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The term jellicle comes from the T.S. Eliot poems (and he can go fuck himself). There is CATS fandom controversy over its origins. I quote the sources from a Cats wiki. Playbill: The National Theatre Magazine, April 30, 1991. Quote: "Eliot heard this word [Jellicle] from his young niece, who sounded as if she were saying "Jellicle cat" whenever she called for her "dear little cat" and "Pollicle dog" whenever she called for her "poor little puppy." The Letters of T. S. Eliot Volume 7: 1934–1935. Faber & Faber, May 30, 2017. Quote: "TSE's secretary replied, 25 June 1959: 'Mr Eliot has asked me to write and say that he does not wish to copyright the word "jellicle" and is quite content that it should be used without acknowledgement, so long as its use conforms to the definition of Jellicle Cats given in his poem about them. And jellicle, by the way, is not a diminutive of "angelical" but is a diminutive of "Jellylorum" which was the name of a cat of that description which Mr Eliot once owned.'" The movie has Judi Dench say “dear little cat” so they are siding with the Playbill explanation. But I think it’s bullshit because even if you do a crazy British accent with a lisp I still can’t get from dear little to jellicle. I think Eliot just used his own cat’s nickname. But I tend to think this because I do not like these poems and think it’s all dumb and people pretend all his poems are great because they had to read PRUFROCK in school. Eta I agree with Cameron’s theory about self actualization in the context of the film and, probably the musical. I haven’t seen it. But I also think the film and the musical give this weird word significance just because it came from the pen of a Pulitzer Prize winner. And it’s just s stupid thing.

I am really excited to talk about this. The commercial for CATS used to terrify me as a child. Then when the movie came out I paid $20 (!) for it. Why? Because I knew HDTGM would cover it. (And actually, in hindsight, I think the makeup and costumes that scared me so much as a kid were a plus for the musical. Because if you went, at least you knew they put that amount of effort into it.) Then I managed to actually miss the live stream. The PFT opening made me happy. Too bad he wasn’t there for the livestream either. I want to talk about Ian Mckellen. I saw an interview with him when they asked him about the cat school. I believe it was Stephen Colbert. Because apparently the actors had to go learn the cat movement, which Paul mentions. And McKellen straight up was like “oh I didn’t go to that. I’m Ian McKellen.” I would bet June’s feeling that it came and went is because some actors did not go. And when I watched the film, he and Jennifer Hudson were my faves. Hudson is obviously for her singing. McKellen isn’t a great singer. But I still liked watching him. I would posit that the “cat school” made people worse. Interesting when Jason says he thought kids invented Cats, because it is based on children’s poems by TS Eliot. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Possum's_Book_of_Practical_Cats It is what an adult thinks kids want.

I'm not sure that this was mentioned in the episode but -- there actually is a Heaviside Layer. The Kennelly-Heaviside Layer, to be exact. Apparently this layer is reflective of radio waves, and bouncing these waves off the sky makes it possible for them to reach beyond the horizon. I suppose this could mean that sending a Jellicle to the Heaviside Layer for a new life could literally mean just sending them into the stratosphere so that they'll land somewhere far away, thereby beginning a "new" life? The layer was discovered by British physicists in the 1920s, which is around the time Eliot started writing poetry, so odds are this was a word he overheard at a tea party sometime, and 20 years later, he used it in his cat poems. EDIT TO ADD: the dumbest thing about this is that it was named for the guy who discovered it -- Oliver Heaviside.

I'll admit that I like "Prufrock" -- not because it's a particularly great poem, which it isn't, but because that post-war nihilistic stuff is what I most enjoy reading. It's basically the only thing Eliot wrote that I ever enjoyed reading ("Wasteland"? More like "waste" of time, amirite?). I put Eliot in the same category as Matthew Arnold -- their poems are pretentious and melodramatic and pedantic because they're critics on top of being poets, so all their work has the air of self-gratification and certainty in how brilliant they are. Their poems are so much "uncontainable expression of self" and more "flexing what I know about good poetry." Eliot reminds me of what I remember someone saying about Axl Rose during the Use Your Illusion records -- every song has to do everything that that Axl Rose knows how to do as a musician, just to show that he knows about great music.

I tend to agree. I think, because of Eliot’s erudition and the density and scope of the allusions found in his work, that there’s a bit of literary FOMO - now and from his contemporaries. I always felt, particularly in college, there was a fear that if you admitted that you didn’t like him, you were opening yourself to accusations of “not getting it” regardless of whether or not your criticisms had any merit. (Personally, I’m more of an e e cummings man.) But, yeah, with these inviolable literary genius types, there always tends to be a move to over analyze their work — even when all signs point to it just being something they threw together on a lazy afternoon.

There was a lot of confusion about what Cats is supposed to be about, but per the great theater director Harold Prince, Andrew Lloyd Webber already told us what it's about. It's about cats.

I've never left any comments, though I've been a listener for years. I have to say, this Cats episode is one of the best Paul, June, & Jason have ever done. Part of this is the source material and the contempt it breeds-- I watched Cats with a Discord group at the beginning of the lockdown and my attention span died within five minutes and never recovered-- but part of this is due to the agitation and anxiety of doing having virtual discussion of a baffling and craptastic movie (and cat-tastic 'classic' musical). Jason seems on edge, and you know what? I feel ya friend. It's hard not to be on edge. Who wants jellicle b.s. with the isolation and the awful feeling one gets checking the news? T.S. Eliot wrote silly cat poems, Andrew Lloyd Webber adapted them into a stubborn and tiring musical, we were all subjected to a tiresome film adaptation with CGI-negated genitals, and we're all enjoying a collective sigh of relief-- from Cats and a very un-musical year. Thanks guys! Love this podcast and am really enjoying this discussion as I telework and process endless paperwork. Hang in there, and thanks for the collective, cathartic "Fuck Cats!"

Bumping to keep this in the radar. Currently on Amazon. ”Big” name actors with Troma-esque special effects. Also the drug company is the building from Bio-Dome.

As a musical theatre actor and someone who went to school for musical theatre I wanna point out two things. 1. Andrew Lloyd Webber set a book of poems by TS Elliot to music so most of the lyrics are not his at all. That is why there is no story because it was originally just going to be a song cycle of poems set to music that eventually became a show. 2. I think it’s important to point out that Cats is more of a dance show than it is a singing show. This is why it doesn’t work as well in a movie platform. The real power of the show comes from the incredible dancers on stage dancing and doing great physical work and tricks and that is what makes it so compelling in person. That does not translate well when the whole movie is being done with motion capture. I you think of the show more in the sense of a cirque show that has always been more the vibes to me. More about the spectacle less about the over all story telling.

To answer Paul's question about why Judi Dench's character is called Old Deuteronomy and not something more whimsical, I think it has to do with her role in the Musical, where she is portrayed as the wise magistrate of the feline world. (And, to clarify briefly, we don't actually know that she doesn't have a silly name. Explicitly, we are told all Cats have three names. Implicitly, we are to infer that these names are: the name they are given by a human, the name they are given by other cats, and the name they give themselves. For all we know, her name is actually Wimblewuzzle or something equally absurd.) Anyway, Old Deuteronomy is a name that was given to the wisest cat in T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats." As a poet, T.S. Eliot was known for his use dense imagery and use of classical, often obscure, sometimes contradictory, allusions. The Book of Deuteronomy, of course, is the fifth book of the Torah, and is a series of sermons where Moses reminds the Hebrew people of where they came from, who they are (through their laws), and where they are going. The Shema Yisrael in Deuteronomy 6 helps to further solidify the Jewish identity. In Cats, Dench's Deuteronomy plays a similar role. As she guides Victoria (and us) through the world of Cats. She tells us what cats should strive to be (jellicle), what they should avoid being (dogs), and where they hope to go (The Heavyside Layer).

I’m still listening, so maybe they get to it, but here’s what a jellicle cat is: A jellicle cat is a cat who is destined to fulfill a specific purpose - railroad cat, theater cat, kitchen cat, etc. Even Macavity fulfills a role as an evil cat. To put that in human terms, Paul Scheer is a human being. Paul Scheer the human has free will and can be anything he chooses to be, but the “jellicle” version of Paul Scheer might be be Actor/Comedian Paul Scheer. In other words, that identity is the fulfillment of his destiny. Essentially, the cats are striving for self-actualization and eventual reincarnation. To use Paul as an example again, “Actor/Comedian Paul Scheer” might be his jellicle identity, but to qualify for the Heavyside Layer, Paul would have to be the BEST Actor/Comedian Paul Scheer he can be. Note: this doesn’t mean he has to be the best actor/comedian out of all actor/comedians, but the best actor/comedian *Paul Scheer* he can be. If you were to put it in Buddhist terms (which you 100% should), the Heavyside Layer would be like attaining Nirvana, and being a jellicle would be the equivalent of a bodhisattva - in other words, the step just before full enlightenment. As for the plot, Victoria is an abandoned kitten. She is young and is just learning the nature of cats. She learns that on that particular night, one cat will be chosen for reincarnation as a reward for being the fullest expression of their specific cat type. Macavity, a bad cat, is up for reincarnation as well, because he is the fullest embodiment an evil cat. Macavity kidnaps all his competition, so when the choice is made, he will be the only option available. Eventually, the other nominees are freed, Macavity is stopped, and the Grizabella the Glamour cat is chosen - proving that, ultimately, its more about who you are on the inside rather than what you are on the outside. At the end, Dench tells Victoria that she too might one day become a jellicle cat - presumably a cat of love and kindness, as it is through her heart that the others are finally able to see the Grizabella for what she truly is.

Ok HDTGM family.... I'm not crazy right?! Sir Ian was totally conjuring Gandalf for this moment. Audio here: https://i.imgur.com/qxugj6e.mp4