Musical Mondays-Week 8-Rent

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

No, the point is that without Larson's death, the question is, would the buzz have been the same? All I'm saying is that it might have been a well-received little show that ran Off-Broadway for a while. Lots of great shows don't make it to Broadway, but the bump that his death gave made the buzz explode. It's a crowded marketplace, and without deep pockets behind you (and from all the oral histories, many investors were put off by the music and the subject matter) no matter how good you are, you're going to struggle.

 

Also: https://en.wikipedia...t_Musical#1990s

Rent was the 12th highest-grossing musical in 1996. (Granted, dollars don't equal butts in seats.)

http://www.broadwayworld.com/grossescumulative.cfm?year=1996

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Rent was the 12th highest-grossing musical in 1996. (Granted, dollars don't equal butts in seats.)

http://www.broadwayw...e.cfm?year=1996

Apologies. I forgot to add ITSV.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

I went searching for Jimmy Pardo's reaction because someone mentioned it in last week's thread. Found this podcast episode with Anthony Rapp (Mark). I like the description of Jimmy's "relationship" with the show: "Jimmy Pardo, of course, has a bizarre, complicated relationship with the musical, where he by all accounts hates everything about the [sic] it but nonetheless sees it every chance he gets, and sobs profusely in his car afterward each time. Rapp, for his part, is as baffled by this as anyone would be, but he takes it well, even though he still has a lot of love for the show." (You have to scroll down to get to the podcast description.)

http://www.avclub.co...-twister-221760

http://www.earwolf.c...e/anthony-rapp/

It’s a good sign when a two-hour plus podcast seems to go by quickly, and the debut Never Not Funny appearance of Anthony Rapp—best known for Dazed And Confused and as an original Broadway cast member of Rent—flies by. There’s a lot of Rent talk, but it’s not all back-patting. Jimmy Pardo, of course, has a bizarre, complicated relationship with the musical, where he by all accounts hates everything about the it but nonetheless sees it every chance he gets, and sobs profusely in his car afterward each time. Rapp, for his part, is as baffled by this as anyone would be, but he takes it well, even though he still has a lot of love for the show. (The same cannot be said for Twister; his work in that film also gets some decent discussion time.) Though the topics are wide-ranging, the episode feels more focused than usual. It’s hard to feel anything but joy by the end, too, when Pardo and Rapp attempt to duet a Rent number before the whole crew joins in for “Seasons Of Love,” which quickly devolves into a delightful disaster.

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

I vividly remember writing a song one day and really liking where it was going. Suddenly, I stopped and sped up the riff and realized I had just "wrote" "Enter Sandman." I also started writing a novel about a normal boy who dresses up like a superhero and finds himself in over his head. A year later, Kick-Ass by Mark Millar was published.

This sounds like half of the comedian WTF interviews.

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

I found this David Rakoff interview with Ira Glass, which I liked. I'll quote it in full, although it probably covers things we've already brought up.

I remember hearing that Rakoff interview (on TAL, presumably).

 

It was a great interview -- really resonated with me. I rolled with a more bohemian crowd when I was younger but I always had my eyes on the prize (e.g. a career, family, etc.).

 

What I'm saying is, Chris McDonald would play me in a movie.

 

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

No, the point is that without Larson's death, the question is, would the buzz have been the same? All I'm saying is that it might have been a well-received little show that ran Off-Broadway for a while. Lots of great shows don't make it to Broadway, but the bump that his death gave made the buzz explode. It's a crowded marketplace, and without deep pockets behind you (and from all the oral histories, many investors were put off by the music and the subject matter) no matter how good you are, you're going to struggle.

 

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Award_for_Best_Musical#1990s

 

And what if Van Gogh hadn't shot himself? What if his brother Theodore hadn't become an Art Dealer? And what if John Lennon never met Paul McCartney? And what if George Washington had died at Fort Necessity?

 

I mean, I don't know what to tell you. All I can say is that it ran for a long time. Whether it would have made it if he hadn't died, I have no idea. Maybe? It's good, but not the greatest. But that applies to a lot of things that have had a lasting impact.

 

I guess I just don't see how it matters unless there was a specific Musical at that time that was awesome, but overshadowed by Rent's success.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

Also: https://en.wikipedia...t_Musical#1990s

I had no idea that Lin was involved in Bring It On and now I'm sad I haven't seen that yet!

[FisterRoboto 7499]

CakeBug thank you for not bowing out because this line alone is officially my favorite thing ever -

David Rakoff was a total genius, and that piece picked apart many of the small things that bother me about the musical (and that Cam Bert seems to hit on). It's also part of why I hate Mark: he's a privileged proto-hipster that doesn't want to pay rent. He's surrounded by homeless people and people straight up dying from AIDS, and everything is still about him and his "artistic integrity". He's kind of white privilege in a nutshell. I keep thinking of that line in the song "Common People" that says "If you called your dad he could stop it all." It's ultimately also why I do like the scene with the homeless lady that's been mentioned a couple times in response to this. Also, the homeless people are a chorus ITSV, and I think it works even better.

 

And as far as Cakebug's theory about Rent becoming the phenomenon it did, I totally see that, and it's something I was thinking about while watching the movie (because I was trying to figure out why something so mediocre was so beloved). It's definitely an amazing stage production, but I think you're right that the buzz around Rent is what propelled it initially from being a beloved but underseen to full blow phenomenon. I have another thought related to this, but I'm about to run into a meeting, so I'll have to hope I remember it when I get out

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

I had no idea that Lin was involved in Bring It On and now I'm sad I haven't seen that yet!

 

Speaking of Lin...

 

http://www.playbill.com/article/lin-manuel-miranda-and-leslie-odom-jr-reveal-how-rent-shaped-history-and-hamilton-com-341546

 

What if a 13 year old boy hadn't seen Rent?

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

And what if Van Gogh hadn't shot himself? What if his brother Theodore hadn't become an Art Dealer? And what if John Lennon never met Paul McCartney? And what if George Washington had died at Fort Necessity?

 

I mean, I don't know what to tell you. All I can say is that it ran for a long time. Whether it would have made it if he hadn't died, I have no idea. Maybe? It's good, but not the greatest. But that applies to a lot of things that have had a lasting impact.

 

I guess I just don't see how it matters unless there was a specific Musical at that time that was awesome, but overshadowed by Rent's success.

I think it's like my liking the movie Moonlight. I probably wouldn't have seen it if it hadn't been nominated for Best Picture AND that Regal Cinemas had a Best Picture Festival where they showed all 9 nominees. I think Jonathon Larson's death brought out a lot more people to see the show and then it took off on its own merits. If he hadn't died it might have been a more modest success and fewer people would have seen it.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Serious question: Did Rent (either in the movie or ITSV) HAVE to update La Boheme? The dramaturg note posted earlier mentioned Jonathon Larson had a lot of dramatic issues resolved by building on the operatic framework. Yet it seems to me the musical itself would have worked just fine without trading on the opera. I think one of the reasons I initially didn't like La Vie Boheme was it just seemed like a barefaced shoehorn, like "Oh yeah! Just in case you forgot we're La Boheme on its 100th anniversary!"

 

The character names play on that as well. Who knows Angel's last name is Schunard? I think it's mentioned once but otherwise she's Angel throughout. Rodrigo becomes Roger. Marcel becomes Mark. Musetta becomes Maureen. Colline is Tom Collins. Yet Mimi stays Mimi. Why, EXCEPT to highlight the connection? (And for the "You? Me! Mimiiiiiiiii!" line.)

[FisterRoboto 7499]

Serious question: Did Rent (either in the movie or ITSV) HAVE to update La Boheme? The dramaturg note posted earlier mentioned Jonathon Larson had a lot of dramatic issues resolved by building on the operatic framework. Yet it seems to me the musical itself would have worked just fine without trading on the opera. I think one of the reasons I initially didn't like La Vie Boheme was it just seemed like a barefaced shoehorn, like "Oh yeah! Just in case you forgot we're La Boheme on its 100th anniversary!"

 

The character names play on that as well. Who knows Angel's last name is Schunard? I think it's mentioned once but otherwise she's Angel throughout. Rodrigo becomes Roger. Marcel becomes Mark. Musetta becomes Maureen. Colline is Tom Collins. Yet Mimi stays Mimi. Why, EXCEPT to highlight the connection? (And for the "You? Me! Mimiiiiiiiii!" line.)

Also, presumably, La Boheme exists within the Rent-iverse because in "La Vie Boheme," Mark says Roger will write a song that doesn't remind them all of "Musetta's Waltz"...which is from La Boheme. So why are none of them like, "Hey, we're living that opera!"

[Cameron H. 23786]

Serious question: Did Rent (either in the movie or ITSV) HAVE to update La Boheme? The dramaturg note posted earlier mentioned Jonathon Larson had a lot of dramatic issues resolved by building on the operatic framework. Yet it seems to me the musical itself would have worked just fine without trading on the opera. I think one of the reasons I initially didn't like La Vie Boheme was it just seemed like a barefaced shoehorn, like "Oh yeah! Just in case you forgot we're La Boheme on its 100th anniversary!"

 

The character names play on that as well. Who knows Angel's last name is Schunard? I think it's mentioned once but otherwise she's Angel throughout. Rodrigo becomes Roger. Marcel becomes Mark. Musetta becomes Maureen. Colline is Tom Collins. Yet Mimi stays Mimi. Why, EXCEPT to highlight the connection? (And for the "You? Me! Mimiiiiiiiii!" line.)

 

I'm not familiar with the opera, but if he could see the relevancy between the original's themes and the story he was trying to tell, then I don't see the problem in updating it a bit.

 

To me, that's like asking why Clueless or 10Things I Hate About You when both Emma and The Taming of the Shrew already exist.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Also, presumably, La Boheme exists within the Rent-iverse because in "La Vie Boheme," Mark says Roger will write a song that doesn't remind them all of "Musetta's Waltz"...which is from La Boheme. So why are none of them like, "Hey, we're living that opera!"

I think the opening of the movie is one of the reasons I had problems. In La Boheme the flatmates are poor and aren't going to pay the rent but they do it in a charming way, befuddling the landlord. Even with the additions ITSV where Benny is a complete dick to his former roommates the entire building claiming they're not going to pay rent falls flat. The Tango: Maureen is a masterful update of Musetta's Waltz. I loved that scene. Everything else could have been portrayed as an East Village slice of life and it would have worked. Knowing it's La Boheme brings expectations from the viewer that, (at least in the movie for me), weren't met.

 

I also have problems with Musetta/Maureen as a character. Both of them are hopeless flirts (or worse) yet they are treated as if it's perfectly charming. Everyone laughs in La Boheme when Musetta fools her old, fuddy-duddy lover, sticks him with the bill (so they don't even pay for the meal themselves) and runs off with Marcel. Later in the opera Marcel angrily fumes about her behavior but never is able to settle her down. One thing I think Rent does extremely well is show the human carnage Maureen is leaving in her wake but I'm not sure she ever learns either. She and Joanne reconcile but for how long?

 

I admit this issue for me may be more cultural than specifically about the Musetta/Maureen character. The show Kiss Me Kate has Bianca as an almost unrepentant slut yet she's a star of the show. She keeps nagging her boyfriend to give up his gambling but then verbally smacks him when he dares to question her sleeping around. Her quote "How the hell can you be jealous, when you know, baby, I'm your slave!" rings false because she then sings an entire song about gladly going off with any rich man who gives her jewels or furs or other niceties.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

I'm not familiar with the opera, but if he could see the relevancy between the original's themes and the story he was trying to tell, then I don't see the problem in updating it a bit.

 

To me, that's like asking why Clueless or 10Things I Hate About You when both Emma and The Taming of the Shrew already exist.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I have no problems with updating. I wanted to see Baz Luhrmann's La Boheme when it came out but was still in Michgan. I mean did the show itself have to call out that it was updating La Boheme?

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I have no problems with updating. I wanted to see Baz Luhrmann's La Boheme when it came out but was still in Michgan. I mean did the show itself have to call out that it was updating La Boheme?

You know what, strike the question. I'm just being an old fogy. If done right, callouts can be charming and I don't have a problem when they're done then. I'm being a hypocrite. Apologies to all.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I have no problems with updating. I wanted to see Baz Luhrmann's La Boheme when it came out but was still in Michgan. I mean did the show itself have to call out that it was updating La Boheme?

I hear what you're saying, but this is part of the adaptive process - I have taught adaptation theory in the past and this is something that students grappled with when putting together their own adaptation projects. The reasons for adapting past materials are many: it's a ready-made structure, you know it works, you know people like it, you think the old themes might work today, etc, etc etc. But the deal you make when actively adapting a text is that you're tipping your hat to the past for the benefit of the audience. In many ways, the adaptive process is a very metatheatrical gesture, by acknowledging the past while creating the present. I recently adapted Maxim Gorky's The Lower Depths to be set today in Toronto in a low-rent district, and while I could very easily have obliterated all reference to Gorky, by doing so you're taking away the audience's pleasure who may know the original material. Much like the Mimi/Mimi connection, I retained the name of Luka, the pilgrim, as a wink to audiences who know the source. This can become a kind of easter egg for an audience - it's what Linda Hutcheon calls the 'knowing/unknowing audience', and the impact on a knowing audience - or someone who watches 'West Side Story' with full knowledge of the content of 'Romeo and Juliet' as opposed to someone who doesn't know the Shakespeare - is far greater. The audience goes through a pleasurable process of oscillation between the source and the adaptation, mentally flipping back and forth to note connections and to compare choices. The unknowing audience (arguably most of the 'Rent' crowd) can also enjoy the show, but not as an adaptation. They'll enjoy it as a fun musical without the additional layer.

 

It's like Cam's note above about 'Ten Things', for example - that film is RIDDLED with Shakespearean easter eggs that are there for the benefit of the knowing audience member, but the film doesn't depend on them. I think at the heart of it, things that survive long enough to be adapted prove that they have staying power as great stories, so that's the core motivation. By referring back to easter eggs they not only signal that they're knowingly adapting (and avoiding accusations of plagiarism) but that they're aware that some of the audience will know the source. It's a point of respect, I think.

[tomspanks 9039]

Serious question: Did Rent (either in the movie or ITSV) HAVE to update La Boheme? The dramaturg note posted earlier mentioned Jonathon Larson had a lot of dramatic issues resolved by building on the operatic framework. Yet it seems to me the musical itself would have worked just fine without trading on the opera. I think one of the reasons I initially didn't like La Vie Boheme was it just seemed like a barefaced shoehorn, like "Oh yeah! Just in case you forgot we're La Boheme on its 100th anniversary!"

 

The character names play on that as well. Who knows Angel's last name is Schunard? I think it's mentioned once but otherwise she's Angel throughout. Rodrigo becomes Roger. Marcel becomes Mark. Musetta becomes Maureen. Colline is Tom Collins. Yet Mimi stays Mimi. Why, EXCEPT to highlight the connection? (And for the "You? Me! Mimiiiiiiiii!" line.)

 

Maybe "update" is the wrong word here. Inspired by? Loosely based on?

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

 

Maybe "update" is the wrong word here. Inspired by? Loosely based on?

Etymology lesson time:

 

'Adaptation' comes from the Greek 'Adaptere', meaning 'To make fit'.

 

'Rent' is absolutely an adaptation, where the themes of 'La Boheme' were made to fit 1990s New York City. Some adjustment is always required for such a process. But adaptation is the correct word, not update.

[tomspanks 9039]

I've been poo-poo'ing this movie thus far, so I wanted to bring up something that I loved about the movie...

 

Jesse L Martin's 1000-watt smile. My goodness, he's got a gorgeous smile.

 

 

And the scene where Mark quits his Buzzline job by sing-screaming his resignation into the air. I lol'ed so hard. ITSV he resigns over the phone, like a normal human being.

[JammerLea 2070]

I feel like I'm replying late, but

 

Mass Effect?

 

Nah, the ancient mmorpg of Ragnarok Online. It's pretty relaxing.

 

 

Cameron, to add to your point, this happens in comedy ALL THE TIME! I keep hearing comedians talk about premises they came up with and then the next month they have to scrap them because they saw someone do the same premise on Conan. When something happens now that provides a good joke you'll see comedians flock to twitter to get it in first so they can be the one to use it later, cause they all know they're thinking the same thing. It seems like when you have an artistic mind (or a comedic mind - which I guess is artistic too nevermind lol) your going to follow a lot of the same paths as other artists.

 

This reminds me so much of when I wanted to do a print for a new anime series and BOTH ideas I had for it, I ended up finding that other artists had already done, so I gave up on that one. It was fine, because the other artists did really nice work (and the market was kind of oversaturated anyway lol). It just happens, especially when there's like-minded people around.

 

 

Etymology lesson time:

 

I'm sure this is just my problem, but being a little sleepy and because you're CakeBug, I first read "Etymology" as "Entomology".

 

 

And the scene where Mark quits his Buzzline job by sing-screaming his resignation into the air. I lol'ed so hard. ITSV he resigns over the phone, like a normal human being.

 

When he did that I was mostly focused on my puzzle and glanced up at the TV like "who is he singing to? is his crew there? why is Roger there?" I'm still confused.

[tomspanks 9039]

I admit this issue for me may be more cultural than specifically about the Musetta/Maureen character. The show Kiss Me Kate has Bianca as an almost unrepentant slut yet she's a star of the show. She keeps nagging her boyfriend to give up his gambling but then verbally smacks him when he dares to question her sleeping around. Her quote "How the hell can you be jealous, when you know, baby, I'm your slave!" rings false because she then sings an entire song about gladly going off with any rich man who gives her jewels or furs or other niceties.

 

I've watched the movie and seen the stage version of Kiss Me Kate and neither productions made me think the Bianca/Lois character was an "unrepentant slut," whatever that means. If I recall correctly, her boyfriend (or fiance?) has a crippling gambling problem, where he actually signs an IOU to another name, so why wouldn't she try to stop him from gambling?

[kateacola 2440]

Cameron, to add to your point, this happens in comedy ALL THE TIME! I keep hearing comedians talk about premises they came up with and then the next month they have to scrap them because they saw someone do the same premise on Conan. When something happens now that provides a good joke you'll see comedians flock to twitter to get it in first so they can be the one to use it later, cause they all know they're thinking the same thing. It seems like when you have an artistic mind (or a comedic mind - which I guess is artistic too nevermind lol) your going to follow a lot of the same paths as other artists.

 

I'm glad that Neil Gaiman realized that it was more than possible for the two of them to have the same ideas, cause I don't know where I would be without Harry Potter lol. Also I mean look at that skateboard lol - totally different!

 

Sorry for late response to this- but it's something I've been curious about lately from listening to old eps of WTF & You Made it Weird, and some of Joe Rogan's podcast (I'm not a huge fan of him-- I know he calls people out & kind of police 's comedians)

 

You do see in in comedy a lot of comedians will have the similar jokes or joke premises. Which I understand. People can independently have similar thoughts or come up with similar premises, and probably even more so when you're in the same "field".

But I feel like lately people are quick to jump to the conclusion that certain comedians are "joke-thieves"/ stealing jokes.

 

Like comedians are getting ripped apart now if they have similar joke premises, and I wonder if it's really necessary to be trying to destroy people's careers over stuff like that? I mean maybe if it's like blatantly stealing... seems like it's a hard to define, and then I wonder who should be policing it?

 

I think it's a little much to destroy or try to destroy people's careers if they truly only had the same thought / some similar "jokes" or premises.

 

*I know this does not have to do with Rent anymore ( sorry! ) but it's something I wonder people's opinions about..

[FisterRoboto 7499]

 

Sorry for late response to this- but it's something I've been curious about lately from listening to old eps of WTF & You Made it Weird, and some of Joe Rogan's podcast (I'm not a huge fan of him-- I know he calls people out & kind of police 's comedians)

 

You do see in in comedy a lot of comedians will have the similar jokes or joke premises. Which I understand. People can independently have similar thoughts or come up with similar premises, and probably even more so when you're in the same "field".

But I feel like lately people are quick to jump to the conclusion that certain comedians are "joke-thieves"/ stealing jokes.

 

Like comedians are getting ripped apart now if they have similar joke premises, and I wonder if it's really necessary to be trying to destroy people's careers over stuff like that? I mean maybe if it's like blatantly stealing... seems like it's a hard to define, and then I wonder who should be policing it?

 

I think it's a little much to destroy or try to destroy people's careers if they truly only had the same thought / some similar "jokes" or premises.

 

*I know this does not have to do with Rent anymore ( sorry! ) but it's something I wonder people's opinions about..

I think there's a difference between two comedians having similar ideas and one comedian blatantly stealing a bit from another.

 

For example, people have ripped apart Amy Schumer recently for that video that "proves" she steals jokes because she has a couple minutes that are similar to Patrice O'Neal's (which are similar to things that have been discussed and joked about over and over since Urban Dictionary was a thing). She's had similar jokes to Tammy Pescatelli and Amy Madigan, too, but none of them are such amazingly novel ideas that others haven't thought of them before.

 

On the other hand, if you look at Carlos Mencia, he did whole bits lifted almost word for word from other comedians. It wasn't a matter of "Oh, we had similar ideas." It was clearly him doing someone else's bit. There are other examples, too, like Jay Mohr's SNL sketch or Denis Leary doing Bill Hicks for....pretty much his whole career.

 

So yes, I agree that it's not worth destroying someone's entire career because a couple of jokes are similar, but when someone builds their whole career off of someone else's material, I think that's a bit more of a problem.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

 

I've watched the movie and seen the stage version of Kiss Me Kate and neither productions made me think the Bianca/Lois character was an "unrepentant slut," whatever that means. If I recall correctly, her boyfriend (or fiance?) has a crippling gambling problem, where he actually signs an IOU to another name, so why wouldn't she try to stop him from gambling?

I'm referring to the Always True to You song where she talks about the different men she's met and what she lets them do in exchange for money, furs, jewels, etc.

For instance:

If a custom tailored vet

Asks me out for something wet

When the vet begins to pet, I cry, Hooray!

 

But I'm always true to you, Darlin', in my fashion

Yes, I'm always true to you, Darlin', in my way

 

There's an oil man known as Tex

Who is keen to give me checks

And his checks, I fear, means that Tex is here to stay

 

But I'm always true to you, Darlin', in my fashion

Yes, I'm always true to you, Darlin', in my way

Just seems wrong to me to proclaim fidelity to one man and then turn around and say "Tex is here to stay" because he gives me money. As far as Rent, I was thinking of the GIFs I posted last week where Joanne was complaining about Maureen flirting at their engagement party. Maureen's like "Relax, babe. There will always be ladies flirting with me. If they flirt with me I have to flirt back."