Musical Mondays Week 21 Guys and Dolls

[Cameron H. 23786]

It's Guys and Dolls and multiple, extended Dance Sequences!

 

We watched:

 

[Cam Bert 8145]

I'll echo a little of what Cameron already said on Letterboxd, why let Marlon Brando sing "Lucky Be A Lady?" Now, this is not a faithful adaptation of the Broadway show. Songs were added to give Sinatra more to sing while other songs (personally one of my favourites "I've Never Been in Love Before") were just omitted completely. So if you were changing your movie to better suit the actors why give Brando, talented actor and amateur singer, one of the most iconic songs? Look at Grease. When the movie came out poor Kenickie doesn't get to sing about his car anymore, instead his friend jumps in and does it. Why couldn't Nathan Detroit while passing the dice to Sky to roll sing this song about how much he wants his friend to do well?

[Cameron H. 23786]

I'll echo a little of what Cameron already said on Letterboxd, why let Marlon Brando sing "Lucky Be A Lady?" Now, this is not a faithful adaptation of the Broadway show. Songs were added to give Sinatra more to sing while other songs (personally one of my favourites "I've Never Been in Love Before") were just omitted completely. So if you were changing your movie to better suit the actors why give Brando, talented actor and amateur singer, one of the most iconic songs? Look at Grease. When the movie came out poor Kenickie doesn't get to sing about his car anymore, instead his friend jumps in and does it. Why couldn't Nathan Detroit while passing the dice to Sky to roll sing this song about how much he wants his friend to do well?

 

And it's like the song of the movie. It's basically the movie's thesis statement, but let's not give it to the professional singer. He can just sit in the corner like a goober.

 

Also, I know there are a lot of fans here, but I really didn't like a single character in this movie. They were all kind of a bunch of losers. Like, my protagonists are a couple of petty criminals whose conflict is either "corrupt this woman" or "avoid marrying this woman" and I'm supposed to think, "Well, they get married in the end, so it's all cool."

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

I'll echo a little of what Cameron already said on Letterboxd, why let Marlon Brando sing "Lucky Be A Lady?" Now, this is not a faithful adaptation of the Broadway show. Songs were added to give Sinatra more to sing while other songs (personally one of my favourites "I've Never Been in Love Before") were just omitted completely. So if you were changing your movie to better suit the actors why give Brando, talented actor and amateur singer, one of the most iconic songs? Look at Grease. When the movie came out poor Kenickie doesn't get to sing about his car anymore, instead his friend jumps in and does it. Why couldn't Nathan Detroit while passing the dice to Sky to roll sing this song about how much he wants his friend to do well?

Does Nathan know at that point what Sky has put on the line?

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

 

And it's like the song of the movie. It's basically the movie's thesis statement, but let's not give it to the professional singer. He can just sit in the corner like a goober.

 

Also, I know there are a lot of fans here, but I really didn't like a single character in this movie. They were all kind of a bunch of losers. Like, my protagonists are a couple of petty criminals whose conflict is either "corrupt this woman" or "avoid marrying this woman" and I'm supposed to think, "Well, they get married in the end, so it's all cool."

Two movies in a row of women being held at arm's length for amazingly long periods of time (Adelaide and Miss Mona). Your end statement also lines up for both movies.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

Does Nathan know at that point what Sky has put on the line?

 

They could always write that in. Just because it didn't happen that way in the original, doesn't mean it has to stay that way in the film.

 

All's fair in love and adaptations.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Oh! And from this point forward, I will no longer be using contractions to express my thoughts

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Oh! And from this point forward, I will no longer be using contractions to express my thoughts

I'm so glad to hear it. I've been wanting to mention it for a long time, y'all.

[Cam Bert 8145]

Also, I know there are a lot of fans here, but I really didn't like a single character in this movie. They were all kind of a bunch of losers. Like, my protagonists are a couple of petty criminals whose conflict is either "corrupt this woman" or "avoid marrying this woman" and I'm supposed to think, "Well, they get married in the end, so it's all cool."

 

Not even Nicely Nicely? Maybe I'm bias because that's a role I've played but he has good points. He's a loyal friend and he does sort of have a redemptive arc. At the end I believe he genuinely wishes to improve his life and that's why he joins the mission.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

Not even Nicely Nicely? Maybe I'm bias because that's a role I've played but he has good points. He's a loyal friend and he does sort of have a redemptive arc. At the end I believe he genuinely wishes to improve his life and that's why he joins the mission.

 

He was fine. I do not expect my protagonists to be paragons of virtue, but I did not exactly find them particularly interesting either. The whole Brannigan/craps plot just reminded me of Middle Scool when kids used to sneak around the halls to play Quarters. I honestly could (equally) not care less if they they were going to get their stupid game off the ground or save their souls. I did not want to hang out with any of these turds.

 

And, since I know a lot of you have a personal connection with it, before everyone jumps down my throat, I thought GaD was just fine. It was well-acted and charming in its way, I just did not love it. That is all.

[Cam Bert 8145]

I was trying to find out why "A Bushel and A Peck" was cut and replaced with the cat music number when I came across this:

 

20th Century Fox acquired the film rights to the musical in early 2013, and plan to cast Channing Tatum and Joseph Gordon-Levitt in a remake of Guys and Dolls

 

Thoughts on that casting? Better than Sinatra and Brando?

[Cameron H. 23786]

Thoughts on that casting? Better than Sinatra and Brando?

 

[Cam Bert 8145]

Can't say I disagree with this.

[SaraK 1980]

Its been ages since I've seen this movie, so I had forgotten pretty much everything except for the few songs everyone probably knows. This might be the original She's All That style bet that's now a weird trope.

 

I did not understand why Sister Sarah fell for Sky at all - nothing he did really showed he was a good guy nor that he would become a good guy. I can get being attracted to him, but other than that he doesn't have any real redeeming qualities. This movie takes place in what, like 72 hours? Why was he even going to Havana at all? It seemed like when he got there all he did was tour churches (by moonlight? What time is it?) and get Sister Sarah drunk, then come back to New York like 5 hours later.

 

On the good side, Sit Down You're Rocking the Boat is now stuck in my head and I could not be happier. I love that song.

[SaraK 1980]

Thoughts on that casting? Better than Sinatra and Brando?

 

Can Channing Tatum even sing? JGL I could get behind, but not Channing.

[grudlian. 4725]

One thing I'm curious about is Sinatra really lobbied hard to get the Sky Masterson role. Am I the only one who thinks he's definitely a better Nathan Detroit than Sky? If he were sky, who from the mid 1950s should have been cast as Nathan.

I did not understand why Sister Sarah fell for Sky at all - nothing he did really showed he was a good guy nor that he would become a good guy. I can get being attracted to him, but other than that he doesn't have any real redeeming qualities. This movie takes place in what, like 72 hours? Why was he even going to Havana at all? It seemed like when he got there all he did was tour churches (by moonlight? What time is it?) and get Sister Sarah drunk, then come back to New York like 5 hours later.

This is what kind of rubbed me the wrong way the whole movie. It goes with what Cameron H said earlier about things being fine because, hey, they married those dolls so it's all good now. Sky and Nathan Detroit were jerks at best the whole time to Sarah and Adelaide. So there was a certain grossness to everything (especially Sky getting Sarah drunk). I get this is a movie about petty gangsters and it's 60 years ago. So, the gender roles aren't expected to be modern but ughhh.

 

Not to say I didn't like the movie but I definitely felt weird about these guys being our heroes.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I agree, grudlian. I think Nathan needs to be the older, more world weary one and Sky needs to be younger and sexier. If Sinatra were cast as Sky, I am not sure who would have made a good Nathan. Maybe Don Ameche, Dean Martin, or Tony Curtis?

[tomspanks 9039]

Re: casting, I thought this bit from Wikipedia was interesting.

 

For the movie, Gene Kelly at first seemed a serious candidate for the part but it went to Marlon Brando as a matter of course, partly because MGM would not loan Kelly for the production but mainly because Goldwyn wanted to cast Brando, the world's biggest box office draw by a wide margin at that time. The film ended up being distributed by MGM, Kelly's home studio. Frank Sinatra had coveted the role of Sky Masterson, and relations between him and Brando were strained. Hollywood critic James Bacon quotes Sinatra telling director Joe Mankiewicz, "When Mumbles is through rehearsing, I'll come out". Sinatra had also been considered for the part of Terry Malloy in On the Waterfront; both roles went to Brando.

 

Gene Kelly was 3 years older than Sinatra and 12 years older than Brando.

[Cam Bert 8145]

I agree, grudlian. I think Nathan needs to be the older, more world weary one and Sky needs to be younger and sexier. If Sinatra were cast as Sky, I'm not sure who would have made a good Nathan. Maybe Don Ameche, Dean Martin, or Tony Curtis?

I kinda like Don Ameche as a choice. I always felt Sinatra was too tough and stiff as Nathan. He needs to be a bit more likable. Him and Adelaid are like that old married couple without being a married couple. I think you need a more charming, less tough guy. Jack Lemmon would also be great I think.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I do not really like either Gene Kelley or Jack Lemmon simply because I do not think they project the kind of street savvy, wiseguy attitude you'd need to pull off the part. I agree about Sinatra, though. Half the time he looked and acted like a kid whose mother just called him in for dinner. It was a bit too hang dog.

 

I know I am the one who suggested it, but I am really loving the Ameche choice for the reasons Cam described. I think that character needs to come off charming and likable and I do not think that Sinatra really pulls that off. He is the Chairman of the Board for Christ's sake! Sinatra's natural assertiveness cannot help coming thorough in his performance. He just did not feel like the type of guy to be played for a sap. Kind of like how people say that Trump is a "weak man's idea of a strong man," I feel like Nathan was Sinatra doing a bully's impression of what a loser looks like.

 

"This is what you sound like, nerd! Wah-wah-wah!"

[Cameron H. 23786]

You know who might have been good as Nathan? Bing Crosby.

 

He was charismatic and street smart, but was still able to pull off "down on his luck."

[kateacola 2440]

I do not really like either Gene Kelley or Jack Lemmon simply because I do not think they project the kind of street savvy, wiseguy attitude you'd need to pull off the part. I agree about Sinatra, though. Half the time he looked and acted like a kid whose mother just called him in for dinner. It was a bit too hang dog.

 

 

I would've liked this way better if Gene Kelly was Sky.

[SaraK 1980]

Can we talk about the craps game? I didn't understand how SO many people were involved, but no one wanted to host it. Host it in the barber shop, where every single person wants in! And why wasn't that sewer the first choice for location? Maybe the dice would get lost really easily since they kind of just throw them everywhere and not in a specific area.

 

I think I might be playing craps wrong, but is it generally everyone throws down money and one person just rolls? Don't you have to bet on WHAT he rolls? To be fair, I've never played this kind of backalley craps.

 

It also made me laugh that the police show up, sirens blaring, which the look out guy hears and then warns everyone. The police get all mad that 'someone' tipped them off - dummy, YOU tipped them off. If they had pulled up without sirens, they would have caught everyone!

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

 

 

I would've liked this way better if Gene Kelly was Sky.

 

I love GK, too. And if it were just a question of singing and dancing, I'd agree. My problem is GK just doesn't feel dangerous enough.

[Cam Bert 8145]

I think I might be playing craps wrong, but is it generally everyone throws down money and one person just rolls? Don't you have to bet on WHAT he rolls? To be fair, I've never played this kinda of backalley craps.

Okay, I remember being told this once before so if I get something wrong please correct me. I believe the way it works is the person rolls the dice. Now, the idea is they have to roll that same number again before they "crap" out which is roll a seven. You bet on whether or not the person will succeed or crap out. I think there are other side bets you can make but the main thing is, safe, fail, or success.