EPISODE 126 - The Star Wars Holiday Special

[PeterSheldon 49]

New spoof to celebrate Life Day.

[Lando 2019]

I saw TFA over the holiday break and I did really enjoy it. I had set my expectations low, even though the reviews were pretty positive. Most of the negative stuff about it is true. I thought Gleeson felt miscast as Hux and couldn't convince me that he was a bad man, Kylo seemed underwhelming (wasn't part of the reason of what made Vader menacing was that he had such a gift with the force, but I never got that impression with Kylo. He seemed unskilled with the force) and the story felt a tad derivative of the original trilogy. However, unlike the prequels it had that dirty feeling of the originals and there were no annoying cutesy aliens that were obviously aimed at kids and that was enough to bring me back into the galaxy far away and make my inner kid happy.

 

I have said George Lucas should have just stuck to ripping off John Ford Westerns and Kurosawa Samurai movies, he's much much better when he isn't trying so hard to be original. Clearly he gives into his own dark side of the merchandising, but prying the series out of his hands is all for the better. I have always hoped that they would make a "Seven Jedi" movie, but I don't think it will ever happen.

 

 

 

Did anyone else feel like if anyone on the Millennium Falcon should have had a son that was mad at them it should have been Chewie? I am hoping that episode 8 has an emo Lumpy. Maybe we will find out that Lumpy got alopecia and became Snoke.

 

 

[FisterRoboto 7499]

I saw TFA over the holiday break and I did really enjoy it. I had set my expectations low, even though the reviews were pretty positive. Most of the negative stuff about it is true. I thought Gleeson felt miscast as Hux and couldn't convince me that he was a bad man, Kylo seemed underwhelming (wasn't part of the reason of what made Vader menacing was that he had such a gift with the force, but I never got that impression with Kylo. He seemed unskilled with the force) and the story felt a tad derivative of the original trilogy. However, unlike the prequels it had that dirty feeling of the originals and there were no annoying cutesy aliens that were obviously aimed at kids and that was enough to bring me back into the galaxy far away and make my inner kid happy.

Kylo isn't fully trained in the Force yet. That's why his emotions control him. They actually created a complex character that is struggling with the two sides of the Force fighting inside of him. He's powerful in the Force, but he lacks control. He wants to be Darth Vader, but he's afraid he never will have as much power or control over that power as Vader. I think he's an incredible character that is extremely conflicted, which is what most Star Wars fans say they want, although their response to his character has pretty much proven that they would rather have a badass instead.

 

Unrelated: kind of bummed that there's not a new ep today, but I'm going to chalk it up to a combination of the holiday and June's birthday (happy birthday to June!).

[Cameron H. 23786]

The thing is though this was about the heroes, not the villains, similar to New Hope. I can understand where they will be built upon in the sequels because at this point Abrams is trying to get these new protagonists across to us.

 

With all due respect, I kind of agree and disagree with you on this. I felt TFA almost gave us too much of the villains and I would have liked more Rey, Finn, and Poe (by far my favorite parts of the movie). To me, A New Hope is about three unlikely companions blundering into a bad situation for which none of them are prepared. In that movie, Vader and Tarkin are more like vague threats, which I feel makes them far more frightening. In fact, aside from Leia, none of them even has any direct contact with either Vader or Tarkin in that movie. I feel like a good analogy for V and T is like the shark in Jaws--you know he's out there, but seeing less of him makes him more effective. In my opinion, they gave away too much too soon. I would have liked Ren to have been more of just an evil presence. And while I think, done this way, the event that happens at the end might have felt too derivative of Empire--although, why should that have stopped them at this point?--had they not revealed that relationship when they did, and left it as a reveal on the catwalk, I think it would have been more effective.

 

As it stands, I feel like I have a pretty good idea where the trilogy is going. Yes, it will be different than the OT, but I feel, as far as the main story beats are concerned, there are very few surprises in store. I fervently hope I'm wrong, but at this moment, that's the way I feel.

 

And they idea of

struggling with the Light Side just felt so stupid to me. I get what they were trying to do and turn the whole thing on its head, but it just didn't ring true for me. This is kind of an unfair comparison, but it would be like a person who wants to be seen as a bad dude, trying to get in with the tough kids, trying to decide whether or not he's going to donate money to a children's charity. Being tempted to do the wrong thing is relatable; struggling to do the right thing just doesn't make any sense to me. Aside from losing face with your thuggish friends, there's simply no risk. It just makes him come off as such a freaking loser--therefore making him, in my opinion anyway, not very scary.

 

 

However, I did like the movie, and I'm very much looking forward to Rogue One because I have a feeling that the Anthology movies are going to be a lot more connected to the main trilogy than we've been led to believe. For instance, I think

the mystery of Rey's parents is going to be revealed there first. And I definitely do NOT think (hope...) it's Luke Skywalker. I think the clues are in the movie, and if my guess is correct, also in the Rebels and Clone Wars cartoons.

 

 

But I'm glad everyone seems to love it, as any world with more Star Wars movies (even just "good" Star Wars movies) is definitely a world I want to live in.

[Lando 2019]

But Kylo, who had at least some training with the force was out forced by Rey, who stumbles across her abilities with ZERO training in it and is out dueled by newbie saber duelist Finn. It just seems to undermine his abilities.

[Lando 2019]

And they idea of

struggling with the Light Side just felt so stupid to me. I get what they were trying to do and turn the whole thing on its head, but it just didn't ring true for me. This is kind of an unfair comparison, but it would be like a person who wants to be seen as a bad dude, trying to get in with the tough kids, trying to decide whether or not he's going to donate money to a children's charity. Being tempted to do the wrong thing is relatable; struggling to do the right thing just doesn't make any sense to me. Aside from losing face with your thuggish friends, there's simply no risk. It just makes him come off as such a freaking loser--therefore making him, in my opinion anyway, not very scary.

 

 

In the originals, Vader struggled with it a little bit. At least when it came to his family. After all, he showed that he had some good in him by killing Palpatine.

 

For instance, I think

the mystery of Rey's parents is going to be revealed there first. And I definitely do NOT think (hope...) it's Luke Skywalker. I think the clues are in the movie, and if my guess is correct, also in the Rebels and Clone Wars cartoons.

 

 

 

 

I think just the fact they chose an actress that looks a lot like Nathalie Portman says that she has to be a granddaughter of Amidala and unless Leia unknowingly had a 2nd child I think it has to be Luke.

 

 

[FisterRoboto 7499]

 

But Kylo, who had at least some training with the force was out forced by Rey, who stumbles across her abilities with ZERO training in it and is out dueled by newbie saber duelist Finn. It just seems to undermine his abilities.

 

 

He had also just been blasted by Chewie's bowcaster, and she puts him on the defensive for, like, 15 seconds before the world splits and breaks up their fight (after he had dominated the rest of the fight). She's obviously a skilled fighter, as they show the first time Finn sees her on Jakku. I also have a hunch that she's had some training at a young age that has been blocked from her memory somehow, so her "awakening" is really just her remembering how to use it, which really starts out more like muscle memory than anything else.

 

 

And they idea of

struggling with the Light Side just felt so stupid to me. I get what they were trying to do and turn the whole thing on its head, but it just didn't ring true for me. This is kind of an unfair comparison, but it would be like a person who wants to be seen as a bad dude, trying to get in with the tough kids, trying to decide whether or not he's going to donate money to a children's charity. Being tempted to do the wrong thing is relatable; struggling to do the right thing just doesn't make any sense to me. Aside from losing face with your thuggish friends, there's simply no risk. It just makes him come off as such a freaking loser--therefore making him, in my opinion anyway, not very scary.

 

 

I actually liked this a lot and see it more as he's doing what he thinks is right. For him, it's all about power, and he sees his grandfather's power as his birthright. He likely sees his mother and uncle as cowards/traitors who turned their back on their father's legacy. His father was the one thing keeping him connected to the light side, which is why he had to kill him in order to fully embrace the dark side, which is what he sees as his true legacy. But at the same time, he's worried that he's not worth of this legacy, which is why Rey sees that his biggest fear is that he will never be as powerful as Vader. It's this fear, combined with the love for his father and his desperate desire to be on the same level as his grandfather, that creates his internal conflict.

 

Or, at least, that's how I read those characters. We won't really know until the other movies come out, but that's the impression I have at the moment.

 

[DanEngler 5249]

But Kylo, who had at least some training with the force was out forced by Rey, who stumbles across her abilities with ZERO training in it and is out dueled by newbie saber duelist Finn. It just seems to undermine his abilities.

 

1. Kylo Ren was fighting a lightsaber duel after being shot in the gut by Chewie's bowcaster, which was established earlier in the film as a pretty terrible thing.

 

2. Some people are naturally skilled in the ways of the Force. Rey could easily have been one of the Force-adept children headed to the Jedi temple before Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side/started recruiting the Knights of Ren/Luke disbanded the temple and went into self-imposed exile/Rey was left on Jakku for her own protection.

 

3. Out-dueled? Finn was virtually dead at the end of his fight with Kylo Ren.

 

[Lando 2019]

 

1. Kylo Ren was fighting a lightsaber duel after being shot in the gut by Chewie's bowcaster, which was established earlier in the film as a pretty terrible thing.

 

2. Some people are naturally skilled in the ways of the Force. Rey could easily have been one of the Force-adept children headed to the Jedi temple before Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side/started recruiting the Knights of Ren/Luke disbanded the temple and went into self-imposed exile/Rey was left on Jakku for her own protection.

 

3. Out-dueled? Finn was virtually dead at the end of his fight with Kylo Ren.

 

 

 

 

1. & 3. I was being hyperbolic. My point was that Fin never touches a light saber and never demonstrates touching any weapon other than a blaster, and then he picks it up and is able to go toe to toe with someone who uses one all the time AND has the force. I would be willing to bet that if you took someone that knew how to fence and shot them in a non fatal manner and then handed me a sword they would still handily beat me even without psychic powers. At least you could say that Rey demonstrated the ability to fight with her stick. This, however is more of a problem of mine with lot of movies in general though and I think it's sort of lazy writing.

 

2. Point taken, and we will just have to wait and see. However again I think it undermines Kylo to say that someone who has at minimum, not used the force in a long time except to mind control a trooper is able to go toe-to-toe with him. If she is very gifted in the force, then that probably means that he is just average, but in a world with very few gifted in the force he stands above them. I would be okay with that, I just feel like it makes him a much less menacing villain. Edit, however I think it could make him a more interesting villain if the reason that he turned to the dark side was because he felt inadequate among the other trainees, even though he comes from greatness. But I didn't get that impression.

 

 

 

Edit: I keep switching off between calling him Fin and Finn.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

In the originals, Vader struggled with it a little bit. At least when it came to his family. After all, he showed that he had some good in him by killing Palpatine.

 

Fair enough. I guess I'm really hung up on the fact he says the line, "I will not be seduced" which seems like a really lousy way of saying that.

 

 

 

I think just the fact they chose an actress that looks a lot like Nathalie Portman says that she has to be a granddaughter of Amidala and unless Leia unknowingly had a 2nd child I think it has to be Luke.

 

 

 

I think that's a total red herring. I'll give you all my speculation if you want so uncover the "spoiler" tag at your own discretion. This will probably be long. Hopefully I can articulate it well...

 

 

 

 

In my opinion, there can't be a Star Wars without a Kenobi. Skywalker and Kenobi are two sides of the same coin. I agree with Dan that she's had some training, but as Kenobi his mentor/father figure, I feel like Luke would have a familial-type bond with his granddaughter. This also explains why Rey would hear Obi-wan's voice in her vision. From what I read, they originally got the guy who does Kenobi's voice in the cartoons to shout "Rey!" but were able to get Ewan McGregor at the last minute. Why go to that much trouble? What connection would she have with him? If it is just because he is a Force ghost, it could just as well have been Yoda or Anakin.

 

Ridley also said that a big clue to her heritage comes from where we find her at the beginning of the movie. Sure, Luke was hid for his protection, but Obi-Wan was there too.

 

Besides the obvious things (her outfit and accent), there are other clues as well:

 

* Han often refers to her as "the girl," and while he treats her with respect, he does not treat her like a family member. He was never that close to Obi-Wan and I think there would be a kind of irony with him taking to the granddaughter of a person he once dismissed as "a crazy, old man."

 

* Kanata tells her to stop looking backward and to look forward, to which Rey say, "Luke." It seems weird that "looking backward" and "forward" would lead to the same person.

 

Here's my totally unsubstantiated theory, based a lot on the prequels (sorry, guys) and the cartoon, but since they are things we know to still be cannon, it's what we have to work with.

 

-- Qui-Gon says he was a part of a prophecy that says he will train the Jedi that will bring balance to the force, and assumes that it is Skywalker, but what if it's Kenobi? (This one I don't remember exactly, so correct me if any one remembers better than I)

 

--In the Clone Wars, we find out that Kenobi had a brief affair with, Satine--the ruler of Mandalore. We don't know exactly how far the relationship went, but when they reunite, he tells her he would have left the Jedi Order to be with her, so we can guess it was pretty serious. Just maybe they consummated that relationship and they had a little girl. Satine keeps this information to herself knowing that Obi-Wan would quit the Jedi to be with them. There is even a scene in the series where Obi-Wan, suspecting Anakin and Padme's relationship, is about to have "the talk" with him, but Anakin brushes him away.

 

 

--In Rebels, there is a character named, Sabine (possibly a variation of "Satine") Wren (coincidence?)--a young, Mandalorian girl of just about the right age. She is also a character that is rumored to make the live action jump in the upcoming Rogue One. She is not a Jedi, but she has fighting skills and a lot of Rey's characteristics.

 

--Also in Rebels, it is hinted of a future romance between her and Ezra Bridger--a Force sensitive kid. I propose, since they would be about Luke's age during A New Hope, maybe even a little younger, they eventually have a child and name her Rey.

 

--In the comics, Luke is also shown to be in possession of Obi-Wan's journal. It's possible that Luke learns of Sabine and Ezra through that. He tracks them down and finds they have a young, Force sensitive child--the granddaughter of some one he cared about--and wants to pay Kenobi back for training him. Then, when Kylo Ren and his knights kill off the New Jedi Order, Luke takes this child that means so much to him and does for her what Kenobi did for him when he was a baby--exiles her to a desert planet.

 

 

Sorry, for the bullet points. I'm not sure if that made it easier or harder to follow my train of thought. However, I went into my second viewing of TFA with this in mind, and it made it so much better for me. I'm not saying it's true or not. I guess we'll just have to wait and find out. I think Abrams is straying away from the prequels, but I also don't think he's ignoring them either. I think we'll find out, eventually, that all Star Wars, across all media, are all going to be related. Which makes sense from a business standpoint. If you want the WHOLE story, I guess you'll just have to pay for it...

 

(Sorry, for any typos. I'm rushing to get back to work and don't have time to proofread)

[FisterRoboto 7499]

 

 

This also explains why Rey would hear Obi-wan's voice in her vision. From what I read, they originally got the guy who does Kenobi's voice in the cartoons to shout "Rey!" but were able to get Ewan McGregor at the last minute. Why go to that much trouble? What connection would she have with him? If it is just because he is a Force ghost, it could just as well have been Yoda or Anakin.

 

 

 

They actually cut up Alec Guinness saying "afraid" and isolated the "Rey" part of it, and then overlaid Ewan McGregor's voice.

 

I think your argument is probably the most compelling one I've heard for her being a Kenobi so far. Many of the others have been incredibly superficial, but I could actually see yours panning out. I'm not sure which way I want it to go, but I'm excited to see how it all plays out!

 

 

[Lando 2019]

Fair enough. I guess I'm really hung up on the fact he says the line, "I will not be seduced" which seems like a really lousy way of saying that.

 

I agree, it was handled in a clunky manner. Personally, I think it would be more interesting if Kylo thought that he was doing something good. He was establishing peace through order in the universe and believed that the dark side wasn't dark just misunderstood and was using the dark powers for a vision of good. However, Star Wars has always been about a blatant good side and a blatant bad side and I think it would be hard to insert that kind of fine tuning into it now.

 

 

I think that's a total red herring. I'll give you all my speculation if you want so uncover the "spoiler" tag at your own discretion. This will probably be long. Hopefully I can articulate it well...

 

Very good theory. It had crossed my mind, but I haven't seen any of the clone wars stuff yet so was unaware of some of that back story. I probably won't get another chance to rewatch TFA until it comes out for home video.

 

And I have heard people saying that Finn has known parents too.

 

 

But given how few African Americans there are in the universe, odds are it's either Lando or Mace Windu.

 

[Lando 2019]

I heard that Snoke's campaign slogan was "Make The Empire Great Again"

[DanEngler 5249]

2. Point taken, and we will just have to wait and see. However again I think it undermines Kylo to say that someone who has at minimum, not used the force in a long time except to mind control a trooper is able to go toe-to-toe with him. If she is very gifted in the force, then that probably means that he is just average, but in a world with very gifted in the force he stands above them. I would be okay with that, I just feel like it makes him a much less menacing villain. Edit, however I think it could make him a more interesting villain if the reason that he turned to the dark side was because he felt inadequate among the other trainees, even though he comes from greatness. But I didn't get that impression.

 

I feel like they made a point of emphasizing his fear of inadequacy, of never living up to Vader's legacy, of his incomplete training in a universe where the Jedi (and the Sith) are essentially myths. It makes sense that the inciting event for the destruction of the Jedi temple was Ben Solo's ineptitude and frustration.

 

I grew up pretty Star Wars-agnostic and, while I hate what J.J. Abrams has done with Star Trek, I'm super excited about these films and the way they break with tradition in order to build a richer world. Stormtroopers aren't clones or mindless automata (Finn/Phasma/the guys who were all NOPE when Kylo Ren was throwing a tantrum.) The villain isn't an all-powerful, black-clad cipher but an ego-driven dropout wielding an ineptly-crafted lightsaber and a mask designed to make him seem imposing. A hero who isn't part of a self-flagellating priestly order but a conflicted human being trying to restrain power she doesn't yet understand. (You could feel that Rey was on the precipice of killing Kylo Ren until the planet started disintegrating. No long meditation about surrendering to the Dark Side here.)

 

Honestly, my biggest concern is whether Snoke is just another Palpatine—30 feet tall or otherwise—but, as I said upthread, I trust Rian Johnson unequivocally.*

 

* Also, I trust his girlfriend Karina Longworth (who has an amazing podcast called You Must Remember This) would kill him in his sleep if he neutered Rey.

 

[PlanBFromOuterSpace 3138]

I heard that Snoke's campaign slogan was "Make The Empire Great Again"

He totally managed to build a wall around an entire planet!

[jarrycanada 2483]

Hey, Dan when does baby new year post another exciting new episode of HDTGM?

 

[Lando 2019]

He totally managed to build a wall around an entire planet!

 

And he made the rebels pay for it.

[FisterRoboto 7499]

I think you've gone too far this time, jarrycanada. That shit will haunt my dreams.

[Lando 2019]

Yeah Dan, I too am excited for the next episode and in spite of my criticisms of TFA I did really enjoy it.

 

Has anyone seen the Samurai movie Sword of Doom? I think that this could be adapted into a very interesting Jedi movie. I had read that it was planned on being the first in a trilogy, but the 2nd and 3rd never got made.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

But given how few African Americans there are in the universe, odds are it's either Lando or Mace Windu.

 

 

I would hate for that to happen. I think, and here's some wild speculation (and I'm probably wrong),

I could see Finn being Luke's son. Just because he's Black, doesn't mean both his parents were. I could see a scenario where Kylo Ren, when slaughtering the Jedi, stole Luke's baby. It would explain why, of all the Stormtroopers, Ren seems to have a "connection" to this one trooper in particular, and why he would call him a "traitor"--not a traitor to the First Order, but to the Skywalker bloodline. It would also explain Kanata telling him, "You HAVE a weapon!" I mean, Wedge Antilles is cool and all, but I wouldn't expect him to fight with a lightsaber, which Finn does pretty well considering he's never had any training. As you said, he holds his own against Ren...at least for a little bit. Furthermore, it would explain why he was able to break the Stormtrooper conditioning.

 

 

And some other Rey points I forgot to add to my earlier speculation. These arguments may not be as strong, but they stood out to me.

 

 

 

 

In Rebels, Ezra was left alone on Lothal after his parents are captured by the Empire. One thing they seem to always come back to is his use of a Stormtrooper helmet he wears as a kind of security blanket--specifically during scenes where he is thinking about his parents. Of course, he's small, so it looks oversized on him.

 

 

This would also explain the striking image of Rey putting on the Rogue Squadron helmet at the beginning of TFA.

 

 

Following my theory, the helmet would be a keepsake of her mother, Sabine (as we may find out in Rogue One), and the wearing of it is an affectation picked up from her father.

 

Also, another clue I forgot to mention, is Rey recognizes Han Solo as "the great smuggler"-- which is something both Sabine and Ezra do (i.e. smuggling) in Rebels. If my theory is correct, it would make sense for her to be more interested in that aspect of his life.

 

Also, she has a stuffed Rebel Fighter in her AT-AT home. Doesn't really mean anything, but it is interesting...

 

 

 

 

ETA: And, yes, I recognize I am now "Correcting and Omitting" The Force Awakens.

[jarrycanada 2483]

George lucas on charlie rose explained episode one and anakin's backstory.

 

 

 

Hey loosen up kid your going to love it, it's like Disney land.

 

 

[FisterRoboto 7499]

Pretty sure this corgi and June feel the same way about BB-8:

 

[RyanSz 3140]

The one thing that kinda bugs me logistics-wise is how is BB-8's head on its body? Is it magnets that it uses to move and keep its head in a near stationary position or is it an incredibly fine wire network laid in the body of the droid?

[FisterRoboto 7499]

The one thing that kinda bugs me logistics-wise is how is BB-8's head on its body? Is it magnets that it uses to move and keep its head in a near stationary position or is it an incredibly fine wire network laid in the body of the droid?

Probably magnets, since that's how the working model and toy both work.

[RyanSz 3140]

Probably magnets, since that's how the working model and toy both work.

But, but..