of movie in which we should really be thinking too much about the plot, but what was the captain of the guard's plan at the start of the movie?

He hires a thief to break in to steal the sword in the stone and then states that he's going to use that to frame the king for stealing it then he is going to go murder the king in his sleep right after that. Where to start. First, how is this setting up the king? Is he going to start telling people that the king stole the sword and he was forced to kill him in his sleep as a result? Was the thief commonly known to be a servant of the king? If the sword didn't belong to the king, why would him stealing it be a problem? Also, if he wanted it why would he hire a thief to steal it when he has a whole army? If the king did own the sword why would he steal his own property and why would that be a big deal? If all the captain of the guard wanted was to kill the king and start a coup why get the sword first? Why not take over then you just own the sword? They seemed to take over the city pretty easy, and he wouldn't have the need to hire a the thief. I'm starting to think this was all a very last minute plan that he was making up on the fly.

I thought that it was at the Temple so it was the gods.

I assumed he was using it as an excuse to seize power and kill him. To be like " Look he stole the sacred sword! I had to kill him he was a sacrilegious monster who knows what he would use it for! " to get the rest of the army and populace on his side?

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2 hours ago, gigi-tastic said:

I thought that it was at the Temple so it was the gods.

I assumed he was using it as an excuse to seize power and kill him. To be like " Look he stole the sacred sword! I had to kill him he was a sacrilegious monster who knows what he would use it for! " to get the rest of the army and populace on his side?

That's what I thought but (let's face time is impossible to tell) he gets the sword and immediately goes to kill the king. There is no time for the people to realize the sword is missing or anything. He goes into full revolt based on his word and that alone. Something tells me this city may not have gotten the wisdom of Zeus or Athena.

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6 hours ago, gigi-tastic said:

I thought that it was at the Temple so it was the gods.

I assumed he was using it as an excuse to seize power and kill him. To be like " Look he stole the sacred sword! I had to kill him he was a sacrilegious monster who knows what he would use it for! " to get the rest of the army and populace on his side?

Okay home from work now and just rewatched the scene. A regular guard comes and says "the sacred sword has been stolen from the temple of Hera." The captain kills him and then Sybil Danning comes and says "let the soldiers think it was the king that violated the temple."

So, first, why would he kill the guard that told him the sword was stolen? Isn't that what Sybil Danning later wants as part of their plan. Second, why would the soldiers think it was the king anyway. When is a king sneaking into a temple to steal a sword. I still think the plan is rather half assed.

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Sorry to post so much in a row but now that I'm thinking about it, what was even the purpose of the sword? King Minos says it's the source of his power and yet he wields a flaming sword. Then when Hercules goes to grab it he says "no you'll awaken the phoenix! The volcano will erupt!" Yet the sword is in a golden rock on a platform Daedalus or somebody made. It's not something that's been there this entire time. It was made and put there. Is the gold rock the heart of the phoenix? Did 20 years prior Sybil Danning give King Minos the sword and he slew the Phoenix with it? Why is it on a platform near the pit if you can't take the sword out and it's purely ornamental? So many questions.

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15 hours ago, Cam Bert said:

Sorry to post so much in a row but now that I'm thinking about it, what was even the purpose of the sword? King Minos says it's the source of his power and yet he wields a flaming sword. Then when Hercules goes to grab it he says "no you'll awaken the phoenix! The volcano will erupt!" Yet the sword is in a golden rock on a platform Daedalus or somebody made. It's not something that's been there this entire time. It was made and put there. Is the gold rock the heart of the phoenix? Did 20 years prior Sybil Danning give King Minos the sword and he slew the Phoenix with it? Why is it on a platform near the pit if you can't take the sword out and it's purely ornamental? So many questions.

Yeah now that you being it up I thought his power was from the Phoenix? Maybe they used the sword to contain it?

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2 hours ago, gigi-tastic said:

Yeah now that you being it up I thought his power was from the Phoenix? Maybe they used the sword to contain it?

Hera's sword was forged from a fallen star. Stars are in space, it contains the Phoenix... did Chris Claremont rip off Hercules?

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On 5/26/2019 at 9:54 PM, The_Triple_Lindy said:

 

Also, when somebody (Jason, maybe?) said that there were no robots in Ancient Greek times, I was like, uh, hello?

giphy.gif

Also also, HEY EVERYBODY! I haven't been around much this year so far, but I've missed the boards ... hope you've all been well :)

BUBO! I legit loved THIS MOVIE as  a child. I read the novelization and everything. I for real wanted a Bubo and seeing this gif makes me realize... the effects were GARBAGE.

Did you know you can buy a Bubo online? I have seen them at Amazon. But, like, I want him to be my friend and talk to me.

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Personally, I thought the movie was pretty much flawless, and I simply can’t fathom anyone’s issue with it, but... if there was one thing that I simply couldn’t wrap my head around, it was why the Hell King Minos would send Daedalus home. I totally get that up to that point Daedalus’ mechanized monstrosities have had a less than stellar track record physically stopping Herc, but you may still want to rely on her ingenuity and expertise. Herc has pretty much beaten every single obstacle you’ve thrown at him, so maybe now isn’t the time to get cocky.

That being said, what really bothers me is the reason Minos gives Daedalus for no longer requiring her services is that Hercules is about to enter his island labyrinth and he considers him pretty much doomed. Now, I don’t know about you, but if I were Daedalus, I would be fuck-ing pissed! You mean to tell me that I put all this work into creating killer, misfit toys for you when you had a surefire death trap waiting here for him the entire time? What’s even the fucking point? Why are you dragging me out of my chaos dimension? If you were so bloody confident in you hoity-toity maze of murder, then your entire evil scheme might as well have been “wait here, do nothing.”

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Speaking of dumbass decisions destined to bite you in the ass, one of my favorite moments was when an archer takes aim at baby Hercules in his boat, and Minos stays his hand insisting that, “The river will take care of it.” I mean, yeah, but if it’s really that important to you, don’t you want to be sure?

The best part is that the movie then cuts over to the boat spinning sluggishly in what appears to be an extremely shallow stream. It actually looks like it might be caught on the bank of the opposite shore. I mean, I’m not advocating for infanticide, but for the price of a cheap pair of boots you could easily wade on over there and take care of this thing once and for all. 

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23 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Speaking of dumbass decisions destined to bite you in the ass, one of my favorite moments was when an archer takes aim at baby Hercules in his boat, and Minos stays his hand insisting that, “The river will take care of it.” I mean, yeah, but if it’s really that important to you, don’t you want to be sure?

The best part is that the movie then cuts over to the the boat sluggishly spinning in the extremely shallow stream, seemingly caught on the bank of the opposite shore. I mean, I’m not advocating for infanticide, but for the price of a cheap pair of boots you could easily wade on over there and take care of this thing once and for all. 

In Greek Soldier #4's defense the river would have taken care of baby Hercules if not for Zeus's puppet handed intervention. He might have known that the river leads to a giant waterfall and thought to himself "Do I really want my best archer to have to live with the guilt of murdering a baby?" Imagine the next time they are ransacking a  city and the archer pulls back to take aim at the opposing General only to hear a baby crying from a burning building nearby. Suddenly his conscience kicks in and he feels a pang of guilt for murdering an innocent baby all those years prior. That split second of hesitation and doubt is the entire turning point of that battle. Greek Soldier #4 knew that could a possibility and decided to let nature take care of that baby.

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1 minute ago, Cam Bert said:

In Greek Soldier #4's defense the river would have taken care of baby Hercules if not for Zeus's puppet handed intervention. He might have known that the river leads to a giant waterfall and thought to himself "Do I really want my best archer to have to live with the guilt of murdering a baby?" Imagine the next time they are ransacking a  city and the archer pulls back to take aim at the opposing General only to hear a baby crying from a burning building nearby. Suddenly his conscience kicks in and he feels a pang of guilt for murdering an innocent baby all those years prior. That split second of hesitation and doubt is the entire turning point of that battle. Greek Soldier #4 knew that could a possibility and decided to let nature take care of that baby.

Yeah, but according to the movie, killing babies is actually a reward and (maybe) a step toward promotion. I feel like Greek Soldier #4 missed the opportunity to become Greek Soldier #3...

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4 hours ago, Elektra Boogaloo said:

BUBO! I legit loved THIS MOVIE as  a child. I read the novelization and everything. I for real wanted a Bubo and seeing this gif makes me realize... the effects were GARBAGE.

Did you know you can buy a Bubo online? I have seen them at Amazon. But, like, I want him to be my friend and talk to me.

Somehow, "Amazon" is the perfect name of a place to buy Greek mythology stuff.

Also, how dare you besmirch Harryhausen so casually! My childhood demands satisfaction!

tumblr_nxzq8piiqK1u7gt7ro1_400.gif

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3 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

Personally, I thought the movie was pretty much flawless, and I simply can’t fathom anyone’s issue with it, but... if there was one thing that I simply couldn’t wrap my head around, it was why the Hell King Minos would send Daedalus home. I totally get that up to that point Daedalus’ mechanized monstrosities have had a less than stellar track record physically stopping Herc, but you may still want to rely on her ingenuity and expertise. Herc has pretty much beaten every single obstacle you’ve thrown at him, so maybe now isn’t the time to get cocky.

That being said, what really bothers me is the reason Minos gives Daedalus for no longer requiring her services is that Hercules is about to enter his island labyrinth and he considers him pretty much doomed. Now, I don’t know about you, but if I were Daedalus, I would be fuck-ing pissed! You mean to tell me that I put all this work into creating killer, misfit toys for you when you had a surefire death trap waiting here for him the entire time? What’s even the fucking point? Why are you dragging me out of my chaos dimension? If you were so bloody confident in you hoity-toity maze of murder, then your entire evil scheme might as well have been “wait here, do nothing.”

I know this has been mentioned, but since you bring up Daedalus again, I don't understand why they did what they did with Daedalus' character other than they had a sexy disco iguana goddess costume and had to use it because of union rules or something. 

But also, does anyone else think that they missed a huge opportunity, since they were dealing with King Minos and the labyrinth, to bring in the minotaur? Since aside from trapping Daedalus and Icarus in the labyrinth, Minos' whole deal was that he controlled the minotaur but it ended up killing and eating him in the end. Daedalus created the minotaur, so it could've even been one of those stupid robots.

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I have to admit, I was kind of annoyed when Hercules requested Circe to expend her powers to just tie a rope, but I felt better when she made him exert the extra effort to throw them both across the galaxy just for her to tell him that she can’t help him and he has to continue the journey on his own. Touché, Circe.

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