Musical Mondays-Week 7-Cabaret!

[kateacola 2440]

 

First of all, Elke was a MAN?!? I thought she meant she had more than syphilis. I missed that one completely.

 

I mean, I get the disappointment, but I feel like this movie was extremely progressive for its time that it's almost unfair to judge it by saying it wasn't progressive enough.

 

I am pretty sure that's what they were implying with the joke and character. I could be wrong, that's just what I took from it.

But I have seen some critics reviews mention that as a criticism specifically.

 

And I agree it was very progressive for it's time and it wasn't those jokes that turned me off to the movie or anything. It was just something that I wanted to mention.

 

I had more of a "beef" with the relationships in that I guess I didn't totally buy that Sally and Brian loved each other. I could tell they cared for each other but I didn't get their romantic relationship in general.

 

I just didn't get why they got out of the friend zone? When it seemed (intially) he was pretty adamant in not wanting to sleep with her.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

 

I am pretty sure that's what they were implying with the joke and character. I could be wrong, that's just what I took from it.

But I have seen some critics reviews mention that as a criticism.

 

And I agree it was very progressive for it's time and it wasn't those jokes that turned me off to the movie or anything. It was just something that I wanted to mention.

 

I had more of a "beef" with the relationships and I guess I didn't totally buy that Sally and Brian loved each other. I could tell they cared for each other but I didn't get their romantic relationship in general.

 

I just didn't get why they got out of the friend zone? When it seemed (intially) he was pretty adamant in not wanting to sleep with her.

 

As far as the "friend zone" stuff, I'd say it's all about denial, which is the running theme throughout. Sally's in denial that she probably won't become a movie star by working in a seedy, German cabaret; Brian is in sexual denial; Fritz is in denial of his Jewish heritage; Sally and Brian are in denial that their relationship has a future; the Kit Kat club is in denial that it's a "safe place" from the world's problems; Fritz's love interest is in denial that he loves her for more than her money; Germany is in denial of the threat posed by the Nazis.

 

The tragedy of the movie is by the time anyone recognizes they're in denial, it's too late, or at least, the timing is terrible.

[kateacola 2440]

As far as the "friend zone" stuff, I'd say it's all about denial, which is the running theme throughout. Sally's in denial that she probably won't become a movie star by working in a seedy, German cabaret; Brian is in sexual denial; Fritz is in denial of his Jewish heritage; Sally and Brian are in denial that their relationship has a future; the Kit Kat club is in denial that it's a "safe place" from the world's problems; Fritz's love interest is in denial that he loves her for more than her money; Germany is in denial of the the threat posed by the Nazis.

[FisterRoboto 7499]

I don't fully get why Brian and Sally ended up crossing their friend line or what her motivation with Brian was? I get her main motivation with Max was money but Brian...I'm not sure because it did not seem like it was love or... I don't know what it was really since I did not feel that much chemistry with them.

 

I think initially it was just kind of her carefree, bohemian way. She's portrayed as a very sex-positive character, and I think she just wanted to hook up with him. And then they developed real feelings for each other.

 

I mean, I get the disappointment, but I feel like this movie was extremely progressive for its time that it's almost unfair to judge it by saying it wasn't progressive enough. To me, It's like your country winning the long jump competition, but being disappointed that they didn't beat the world record.

I agree. When I brought it up, I was mostly pointing out how it's strange that a film can feel so progressive for the time but also feel outdated when viewed through the lens of today. This happens all the time. I watched TransAmerica a couple weeks ago, and it has the same thing. It's a very progressive film about a transwoman (and there are parts that hold up as genuinely progressive by today's standards), but there are also things that I saw and was like, "Wow, that would be really out of place today."

[Cameron H. 23786]

I think initially it was just kind of her carefree, bohemian way. She's portrayed as a very sex-positive character, and I think she just wanted to hook up with him. And then they developed real feelings for each other.

 

And that's not to say anything about "Maybe This Time" which explicitly states her feelings. She is bohemian, yes, but there's also a strong pull toward a more stable and traditional relationship. This is why the telegram from her father is significant. We are getting the impression that men just don't "stick around." That's what Brian represents--the college job, the tiny cottage in the country, etc. Her desire to be a successful actress/singer and her desire for a more traditional lifestyle are constantly at odds with one another. Ultimately, her love for Brian wins out. She realizes that their relationship would never be "real," and her refusal to come with him (not to mention the abortion) absolves him of any responsibility.

 

That's her tragedy. She never gets that stability. Nor will she ever find that success. At best, considering what's about to go down, she'll end up just like "Elsie."

[kateacola 2440]

 

I agree. When I brought it up, I was mostly pointing out how it's strange that a film can feel so progressive for the time but also feel outdated when viewed through the lens of today. This happens all the time. I watched TransAmerica a couple weeks ago, and it has the same thing. It's a very progressive film about a transwoman (and there are parts that hold up as genuinely progressive by today's standards), but there are also things that I saw and was like, "Wow, that would be really out of place today."

 

Well put!

 

I did not bring up the trans "jokes" to be the PC police or anything..or trying to use that to discredit what topics they were being progressive with (at the time & even now).

Again, I did like the movie and a little more-so after a 2nd viewing. I think it could grow on me a little more with another viewing (but probably not going to anytime soon). I just didn't love it, like I thought I would.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

Well put!

 

I did not bring up the trans "jokes" to be the PC police or anything..or trying to use that to discredit what topics they were being progressive with (at the time & even now).

Again, I did like the movie and a little more-so after a 2nd viewing. I think it could grow on me a little more with another viewing (but probably not going to anytime soon). I just didn't love it, like I thought I would.

No it's important to bring these kinds of things up! It's definitely an issue that Elke is only brought up in two scenarios and they're both a nudge to the audience like "GET IT!" but not only was this made in 1972 but it's set in 1931 Germany to which I couldn't stop thinking about how she would be beaten for this.

 

The dark tones really got to me.

[Cameron H. 23786]

No it's important to bring these kinds of things up! It's definitely an issue that Elke is only brought up in two scenarios and they're both a nudge to the audience like "GET IT!" but not only was this made in 1972 but it's set in 1931 Germany to which I couldn't stop thinking about how she would be beaten for this.

 

The dark tones really got to me.

 

It's sooooooo dark.

 

And I agree, we should by all means recognize these moments. I just felt like saying that it was "disappointing" might be a bit harsh. Just five years after homosexuality was decriminalized in the England (the US would be "working on it" for many, many years to come), this movie offered the world a sympathetic, non stereotypical, three dimensional, homosexual person as a main character in a major motion picture. That's pretty awesome.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

 

It's sooooooo dark.

 

And I agree, we should by all means recognize these moments. I just felt like saying that it was "disappointing" might be a bit harsh. Just five years after homosexuality was decriminalized in the England (the US would be "working on it" for many, many years to come), this movie offered the world a sympathetic, non stereotypical, three dimensional, homosexual person as a main character in a major motion picture. That's pretty awesome.

Don't forget that the source for the play and movie came the writings of Christopher Isherwood, who was as gay as the day is long. He lived in Berlin in the 30's and saw the rise of the Nazi party first hand, needing to hide his sexuality while at the same time maintaining a presence in the gay cabaret scene of the time. Later, gay people under the Nazi regime would have to wear pink triangles, and many went to extermination camps. Check out Martin Sherman's play 'Bent' for an even more harrowing take on this.

 

I think 100%, without any doubt, Brian is gay (being the Isherwood surrogate), although his relationship with Sally is definitely one of co-dependent love. The energy between Brian and Max is clear but isn't exploited or even illustrated - all we hear later is that he's been screwing him, but we don't see them together aside from in social scenarios. The whole 'wrong three girls' thing for me pointed to the fact that Brian's a gay man in denial - his rejection of Sally is clearly showing just how arousing he finds women - and when they finally consummate the relationship it is far more to do with his need for human contact and the fact that Sally loves him. He definitely loves her too, but he's closeted the same way that Josh Charles is in 'Threesome' - not attracted to women, not sure enough about men, so he's asexual - so their relationship becomes easy and convenient.

 

I think the fact that 'Cabaret' doesn't really explore sexuality speaks more to the fact that this is Sally's movie, not Brian's. Hence the treatment of the trans/drag Kit Kat girl: sexuality just isn't the central issue, even though readers of Isherwood would likely raise an eyebrow at how it'd been swept away.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Don't forget that the source for the play and movie came the writings of Christopher Isherwood, who was as gay as the day is long. He lived in Berlin in the 30's and saw the rise of the Nazi party first hand, needing to hide his sexuality while at the same time maintaining a presence in the gay cabaret scene of the time. Later, gay people under the Nazi regime would have to wear pink triangles, and many went to extermination camps. Check out Martin Sherman's play 'Bent' for an even more harrowing take on this.

 

I think 100%, without any double, Brian is gay (being the Isherwood surrogate), although his relationship with Sally is definitely one of co-dependent love. The energy between Brian and Max is clear but isn't exploited or even illustrated - all we hear later is that he's been screwing him, but we don't see them together aside from in social scenarios. The whole 'wrong three girls' thing for me pointed to the fact that Brian's a gay man in denial - his rejection of Sally is clearly showing just how arousing he finds women - and when they finally consummate the relationship it is far more to do with his need for human contact and the fact that Sally loves him. He definitely loves her too, but he's closeted the same way that Josh Charles is in 'Threesome' - not attracted to women, not sure enough about men, so he's asexual - so their relationship becomes easy and convenient.

 

I think the fact that 'Cabaret' doesn't really explore sexuality speaks more to the fact that this is Sally's movie, not Brian's. Hence the treatment of the trans/drag Kit Kat girl: sexuality just isn't the central issue, even though readers of Isherwood would likely raise an eyebrow at how it'd been swept away.

 

IS it Sally's movie, though? I'm not entirely sure of that, BUT...I'm prepping dinner right now so can't get into it

 

Food for thought, how many scenes (aside from songs) does Sally carry on her own?

[taylor anne photo 11311]

I genuinely don't think Brian is gay, but rather bisexual, which can be even more confusing for a person to figure out (Example A: Myself).

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

 

IS it Sally's movie, though? I'm not entirely sure of that, BUT...I'm prepping dinner right now so can't get into it

 

Food for thought, how many scenes (aside from songs) does Sally carry on her own?

Well, technically it would be Brian's, but he enters and leaves the world after the Kit Kat club is established. If you ask ANYONE who has seen the stage play, you would without any doubt say it's the Emcee's show. No doubt. Sally isn't supposed to be very talented, and she gets fired from the Kit Kat Club in the first act: yet she still believes in her own talent. The movie's another thing altogether. Liza is featured, she's the only woman who sings solo, she gets the big torch solos and the five-to-eleven number. Any viewer of this movie will remember Liza first, not Basil Exposition/Tybalt. So, even if it is Brian's movie (although I would argue that he doesn't grow as much as Sally does) I think she steals it right out from under him.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

I genuinely don't think Brian is gay, but rather bisexual, which can be even more confusing for a person to figure out (Example A: Myself).

Oh, me too (example B ) but the dead giveaway for me is how frightened Brian is of Sally when she kisses him. That's not a man with a well-explored sense of his attraction to women, which can be very much present in bisexual men. He doesn't seem very interested in men, either: I think I will stick to my guns about him being gay, but I would say that this character isn't destined to figure that out and embrace it until years later.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Well, technically it would be Brian's, but he enters and leaves the world after the Kit Kat club is established. If you ask ANYONE who has seen the stage play, you would without any doubt say it's the Emcee's show. No doubt. Sally isn't supposed to be very talented, and she gets fired from the Kit Kat Club in the first act: yet she still believes in her own talent. The movie's another thing altogether. Liza is featured, she's the only woman who sings solo, she gets the big torch solos and the five-to-eleven number. Any viewer of this movie will remember Liza first, not Basil Exposition/Tybalt. So, even if it is Brian's movie (although I would argue that he doesn't grow as much as Sally does) I think she steals it right out from under him.

 

Oh, boy! Do I disagree! (Here we go!)

 

Brian changes significantly. He accepts (or at least confronts) his sexuality, he stands up to Nazis, and leaves Germany a very different person than who he was when he arrived.

 

Sally ends the movie as she began it--desperate for her big shot and deluded of what's going on around her. For a moment she allowed her vulnerability to show, but with a wave of her fingers, she is wrapped in her armor once again.

 

Fuck, that's dinner. Be back later

[taylor anne photo 11311]

Oh, me too (example B ) but the dead giveaway for me is how frightened Brian is of Sally when she kisses him. That's not a man with a well-explored sense of his attraction to women, which can be very much present in bisexual men. He doesn't seem very interested in men, either: I think I will stick to my guns about him being gay, but I would say that this character isn't destined to figure that out and embrace it until years later.

See I took this as a showing that he was afraid of exploring sexuality period which is why in all honesty I thought he was really going to end up as ace instead. I mean he was faced with this girl who was all in his face about everything and just pounces (to use Sally's term) and he's like woah whaaaat. Then later the moment happens more naturally and he's all in. I just don't think he was going to be down for anything to happen with either gender until he was ready for it.

[tomspanks 9039]

I'm glad I finally watched this movie, and I can appreciate it for its place in film history, but ultimately I didn't enjoy it as much as the stage version. I had no idea what Cabaret was when I went to see it, so even though the movie came first, the stage version is THE version to me. My brain was a blank slate and it got imprinted with the stage version, if that makes sense.

 

The Emcee. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Joel Grey didn't have any major speaking lines in the movie, did he? I think the Emcee plays a bigger part on the stage version. Also, Alan Cumming played Emcee cheekier than Joel Grey (did he seem kind of sinister to anyone else?), often appearing as part of the background dancers during songs sung "outside" of the Kit Kat Club.

 

Speaking of songs, I think many of the songs were left out in the movie. While on one hand I'm glad, since the movie is so long already, I missed hearing some of my favorites like "It Couldn't Please Me More," perhaps the best love song with a pineapple, sung by Herr Schultz and Fraulein Schneider. I can understand why the movie chose to have the B-plot with Fritz/Natalia, but I prefer the Herr Schultz/Fraulein Schneider story.

 

Then there is Sally. Liza is an amazing singer and rightly deserves all accolades for her performance in the movie. However, my Sally is in her mid-30s, she's seen things, and she knows she's never going to be a famous movie star. In the movie, you have a shred of hope that Sally maybe might perhaps succeed because it's clear that girl can sing. But Natasha Richardson (RIP *crying emoji*) played Sally as someone who doesn't even believe in herself. On the stage version, Sally is a failing Cabaret singer who doesn't believe it when she sings "Maybe This Time."

 

PS - is/was it common to pour beer with 99% head in that part of Germany? That seemed like a real disservice to beer.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

 

Oh, boy! Do, I disagree! (Here we go!)

 

Brian changes significantly. He accepts (or at least confronts) his sexuality, he stands up to Nazis, and leaves Germany very much a different person than who he was when he arrived.

 

Sally ends the movie as she began it--desperate for her big shot and deluded of what's going on around her. For a moment she allowed her vulnerability to show, but with a wave of her fingers, she is wrapped in her armor once again.

 

Fuck, that's dinner. Be back later

Okay, Brian does have those turning points going for him, granted. But the whole point of the final number is that Sally is sinking in to embrace the place that she has resisted through the whole movie. I don't see her as desperate for her big shot anymore so much as saying 'life is a cabaret and I'm a rockstar here'. I'm not sure I buy that she hasn't grown at all: after all she's been through I think she's much more honest with herself about what she can do with her life, and while she's dying inside, she's a consummate professional on that stage. I think her bravery, hidden under that thin veneer of sass, is palpable. She could have clung to Brian but she let him go. She could have not stepped back on the stage but she did. I think Sally is stronger here than that.

 

She promises in the final song that when she goes, she'll 'go like Elsie'. She's here, and she's accepted who she is. I think she's grown plenty.

[Cameron H. 23786]

She could have clung to Brian but she let him go. She could have not stepped back on the stage but she did. I think Sally is stronger here than that. She promises in the final song that when she goes, she'll 'go like Elsie'. She's here, and she's accepted who she is. I think she's grown plenty.

 

Wow, it's so funny how two people can have completely different takes on a movie.

 

I'll give you that she lets Brian go, but you seem to be suggesting that her getting back on stage is a triumph. She wants to be onstage. That's all she's ever wanted. She's still being willfully ignorant to what's going on around her.

 

I guess I just have a bleaker view of her final song. Where you see acceptance, I see resignation. All she has in her future is death. It's more in the music and less in the words. She begins the song on an upbeat note, as if being in a Cabaret is the best thing in the world. This mood continues through her first verse about Elsie. Then the tempo changes to a more wistful note. She's saying, "Yup, that's how I'm probably going to go too." The song then picks back up for the finale, but I don't see this as her convincing the audience the "life is a cabaret" so much as her trying to convince herself. She's trying to give herself strength.

 

Just like nearly everything in the movie, I feel the song is a metaphor for Nazism. They ignored the problem when they could have done something about it, things got worse, and now all they can do is hope everything is going to be okay (spoiler alert: it won't be.)

 

I just can't see this movie trying to give Sally this triumphant ending. It just doesn't fit the tone of the movie--especially in that final scene.

[kateacola 2440]

 

The Emcee. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Joel Grey didn't have any major speaking lines in the movie, did he? I think the Emcee plays a bigger part on the stage version. Also, Alan Cumming played Emcee cheekier than Joel Grey (did he seem kind of sinister to anyone else?), often appearing as part of the background dancers during songs sung "outside" of the Kit Kat Club.

 

 

If the stage version has more MC, I'm in. Especially with Alan Cumming as MC !

 

OR would've loved to see Michael C Hall as MC. Because I love him too lol... & looking up his stage career, I see that he also was Hedwig for a stint for Hedwig & the Angry Inch.. among others but mentioned since it was another MM pick

 

[tomspanks 9039]

 

If the stage version has more MC, I'm in. Especially with Alan Cumming as MC !

 

OR would've loved to see Michael C Hall as MC. Because I love him too lol... & looking up his stage career see that he also was Hedwig for a stint for Hedwig & the Angry Inch.. among others but mentioned since it was another MM pick

 

 

Yeah! I saw him as Hedwig once purely by (bad) luck when JCM sustained an injury. MCH brought a lot more masculinity to the role.

ETA: Dude was ripped.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

 

Yeah! I saw him as Hedwig once purely by (bad) luck when JCM sustained an injury. MCH brought a lot more masculinity to the role.

ETA: Dude was ripped.

It's all that after-hours serial killing. And basketball-court softshoe.

[kateacola 2440]

ETA: Dude was ripped.

Uggh, I'm sure he was...

 

haha

 

 

I saw him as Hedwig once purely by (bad) luck when JCM sustained an injury.

 

It'd be tough for anyone to compare to Mitchell as Hedwig, I'd assume... Purely from seeing the film version.

[Cameron H. 23786]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QS1l1mSDSo

 

 

I just watched the song again and I may be wrong, or at least, maybe not entirely right.

 

Just curious, what does everyone else see during this scene? What is it saying? About her. About anything. This is the movie's thesis, after all. What are we taking away from this song?

 

(Without trying to sway people's opinion one way or another, I would note her expression just before she goes on and how quickly she puts on a happy facade.)

 

My revised hypothesis is that we can pretend that life is whatever we want it to be, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. Whether or not Sally is aware of this or not is up for debate. I think she does, but is trying desperately to cling on to that fantasy for as long as she can.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

Here's a reboot of the same song, same message...

 

[Cameron H. 23786]

Here's a reboot of the same song, same message...

 

I thought it was this..?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq4aOaDXIfY